I was just listening the the scene where Davos smuggles Melisandre under Storm's End to birth Stannis's black shadow love-shild and was wondering why the ward didn't include underneath?
Good question. I could probably come up with a couple of ideas, but in general, this seems like a potential weak point in Martin's story. Why, for instance, wouldn't the Others simply go around the Wall - either by boat, or just walking/gliding over the water? Surely the wards in the Wall don't extend infinitely along the horizontal plane...
"Anticlimax is, of course, the warp and way of things. Real life seldom structures a decent denouement." - Martin Silenus
was just listening the the scene where Davos smuggles Melisandre under Storm's End to birth Stannis's black shadow love-shild and was wondering why the ward didn't include underneath?
I was under the impression that it was also warded underneath. I'm pretty sure that Mel verifies with Davos that they have passed beneath where the wall would be before she births the shadow.
Good question. I could probably come up with a couple of ideas, but in general, this seems like a potential weak point in Martin's story. Why, for instance, wouldn't the Others simply go around the Wall - either by boat, or just walking/gliding over the water? Surely the wards in the Wall don't extend infinitely along the horizontal plane...
Maybe. But there's nothing in that scene that would contradict the ward continuing vertically parallel to the wall. That's why Davos had to sail Mel there in the first place, so that she was inside the barrier of the ward before spawning the shadow. The shadow itself was just unable to pass the ward independently.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Yep, it did. But that gate was already past where the wall would be above ground. It was just added defenses.
Yeah, it's interesting how much information we get about the shadow in just that "instant" Davos sees the thing. Conveniently, Davos had described the gate in the tunnel just a moment before:
"Have we passed within the walls?" ... "Yes. Beneath. But we can go no farther. The portcullis goes all the way to the bottom. And the bars are too closely spaced for even a child to squeeze through."
Then Mel (whose greatest sorcery may be the ability to decide exactly where and when she goes into labor) pushes "the whole of the shadow... out into the world," and Davos sees:
the shadow "twist between the bars of the portcullis;" and
then "race across the surface of the water."
Given these two abilities, it seems like Lady Dyanna must be right... that the ward extends downward from the castle wall even inside the tunnel. Otherwise, you'd think Mel could have birthed the shadow on land and sent it "racing across the surface of the water" to the tunnel without Davos' help. Furthermore, the need to pass "within the walls" before Mel births the shadow implies that proximity wasn't the issue. In other words, it's not just that the shadow can only cross short distances over water - it's that the shadow cannot cross that magical boundary at all, under its own power. Mel had to carry it past the barrier, and make sure it was released inside the walls to begin with.
Reminds me a little bit of Othor and Jafer, who clearly were already wighted at the time they were found beyond-the-Wall, were carried through the Wall at Castle Black on "crude slings" fashioned of branches, and then rose during the night on the south side of the Wall.
Wait, you've confused me now. Are you saying the wights are also shadows? Or is that they contain the same animating force the shadows have? Because the cave is clearly warded against wights and the Black Gate seems to be as well, since Coldhands can't pass their either. But perhaps equating the two wards on that basis might not be the soundest of grounds, since we don't exactly know what is animating Coldhands.
Same animating force, perhaps. There are at least a few places where wights are described or identified as shadows - and while I'm not really satisfied on the precise relationship between Others and wights, I do find those descriptions suggestive.
I also think it's a very good bet that Others cannot pass the Wall, despite the fact that we haven't yet had a test case. Seems like something we can deduce from the things we know - including (1) the observed inability of wights (and Coldhands) to cross warded boundaries, (2) received wisdom passed on through Old Nan, listing the various monsters that "cannot pass" the Wall, (3) Mel's comments regarding "spells woven into the stone" that no shadow can pass and, of course, (4) the list of common traits identifying Others and shadow assassins (see above).
Also, the simple fact that there was once something so frightening and dangerous that folks built a big ass Wall of ice, stone, and spells for protection on the off-chance it ever came back.
Yep, it did. But that gate was already past where the wall would be above ground. It was just added defenses.
Yeah, it's interesting how much information we get about the shadow in just that "instant" Davos sees the thing. Conveniently, Davos had described the gate in the tunnel just a moment before:
"Have we passed within the walls?" ... "Yes. Beneath. But we can go no farther. The portcullis goes all the way to the bottom. And the bars are too closely spaced for even a child to squeeze through."
Then Mel (whose greatest sorcery may be the ability to decide exactly where and when she goes into labor) pushes "the whole of the shadow... out into the world," and Davos sees:
the shadow "twist between the bars of the portcullis;" and
then "race across the surface of the water."
