This definitely sounds up my alley kinglittlefinger . I'll dig in asap. Is it posted here?
Only on Reddit for now, mainly for formatting/length reasons. I may tweak it some and re-post it here at some point after reading some of the theories here. I think I can intersect a lot of it with ideas from here, especially regarding Tywin and some Tower of Joy stuff. I think it would really round it all out if/when I get a chance and a new bout of inspiration.
Looking forward to any reworking. I really have to reevaluate my thoughts on Jon Arryn since he is likely one of the masterminds behind this. Rereading this weekend to rethink it.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
This is a really good read. My personal fav bit is when it suggests that Littlefinger was the one that told Brandon that Lyanna had "gone off" with Rhaegar. I'm so on board with this. I had the same thought myself a few months ago, the poetic elegance is too much for me to resist, icymi, that's kinda my thing The elegance of a theory will almost always trounce "facts" or "textual evidence". I think that only when you take a step back and remember that this all came out of one dude's mind it becomes easier to see the big picture, story-wise. So to return to LF as the dude who basically started Robert's Rebellion, it's a hanging curve ball, belt high. Swing away Georgie, swing away.
Honestly people think Baelish is behind everything. Next you're going to tell me you believe the theory he is working with the Other's
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
I think that Barristan seeing Ashara's eyes in Dany is a red herring.
Seeing Ashara's specific eyes could be a red herring, but there's no doubt that they're the only two females ever said to have violet eyes
"A gift from the Magister Illyrio," Viserys said, smiling. Her brother was in a high mood tonight. "The color will bring out the violet in your eyes. And you shall have gold as well, and jewels of all sorts. Illyrio has promised. Tonight you must look like a princess."
That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.
They do at minimum have the exact same colour of eyes. Barristan might be taking things a step further, but they both do have violet eyes, and they're the only two characters to be specifically said to have violet eyes. The connection is definitely there in the eye colour as they're the only two with those eyes.
Which given that there's always a point made about specific shades of people's eyes, and the fact that Dany, Rhaegar, and Viserys have 3 different eye colours despite supposedly being 3 siblings from two parents with at most two different eye colours, something's off there. You really should expect there to be only 2 shades among these three siblings.
where in the HELL did they find winter roses around Harrenhal for the crown if it was a spontaneous decision?
Well keep in mind that isn't wasn't really a spontaneous decision. A lot of fans like to think that Rhaegar found blue roses and crowned Lyanna with them for whatever reason, but we know that the tournament started off with a queen of love and beauty in Lord Whent's daughter
"The daughter of the great castle reigned as queen of love and beauty when the tourney opened. Five champions had sworn to defend her crown; her four brothers of Harrenhal, and her famous uncle, a white knight of the Kingsguard."
Her champions all fall, which means she gets cast down as queen of love and beauty. Which makes me think that Rhaegar simply gave Lyanna the crown that Lord Whent's daughter started off the tourney with.
Would the Bael symbolism have been caught by those in attendance if Jon, a northerner, wasn't even aware of it until Ygritte told him the story?
I know I just said that Rhaegar probably just gave Lyanna the crown that Lord Whent's daughter had, but at the same time there might not necessarily have even needed anybody to know any Bael symbolism in the crown given that Ned dreams of reaching for the crown that day and finding thorns hidden inside
Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.
Assuming Ned actually was accurately reflecting on the events that day in his dream, then Rhaegar gave Lyanna a crown that looked pretty on the outside, but that only the wearer or those close to her would realize carried a sinister threat in the form of the thorns hidden away inside.
In which case if Rhaegar did give such a crown (which I'd have to assume probably wasn't the same crown Lord Whent's daughter was wearing), then none of the northerners really need to know the Bael story. Ned found hidden thorns in the crown, the message is pretty clear from Rhaegar that "I'm playing nice in public, but privately fuck off" or something like that as nobody else but they would realize the crown had been specifically prepared to prick the wearer while looking pretty on the outside (and ain't that a complete allusion to Rhaegar)
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I think that Barristan seeing Ashara's eyes in Dany is a red herring.
Seeing Ashara's specific eyes could be a red herring, but there's no doubt that they're the only two females ever said to have violet eyes
"A gift from the Magister Illyrio," Viserys said, smiling. Her brother was in a high mood tonight. "The color will bring out the violet in your eyes. And you shall have gold as well, and jewels of all sorts. Illyrio has promised. Tonight you must look like a princess."
That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.
