It does take a lot of stones to post a theory, well said, and a level head to defend it- just like a dissertation. yes, some of the Heretics' fields of study definitely come out when they post.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I am currently a political science major at a University so I have had to defend a thesis or two I just thought of this idea yesterday and WP suggested I make a thread about it. Usually I am a little more prepared than this haha. I am just waiting for voice to come in here and destroy my speculation. I am updating the OP with information when I think of it.
What makes you think voice will destroy your speculation?
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
It does take a lot of stones to post a theory, well said, and a level head to defend it- just like a dissertation. yes, some of the Heretics' fields of study definitely come out when they post.
Well thank you. The difficulty with my little theory is that it is all speculation. And that is why I said that in the OP because it is just me speculating and try to reason with any actual cannon supporting it, yet at least
Paging markg171 to the front desk!! Didn't you tell me something once re: sacrifices/no sacrifices in relation to heart trees, or was that just about the Starks? I'm getting a memory about discussing Ned cleansing his blade across his lap after executing Gared- which was not done in the vicinity of a heart tree.
Not me. I believe it's Weasel Pie you're thinking of. He often mentions IIRC how Ned cleaning his blade in the black pool is reminiscent of Robb and the statues in the crypts having their swords across their laps which is an indication of the refusal of guest right. Robb does it to Tyrion and the statues due it to wherever the crypts go.
But the north did perform sacrifices to the weirwoods
Ser Bartimus had no interest in the world outside, or indeed anything that had happened since he lost his leg to a riderless horse and a maester’s saw. He had come to love the Wolf’s Den, however, and liked nothing more than to talk about its long and bloody history. The Den was much older than White Harbor, the knight told Davos. It had been raised by King Jon Stark to defend the mouth of the White Knife against raiders from the sea. Many a younger son of the King in the North had made his seat there, many a brother, many an uncle, many a cousin. Some passed the castle to their own sons and grandsons, and offshoot branches of House Stark had arisen; the Greystarks had lasted the longest, holding the Wolf’s Den for five centuries, until they presumed to join the Dreadfort in rebellion against the Starks of Winterfell.
After their fall, the castle had passed through many other hands. House Flint held it for a century, House Locke for almost two. Slates, Longs, Holts, and Ashwoods had held sway here, charged by Winterfell to keep the river safe. Reavers from the Three Sisters took the castle once, making it their toehold in the north. During the wars between Winterfell and the Vale, it was besieged by Osgood Arryn, the Old Falcon, and burned by his son, the one remembered as the Talon. When old King Edrick Stark had grown too feeble to defend his realm, the Wolf’s Den was captured by slavers from the Stepstones. They would brand their captives with hot irons and break them to the whip before shipping them off across the sea, and these same black stone walls bore witness.
“Then a long cruel winter fell,” said Ser Bartimus. “The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard’s great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf’s Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he’d found chained up in the dungeons. It’s said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don’t know winter, and winter don’t know them.”
Davos could not argue with the truth of that. From what he had seen at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, he did not care to know winter either. “What gods do you keep?” he asked the one-legged knight.
“The old ones.” When Ser Bartimus grinned, he looked just like a skull. “Me and mine were here before the Manderlys. Like as not, my own forebears strung those entrails through the tree.”
“I never knew that northmen made blood sacrifice to their heart trees.”
“There’s much and more you southrons do not know about the north,” Ser Bartimus replied.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I am currently a political science major at a University so I have had to defend a thesis or two I just thought of this idea yesterday and WP suggested I make a thread about it. Usually I am a little more prepared than this haha. I am just waiting for voice to come in here and destroy my speculation. I am updating the OP with information when I think of it.
What makes you think voice will destroy your speculation?
Maybe destroy wasn't the best wording haha. I put in the OP that it was all speculation so people wouldn't think that I had supreme cannon supporting this small theory.
@prince of Ghost, sorry if that came off snotty, I'm half asleep. So many people are only taught to defend facts, not ideas. The process of defending a creation can throw them for a loop. Looking forward to your disertation!
What makes you think voice will destroy your speculation?
Maybe destroy wasn't the best wording haha. I put in the OP that it was all speculation so people wouldn't think that I had supreme cannon supporting this small theory.
Voice the Destroyer!! Muahahahaaa
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
@prince of Ghost, sorry if that came off snotty, I'm half asleep. So many people are only taught to defend facts, not ideas. The process of defending a creation can throw them for a loop. Looking forward to your disertation!