Given these two abilities, it seems like Lady Dyanna must be right... that the ward extends downward from the castle wall even inside the tunnel. Otherwise, you'd think Mel could have birthed the shadow on land and sent it "racing across the surface of the water" to the tunnel without Davos' help. Furthermore, the need to pass "within the walls" before Mel births the shadow implies that proximity wasn't the issue. In other words, it's not just that the shadow can only cross short distances over water - it's that the shadow cannot cross that magical boundary at all, under its own power. Mel had to carry it past the barrier, and make sure it was released inside the walls to begin with.
Yes, I think this is right, and I think I know why the sea-tunnel exists: Storms End's first queen was a sea-goddess's daughter. She left herself a way out of the wards. Otherwise she herself would be trapped within like a selkie without her skin.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the wildlings are the decedents of the Others and that they are the ones that conjure white walkers using blood sacrifice, and the reason they're so desperate to get beyond the Wall is so they can create white walkers on the south side of the Wall. Melisandre told Jon that his true enemies were those that smiled to his face and sharpened their knives behind his back. This would suggest that the real enemies aren't really the obvious ones like Ser Alliser Thorne and Bowen Marsh who have never hidden their dislike of Jon.
For some reason that Mel quote makes me think of Bloodraven and the Children of the Forest. What if they are the evil ones and not the Others? :::
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
I also think it's a very good bet that Others cannot pass the Wall, despite the fact that we haven't yet had a test case. Seems like something we can deduce from the things we know - including (1) the observed inability of wights (and Coldhands) to cross warded boundaries, (2) received wisdom passed on through Old Nan, listing the various monsters that "cannot pass" the Wall, (3) Mel's comments regarding "spells woven into the stone" that no shadow can pass and, of course, (4) the list of common traits identifying Others and shadow assassins (see above).
A few thoughts on this, and @serduncan's point. We know that Coldhands could not enter the Black Gate, nor BR's cave. But we do not know whether or not he could enter the oak and iron gate at Castle Black, through which Othor and Jafer were easily escorted. I agree with the sentiment, just want to point out the barriers are not yet clear from the text alone.
Also, the simple fact that there was once something so frightening and dangerous that folks built a big ass Wall of ice, stone, and spells for protection on the off-chance it ever came back.
This seems to point against the idea that the Others, and possibly even wights, cannot pass the Wall. If the magical wards alone bar their passage, why build it higher?
Yes, I think this is right, and I think I know why the sea-tunnel exists: Storms End's first queen was a sea-goddess's daughter. She left herself a way out of the wards. Otherwise she herself would be trapped within like a selkie without her skin.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the wildlings are the decedents of the Others and that they are the ones that conjure white walkers using blood sacrifice, and the reason they're so desperate to get beyond the Wall is so they can create white walkers on the south side of the Wall. Melisandre told Jon that his true enemies were those that smiled to his face and sharpened their knives behind his back. This would suggest that the real enemies aren't really the obvious ones like Ser Alliser Thorne and Bowen Marsh who have never hidden their dislike of Jon.
I agree about real enemies not being obvious, but this scenario seems very unlikely to me. The wildlings prefer autonomy, but have unified on a mass exodus in order to get away from their homelands. As they flee for their lives, their own family members are being wightified. If they have white walkers at their beck and call, why not use them when attacking the Wall, or against wights?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I agree with the sentiment, just want to point out the barriers are not yet clear from the text alone.
Right. I think it's rather interesting how Martin provides certain information that is likely related, but provides it in such a way that we still have to draw our own conclusions. And the wards are a great example of that. We know there are wards at Storm's End, the Wall, and at Leaf's cave. Mel's shadows cannot pass the wards at Storm's End. Coldhands cannot pass the wards at the Wall or at Leaf's cave. Wights cannot pass the wards at Leaf's cave... but we've already seen 2 wights rise south of the Wall after having been carried through a gate during daylight hours. Also, it can be surmised that the Wall was originally intended to protect against Others... but to our knowledge, we haven't had a test case in the last 8,000 years.
It feels like a logic problem. A set of statements that are related, but incomplete, describing the nature and effect of wards. And Martin's inviting us to fill in gaps, to see if we can figure out the rest.
This seems to point against the idea that the Others, and possibly even wights, cannot pass the Wall. If the magical wards alone bar their passage, why build it higher?
I think the answer to this is that, like the spells woven into the stones at Storm's End, the wards at the wall are "ancient, [and] forgotten." Likewise, the Others themselves have been written off, over the course of 8,000 years. So the Wall was built higher over time, and castles were added all along the Wall, because the Night's Watch had "forgotten its true purpose," and "lost sight of the true enemy" -- as Jeor Mormont realizes after fleeing the Fist.
