Are we employing the 2D vs 3D argument here? I just read Samwell I, and I can see how one could deduce the Other might be a shadow at first glance. He's sword thin and doesn't make footprints in the snow. However, when Sam kills it, and it melts, it leaves bones behind that end up melting, too. I don't think shadow assassins have bones, so while I can see a parallel, as they are both likely products of magic, I don't think they are one and the same.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Do they want to kill all life like Old Nan says, or is Winter just their natural environment and the are fighting to protect their own?
I'm mostly responding to bump this thread, but I'd point out that it isn't only Old Nan who seems to view the Others this way. The wetnurses of Westeros have nourished all lordlings and young ladies with the tales. And, while I very much agree that Winter is their native habitat, I would argue that Winter itself is not "natural" in this universe.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
How is it not 'natural'? Oh, I understand that the long time each season has not being in the natural cycle of things, but I would argue that the winter here is entirely natural and that the Others are taking advantage of it. Much like the whole of Westeros taking advantage of the autumn to plant more crops and harvest more goods.
Sure, but even the smallfolk are taking advantage of unnaturally long autumns.
I also get what you're saying about the type of winter around the Others being supernatural (not as in comics or films definition of supernatural) but again I think they are taking advantage of a natural phenomenon.
There is a supernatural coldness that accompanies the Others, but that's not what I'm talking about. Rather than be governed by natural processes and the laws of physics (i.e., the angle of the planet's axis in relation to its sun), all seasons on Planetos are governed by magical forces - even summer, spring, and autumn.
Foolishly, perhaps, I just thought the axis took a really long time to move and with the loss of that second moon, it made the seasons (movement of the planet) irregular.
Not at all foolish in my opinion, good ser. I worked on many-a-model in attempt of explaining Planetos' seasons, only to have the rug pulled out from under such efforts by the author himself. A few years later, LmL revived the effort, and I lent him a hand in spite of the missing rug and author's contradiction. (I do not believe there was ever more than one moon, and attribute the Qartheen tale to a solar eclipse story that grew with the telling, and thus LmL and I have been doomed to disagree ever since. LOL)
But, that hasn't stopped my analytical, stargazing brain from wanting a physical explanation of Planetos' magical seasons. Even if that physical explanation itself is explained by magic.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
This post assumes that JNR's Theory on the Origin of the Others is mostly true.
Anybody got a link to JNR's theory? I'd like to review it.
I have the theory, but not a link. Here's my own synopsis:
In short, whatever the Stannis-shadows are, the Others also are. That's the heart of it, one way or the other. The idea being that Martin's descriptions of Others and Stannis-shadows are substantially similar; and similar enough that certain conclusions about the nature and origin of the Others may be drawn on the basis of what is known about Stannis-shadows. For example, that the Others were shadow assassins cast by Starks during the Age of Heroes... including shadows cast by Night's King himself. In other words, partial souls of ancient Starks. Thus the enemy has always been both Other and Self.
Obviously, it's a theory. The idea is not stated, or shown, explicitly in the text. But it is a theory based on evidence. Primarily, that evidence appears in Martin's use of a common set of traits in his presentation of both Others and Stannis-shadows:
Both are called shadows, and described as shadows might be described. (Faceless, weightless, shifting, sliding or gliding in movement, etc.)
Both are humanoid.
Both are cruel and murderous, killers without mercy.
Both carry swords, which cut through metal armor as if it were cloth.
Both are magical in nature.
Both are associated with wind.
Both are associated with extreme and unexpected cold.
Both are associated with male donors of seed and soul.
Both may be stymied by the use of magical wards.
Are there differences between the two? Yes, of course. But the list of similarities is highly suggestive, and impressive enough that (in my opinion) it's worth asking whether those differences might fit with the theory, within the bounds of canon.
So far, for the most part, I think most objections can be explained within the context of theory and canon - though such explanations will be more or less satisfying, depending on who you ask. Regardless, the evidence of similarities between Others and Stannis-shadows remains, and is substantial.
As far as theories go, I think this explanation for the Others is a very good one.
"Anticlimax is, of course, the warp and way of things. Real life seldom structures a decent denouement." - Martin Silenus
To clarify, that's basically just a cut and paste of a post I wrote in reply to Voice, six months ago. The theory originally came up at Sable Hall in a completely different thread - one I'd started for discussing magic. @serduncan said something interesting about how curious it was that someone so literally hot like Mel would birth something as remarkably cold as the shadow that killed Renly. So I proposed a basic outline of this theory - it was something that had been simmering in the back of my mind for a while. That post triggered JNR's thread - in which he shared his much more developed theory and explanation.
The synopsis above came at the end that thread, and condensed everything down into something digestible that made sense to me.
"Anticlimax is, of course, the warp and way of things. Real life seldom structures a decent denouement." - Martin Silenus
Anybody got a link to JNR's theory? I'd like to review it.
I have quotes of JNR's original summary of the theory:
1. Shadowbinding existed in ancient Westeros, and was used as a way of gaining political power, just as Stannis uses it 2. Shadows assassins are creatures of supernatural cold 3. Shadow assassins that were born outside cold climates fulfilled their initial mission to kill but then died 4. Shadow assassins in the North, on the other hand, did not die instead gravitating naturally to the coldest place, which we know as the Heart of Winter, and forming bodies of ice, and developing consciousness in other ways (such as language) 5. The Others are intrinsically evil and murderous, even though GRRM prefers gray to black and white... because each Other was quite literally born to kill
Both are associated with male donors of seed and soul.