You did not come off as snotty at all. I am joke around a lot on here! I will try defending my idea haha, can't garentee how well I will do but I will try! My Capstone Thesis will be in the Spring Semester, luckily haha
Maybe destroy wasn't the best wording haha. I put in the OP that it was all speculation so people wouldn't think that I had supreme cannon supporting this small theory.
Voice the Destroyer!! Muahahahaaa
Do your work friend I know you don't have much to work with on this one but I know you will do your best
I don't think voice's m.o. Is to destroy theories, but voice, we can have a TBC if I'm wrong and just putting words in your mouth . Voice is an academic, so I think work spills over and he will debate- if he sees something he doesn't agree with. But all of us do that, not because we want to rip up an idea to shreds.
For me, personally, my issue is when hypotheticals are presented as fact. Just admit they're your ideas. One of the reasons I joked earlier about markg171 convincing me the sky is purple is because if you notice, he always has text to show when he wants to prove his point. He and I have disagreed in the past on how we interpreted the text, but he doesn't present his ideas as facts, they're still speculative, as you have mentioned until we get confirmation. (We also don't get bent out of shape with each other when that happens, either)
We may not always agree with each other, but Heretics rarely do.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I don't think voice's m.o. Is to destroy theories, but voice, we can have a TBC if I'm wrong and just putting words in your mouth . Voice is an academic, so I think work spills over and he will debate- if he sees something he doesn't agree with. But all of us do that, not because we want to rip up an idea to shreds.
For me, personally, my issue is when hypotheticals are presented as fact. Just admit they're your ideas. One of the reasons I joked earlier about markg171 convincing me the sky is purple is because if you notice, he always has text to show when he wants to prove his point. He and I have disagreed in the past on how we interpreted the text, but he doesn't present his ideas as facts, they're still speculative, as you have mentioned until we get confirmation. (We also don't get bent out of shape with each other when that happens, either)
We may not always agree with each other, but Heretics rarely do.
I apologize if my words earlier were taken the wrong way. I think Voice does a good job of critiquing theories. Having canon as reference is awesome for theories. I made sure I put in the OP that it was all speculation because that's what it is. Now if I had not said that it was all speculation on my part I would not have been offended at all if members would have pointed out that there is no canonical evidence for the theory. Critiquing theories is great and is most welcome to me. I also want members to share their thoughts on what I have speculated!
Post by Direwolf Blitzer on Jul 28, 2015 13:14:13 GMT
I liked JNR's theory in an abstract sense. The parallels between the shadows and the Others are undeniable. I'm just not at all sold on a literal connection between what Stannis does and what we see in the north.
Though having men bear ultimate responsibility for their own problems does seem a GRRM-ish thing.
I'm leaning toward the unlisted "none of the above" option. I mean, I'm totally on board with blood magic being part of the WW breeding ritual or whatever, but I don't believe for a second that the shadows have anything to do with it.
Back on Heresy a few of us had a discussion about the "types" of magic and whether they were all independent magics, magics sharing a single origin but diverging into different forms along the way, or the types being in one single magical pool but merely used in different ways.
I lean more toward #2 with a smidge of #1 thrown in....ice magic and shadow magic share a root system but have evolved into their own 'things' that happen to oppose each other. GRRM is clearly fond of inverse parallels and this is just another one, IMO. Getting into shadowbabies that take corporeal form once they get north of the equator and turn into dessicated WWs with Predator armor is just murking up the story waaaaaaay to much for me. I apply the KISS principle here - they are two different things that happen to utilize similar practices, and most of the origin and/or the purpose will remain unknown because IT'S MAGIC.
The Shadows would be combined with the bodies of the person/baby to form the White Walkers.
I suggested something very similar many Heresies ago. My idea was that a Mel-like icy-woman was serving as queen of a race akin to ants or bees, being cared for by her drones. These drones bring her human infants that she does some unspeakable thing to in order to change them into white walkers. I imagined the process, at that time, as an act of reverse birth (which is kind of cool, considering the 1993 letter and "neverborn" term that came later).
Rather than exiting the Icy Woman's womb, they were being placed inside of it. That's why she requires newborns.
Anyway, it was rather crackpot to begin with, then took another leap towards the boobyhatch when I speculated that a "father" for the infant would then appear as she writhed in the Ice.
Somewhat sexual, somewhat child-labor, all carnal and quite scary for 7 year old Bran to witness when he looked north and north and north.
It would not matter who the parents are of the baby/ person being sacrificed. All that matters is that it is human blood. It does not necessarily have to be King's Blood or Craster's Blood etc.
The Shadows would go into the body of the baby/person and take it over as the body is transformed.
The show certainly portrayed it as something like that. It would be something if there were Child-Others. One more disturbing faction for the Watch to face...
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."