They do at minimum have the exact same colour of eyes. Barristan might be taking things a step further, but they both do have violet eyes, and they're the only two characters to be specifically said to have violet eyes. The connection is definitely there in the eye colour as they're the only two with those eyes.
Which given that there's always a point made about specific shades of people's eyes, and the fact that Dany, Rhaegar, and Viserys have 3 different eye colours despite supposedly being 3 siblings from two parents with at most two different eye colours, something's off there. You really should expect there to be only 2 shades among these three siblings.
where in the HELL did they find winter roses around Harrenhal for the crown if it was a spontaneous decision?
Well keep in mind that isn't wasn't really a spontaneous decision. A lot of fans like to think that Rhaegar found blue roses and crowned Lyanna with them for whatever reason, but we know that the tournament started off with a queen of love and beauty in Lord Whent's daughter
"The daughter of the great castle reigned as queen of love and beauty when the tourney opened. Five champions had sworn to defend her crown; her four brothers of Harrenhal, and her famous uncle, a white knight of the Kingsguard."
Her champions all fall, which means she gets cast down as queen of love and beauty. Which makes me think that Rhaegar simply gave Lyanna the crown that Lord Whent's daughter started off the tourney with.
Would the Bael symbolism have been caught by those in attendance if Jon, a northerner, wasn't even aware of it until Ygritte told him the story?
I know I just said that Rhaegar probably just gave Lyanna the crown that Lord Whent's daughter had, but at the same time there might not necessarily have even needed anybody to know any Bael symbolism in the crown given that Ned dreams of reaching for the crown that day and finding thorns hidden inside
Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.
Assuming Ned actually was accurately reflecting on the events that day in his dream, then Rhaegar gave Lyanna a crown that looked pretty on the outside, but that only the wearer or those close to her would realize carried a sinister threat in the form of the thorns hidden away inside.
In which case if Rhaegar did give such a crown (which I'd have to assume probably wasn't the same crown Lord Whent's daughter was wearing), then none of the northerners really need to know the Bael story. Ned found hidden thorns in the crown, the message is pretty clear from Rhaegar that "I'm playing nice in public, but privately fuck off" or something like that as nobody else but they would realize the crown had been specifically prepared to prick the wearer while looking pretty on the outside (and ain't that a complete allusion to Rhaegar)
So you think Dany is Ashara's daughter? That is what I meant by red herring.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
A little bird directed me here. Love that this made it outside of Reddit, really interested to hear your guys' thoughts. Please don't hold back, I'm much more interested in the discussion than being right on everything.
Ho. Le. Shit.
Most of the Southron Ambitions theory is well known, and I did a write up outlining much of my thoughts on this part in an old post HERE if you want to read it. It's not mandatory, as I will recap again here what we know of the time period leading up to the Tournament of Harrenhal in regards to the alliances being made by a few of the great houses.
•Rickard Stark betrothed his heir, Brandon, to Hoster Tully’s eldest daughter, Catelyn.
•Rickard Stark fostered his second son, Eddard, with Jon Arryn in the Vale.
•Rickard Stark had an aunt that married into House Royce and had three daughters, all of whom married Vale lords.
•Rickard Stark betrothed his daughter, Lyanna, to Jon Arryn's ward and the Lord of the Stormlands, Robert Baratheon.
•Jon Arryn’s heir, Elbert, was a close friend to Brandon Stark, indicating he may have been fostered at Winterfell.
•Hoster Tully agrees to foster Petyr Baelish, son of a minor Vale lord that distinguished himself in the War of the Ninepenny Kings.
•Hoster Tully enters into preliminary dowry negotiations with Tywin Lannister in order to marry Jaime Lannister to his daughter, Lysa.
•Hoster Tully attempted to marry his brother Brynden to a lady from House Redwyne.
•Hoster Tully's mother (or possibly sister) Celia was betrothed to the heir to the Iron Throne, Jaehaerys Targaryen, before he spurned her for his sister Shaera.
This last revelation came from the World book, but I thought it was interesting, as it could be a source of animosity between the Targaryens and the Tullys, who had previously been staunch loyalists, and the reason Hoster moved his house away from the throne and into a more beneficial alliance with the North and the Vale.
I really like how you put all this together.
I would argue that supporting Rhaegar, while likely a better candidate for king, would not bring much additional benefit to the lords of the Southron Ambitions Alliance.
Thank you for your rationale. I have a tendency to romanticize things so I had always attributed any possible alliance with the North and Rhaeger to be simply caused by Aerys being an asshat. Yours makes SO much more sense and is certainly more in line with GRRM.