Agreed with most of your thoughts above, but would point out that we do not know the quoted to be true, strictly speaking.
While Stannis' shadows were certainly derived from his seed and soul, we have scant textual evidence the Others are in any way connected to such ingredients. The 13th Lord Commander gave his seed and soul to a woman that certainly appeared Otherish, but we do not yet know if she was in fact an Other. And, the Others had already been around long before the 13th LC's fling.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Both are associated with male donors of seed and soul.
Agreed with most of your thoughts above, but would point out that we do not know the quoted to be true, strictly speaking.
While Stannis' shadows were certainly derived from his seed and soul, we have scant textual evidence the Others are in any way connected to such ingredients. The 13th Lord Commander gave his seed and soul to a woman that certainly appeared Otherish, but we do not yet know if she was in fact an Other. And, the Others had already been around long before the 13th LC's fling.
Well, we do have that statement about giving his seed and soul to the "corpse queen." And that certainly seems to be what's going on with Stannis. I think the tricky part with ancient history in these books is that it often contains truths... but isn't always completely reliable. I'd guess Night's King's woman was not actually an Other, but was portrayed as one in part because the origin and nature of Others is not generally understood - and never has been, outside of the nobles and kings who've used them. Beyond that, it communicates a certain political spin... blaming the woman, and deflecting responsibility from House Stark.
Beyond that, it communicates a certain political spin... blaming the woman, and deflecting responsibility from House Stark
Which is also reminiscent of what happened in Duskendale following Aerys's being held hostage. Everyone put the majority of the blame on his foreign wife and her punishment was certainly much more cruel than the others. I've seen speculated that parallels could be found between the two, but haven't yet tried drawing any myself.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I only really have reservations about statement 4.
Glad we agree on 4 Snowy, but the others are not exactly supported by canon:
1. Shadowbinding existed in ancient Westeros, and was used as a way of gaining political power, just as Stannis uses it
If shadowbinding existed in ancient Westeros, no doubt it would be used as a way of gaining political power. But, we have no evidence shadowbinding existed in ancient Westeros.
Considering its Asshai'i origins, it seems unlikely the craft would have made its way to Westeros. Not impossible of course, but not exactly likely.
2. Shadows assassins are creatures of supernatural cold
There's cold and Cold, imo. While Renly felt cold once he was stabbed, and Cat certainly felt a shudder, she did not describe a sensation like her internal organs freezing, like Samwell. We saw no frost, nor did the wind stop, as we saw in the Game Prologue.
3. Shadow assassins that were born outside cold climates fulfilled their initial mission to kill but then died
Zero evidence that climate in any way affects the behavior of shadow assassins, nor that they do anything but kill and vanish. I'm hesitant to say they truly live - even by inhuman definitions - as their existence seems entirely tethered to their sire. The shadow was Stannis' shadow quite literally.
We agree on 4, so moving on to 5...
5. The Others are intrinsically evil and murderous, even though GRRM prefers gray to black and white... because each Other was quite literally born to kill
We've heard the Others make jokes and laugh. As wolfmaid7 used to point out quite often, we've yet to see them attack unless arms have been bared against them. It seems unlikely to me that GRRM would place the Others in such a pivotal and climactic role in his Song if they are simply evil for evil's sake. I'm thinking their purpose will be revealed to be a bit more nuanced, though in the end it makes no matter because I see the Others as terraforming antibodies. Whether they are intrinsically evil, or nobly exterminating life, it's bad news for the warm blooded southerners.
Well, we do have that statement about giving his seed and soul to the "corpse queen." And that certainly seems to be what's going on with Stannis.
We do. And, it does. But, the Others had already existed prior to NK's relationship with the corpse queen.
If you've ever read my hierarchy stuff, you know I'm playing devil's advocate a bit. I think she was an Other, or near enough it makes no matter. But, the text is not clear on this. She may have been more akin to Symeon Star Eyes. Blazfemur will tell you she was the 13th LC's direwolf. LOL. She could have been a pale woman of the Barrowlands. And lastly, her similarities to Melisandre have long been discussed in Heresy. None of these can be discounted.
I prefer to think of her as a female Other, but that is only an interpretation. It is yet another interpretation to assume a relationship with such a woman created anything resembling an Other. It isn't crackpot to assume it did, given the wording of the text surrounding their sacrifices and Stannis' shadows.
But such an origin produces the same problem as BC's Craster's Sons interpretation: each requires some man (or men) to be laying with a woman (or women) and their offspring somehow turning into Others, while neglecting the surprise arrival of the Others for the first time in the darkness of the Long Night.
The Others arrived in force, sweeping over entire holdfasts. They were not only not-children, they were organized. Thus, someone organized them. While I think they certainly make use of the children men sire, I do not think they themselves are sired by men.
I'd guess Night's King's woman was not actually an Other, but was portrayed as one in part because the origin and nature of Others is not generally understood - and never has been, outside of the nobles and kings who've used them.
Beyond that, it communicates a certain political spin... blaming the woman, and deflecting responsibility from House Stark.
It might, but I don't really get that impression from Bran's retelling of Old Nan's story. I think it places all the blame on the man. While the woman was his downfall, he chased her, caught her, and loved her. He was the initiator of the relationship. He abducted her in a way not unlike the tradition of the Free Folk. He was (literally) the Thief in the Moonmaid. :::
Last Edit: Dec 20, 2015 18:44:46 GMT by voice: *It, not "I" to begin the last para :)
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."