Also, it can be surmised that the Wall was originally intended to protect against Others... but to our knowledge, we haven't had a test case in the last 8,000 years.
It feels like a logic problem. A set of statements that are related, but incomplete, describing the nature and effect of wards. And Martin's inviting us to fill in gaps, to see if we can figure out the rest.
Sure, as ever. Just wondering aloud (with my fingers?) if there might be some caveat that might negate the generalization. Othor and Jafer did pass through the Wall. Even more curious, whatever force animates them was not encumbered by it.
I think the answer to this is that, like the spells woven into the stones at Storm's End, the wards at the wall are "ancient, [and] forgotten." Likewise, the Others themselves have been written off, over the course of 8,000 years. So the Wall was built higher over time, and castles were added all along the Wall, because the Night's Watch had "forgotten its true purpose," and "lost sight of the true enemy" -- as Jeor Mormont realizes after fleeing the Fist.
"the Wall was much smaller when first raised. It took hundreds of years to complete and thousands to reach it's present height."
This makes a lot of sense, and I think would confirms my argument that the vows of the Night's Watch predate the Wall. Will have to toss at BC sometime. LOL
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
For some reason that Mel quote makes me think of Bloodraven and the Children of the Forest. What if they are the evil ones and not the Others?
Well, Jon hasn't met nor even knows about Bloodraven and the Children, so how could that be an enemy that smiles to his face?
Fair enough, they haven't met Jon but Bran. Remember Mel also sees them in her fire as servants of the enemy or something to that regard. Unless I a remembering it wrong. Which certainly is a possibility.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Most definitely. I have long thought that some eastern emissaries or maybe just migrants brought along some beliefs and knowledge that were pertinent to the times of the Long Night.
I lean towards the latter, but definitely agree. Blood sacrifices seem particularly suspect as a tradition that came with the FM.
Either that or the survivors of the LN moved east with tales of the Cold war in Westeros lending to the legends and lore of the Long Night heroes.
On this, I believe the Long Night affected all of Planetos, just not as dramatically. I think the origin and resolution of the Long Night is entirely Westerosi, and that the tales of battle and the LH migrated east. The tales grew with the telling, spreading like many games of telephone, and were incorporated into regional beliefs and lore...eventually becoming such myths as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, Eldric Shadowchaser, Lightbringer, tptwp, etc.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
The ASOIAF story is one of dualities, and with BeautifulBacon's latest Marvel-ous post, it appears Jon is the Dark Knight and he will wield the black sword of fire known as "Ice". It makes me think that the Starks and Daynes were positioned at opposite ends of the realm to protect from respective magics. The Starks are perhaps in reality a "fire" family with a weapon of fire to protect the realm from ice magic, and the Daynes are in reality an "ice" family with a weapon of ice to protect the realm from fire magic. The Starks are frozen fire as well as their ancestral blade Ice.
Winterfell itself is built upon the crater the meteor made and the heated water coursing through it's walls comes from the heat of the meteor. Ice will be found in the heart of the meteor in the lower level of the crypts.
The blade Dawn which seems alive with light is actually an ice weapon which reflects the light. Too bad no one had it on hand to kill Stannis' shadows.
Possible, but we really don't have any evidence of a meteor falling at Winterfell, and meteors don't create hot springs. I think it's more likely the springs are fed by more typical thermal/volcanic activity (a sleeping dragon). And I think Dawn is the original Ice.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
The ASOIAF story is one of dualities, and with BeautifulBacon's latest Marvel-ous post, it appears Jon is the Dark Knight and he will wield the black sword of fire known as "Ice". It makes me think that the Starks and Daynes were positioned at opposite ends of the realm to protect from respective magics. The Starks are perhaps in reality a "fire" family with a weapon of fire to protect the realm from ice magic, and the Daynes are in reality an "ice" family with a weapon of ice to protect the realm from fire magic. The Starks are frozen fire as well as their ancestral blade Ice.
Winterfell itself is built upon the crater the meteor made and the heated water coursing through it's walls comes from the heat of the meteor. Ice will be found in the heart of the meteor in the lower level of the crypts.
The blade Dawn which seems alive with light is actually an ice weapon which reflects the light. Too bad no one had it on hand to kill Stannis' shadows.
Funny, but from what I was reading, Dane Whitman, was more Arthur Dayne than Jon--at least that's how I interpreted BB's post. I might be wrong, though.
ETA: And now with post #400 I'm Theon? I go from Davos to Theon?! *eyes the mods*