So how can Rhaegar advance his agenda, without raising suspicion now that Aerys's supporters are watching him like a hawk?
Enter: Ashara Dayne.
Genius!
Essentially, he's saying that had Brandon gotten Winterfell and Catelyn instead of him, he would've been free to marry the woman he truly loved and was supposed to marry.
And now my heart is even more broken for Ned.
I'm 96.7% convinced that Ashara is alive, married to Howland and is the mother of Jojen and Meera. If your theory on the betrothal is correct, it could explain when Ned & Howland don't visit over the years. Talk about an awkward dinner!
This was why Brandon is the one that was most outraged by the crowning of Lyanna. Not Robert, the man she was betrothed to. Nor Elia, the wife that Rhaegar passed over. Or Oberyn, the hot-blooded brother of Rhaegar's wife. In these events, Brandon is the one expecting to be brother to a queen. He is the one conspiring on Rickard's behalf, behind the scenes with Jon Arryn to gain the influence in court, influence that would only be had with a King Robert, not with any Targaryen king, as history had shown.
Mind blown.
CONCLUSION: Whether Rhaegar's party or Aerys's party reached Lyanna first, I don't know. But I like to think that Petyr Baelish witnessed it all, and took a detour north up the road to find Brandon and deliver the information that the prince had abducted Lyanna.
I really, really like this. I prefer to think that Peter didn't know exactly what he saw, assumed, and once he realized what power he could wield with misinformation helped shape him into the man he is today.
Or that Ethan Glover was a rat, and confessed to what he knew of the Harrenhal Conspiracy in order to save his own skin? I know, I know... it's the uncomfortable truth that everyone fears deep down but tries to reason around because the Glovers are a Northern house and Stark bannermen are the most loyal ever and do no wrong, etc. etc. But the fact remains:
“Someone told.” Hotah shrugged. “Someone always tells.” -A Feast for Crows, Chapter XXI (The Queenmaker)
It reminds me of Arya having to watch the Tickler torture his prisoners, when she realized that none of them could withstand the questioning, and that even the strongest only held out until evenfall. If Ethan Glover was indeed spared because he confessed to the conspiracy, it then gives us a plausible reason for why Aerys called for Robert's head, when he seemingly had no reason to do so up to that point.
Pretty sure I'm gonna meet my quota in this post alone.
"Jenny's song" was written by Rhaegar during one of his trips to Summerhall with the help of the Ghost of High Heart, and in exchange he would receive the prophecies that he obsessed over. This is the soft, sad song he would play that made women cry.
This makes perfect sense. I've always thought she was a CotF (is there really anyone that doubts that?).
I'm still in awe over the whole thing. Truly, bravo!
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
I really, really like this. I prefer to think that Peter didn't know exactly what he saw, assumed, and once he realized what power he could wield with misinformation helped shape him into the man he is today.
... to a degree. I think he knew he was getting Brandon into shit and that was as far as he thought. I don't think he knew he would start a war or everything that would come after, he's not psychic. I have a thought in my mind that he'll reveal this to Sansa at some point. How would that go you ask? Something like this:
Truth is a funny thing sweetling, it takes on a life of it's own over the years. The realm believes it true that Rhaegar abducted your Aunt Lyanna... at least that's what I told your Uncle Brandon anyway.
Obviously with some GRRM embellishments, probably a description of some food or Sansa's dress but you get the general idea
I'm really enjoying finally working my way through this theory, but I gotta say, this:
And wouldn't telling Rhaegar, effectively betraying her family for a man she might be enamored with, be a total Sansa move? It's exactly like Sansa betraying her family by choosing to go to Cersei in A Game of Thrones because she's wants to be with Joffrey, and though we don't have a direct comparison of Sansa to Lyanna like we do with Arya, it only makes sense that a teenage girl going south for the first time might become smitten with a prince that by all accounts, was easy to fall for. Could Sansa have unknowingly given us a little insight into Lyanna too?
don't fly.
Arya is the anti-Sansa. We have no reason to believe nor assume that Lyanna would have been Sansa-like. Rather than swoon for married men, it seems far more likely that Lyanna would have spurned such slights to the north with sword in hand.
Just sayin...
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Totally agree. Sansa reacted like her mother would have, she is so Catelyn's daughter. I'm starting to wonder just what Cat's involvement in this affair may have been? Did she tell Brandon about Lyanna & Rhaegar?