out of all the x+y=J, i find myself drawn to this one due to the thematic parallels. The timeline counter argument fails (and that seems to be the default counterargument to any x+y threads), and this would explain Ned's 'fondness in recollection' regarding Rhaegar.
It doesn't explain his admiration for SAD tho... if this were true, and Ned knew, how would he still view SAD as the best Knight evar? he broke his vows, kidnapped his sister (unless she ran off, but i can't see that being the case), wasn't guarding the King during his time of need, and was basically loitering down south while all hell broke loose in the North... I know he blames Lyanna and Brandon for their demise, (wolf's blood) but you'd think that in an elopement scenario blame is a two way street (particularly with Lyanna betrothed to king Bob, Ned isn't going to think highly of whomever his sister ran off with).
I think if this incongruence can be logically sussed out, you've got a winner here.
It can definitely be sussed out, but I have to run to the bank...
superunknown5's been away from the interwebs, but he'll be back. His reasoning far predates my own. Have you read the OP?
Yup, read the whole thread before posting, and didn't find this (i don't recall agreeing with anything presented to the contrary anyway). might have missed something, so i'll reread to make sure i didn't...
ETA: there was some circumstantial stuff, but nothing that made me think Ned wouldn't think of Dayne with some heat in this scenario...
Last Edit: May 17, 2016 0:25:51 GMT by tzalaran: edited after rereading thread
It can definitely be sussed out, but I have to run to the bank...
superunknown5's been away from the interwebs, but he'll be back. His reasoning far predates my own. Have you read the OP?
Yup, read the whole thread before posting, and didn't find this (i don't recall agreeing with anything presented to the contrary anyway). might have missed something, so i'll reread to make sure i didn't...
I just reread it the other day, but can't recall if he covered that or not. Lol
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Crap i was trying to upload one of those Japanese with the big excited sparkly eyes.
Rhaegar!!!!!! Weeeeee
(actual picture of Rhaegar Targaryen)
Come now, be fair, be fair. Rhaegar had the stars serve him, not the other way around.
Actual picture of Rhaegar abducting Lyanna Stark, who we all know was actually put under a curse to look extremely old. She returned to Winterfell and looked so much like Old Nan, that Lyanna took over the role of the real Old Nan when she died just before Catelyn arrived. That's why Old Nan has lived to be over 100, because Lyanna replaced Old Nan and still remains under the curse.
The reason why Jon never learned the truth was because he never could quite accept the fact that the curse and therefore magic, was actually real. He's been in denial of it for a long long time.
Who cast the curse? Why Maggy the Frog did, just before giving up the ghost.
It's Ashara Dayne who's actually buried in Lyanna's crypt, to carry out the ruse, which is why House Dayne likes Ned so much, because he was "so in love" with Ashara that he said he'd bury her himself. That's why he's forbidden her name being mentioned in Winterfell, so that no one goes digging around in Lyanna's tomb and discovers that it's actually Ashara and not Lyanna in there.
Come now, be fair, be fair. Rhaegar had the stars serve him, not the other way around.
Actual picture of Rhaegar abducting Lyanna Stark, who we all know was actually put under a curse to look extremely old. She returned to Winterfell and looked so much like Old Nan, that Lyanna took over the role of the real Old Nan when she died just before Catelyn arrived. That's why Old Nan has lived to be over 100, because Lyanna replaced Old Nan and still remains under the curse.
The reason why Jon never learned the truth was because he never could quite accept the fact that the curse and therefore magic, was actually real. He's been in denial of it for a long long time.
Who cast the curse? Why Maggy the Frog did, just before giving up the ghost.
It's Ashara Dayne who's actually buried in Lyanna's crypt, to carry out the ruse, which is why House Dayne likes Ned so much, because he was "so in love" with Ashara that he said he'd bury her himself. That's why he's forbidden her name being mentioned in Winterfell, so that no one goes digging around in Lyanna's tomb and discovers that it's actually Ashara and not Lyanna in there.
LOL......
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
First, I just want to point out an overall impression I got from your comments. Most if not all of the issues you raise could apply to Rhaegar as well. Some would seem to apply to him even more than they apply to Arthur.
I'll address that in some further detail in a bit, but this first argument puzzles me:
The timeline counter argument fails (and that seems to be the default counterargument to any x+y threads)
I have no idea what this is. LOL
And you'd think I would, right? I mean, I'm often touting Stark+Dayne=Jon, so I've probably heard said counterargument, but I have no idea what you're talking about.
What is the timeline issue that emerges from x+y threads?
It doesn't explain his admiration for SAD tho... if this were true, and Ned knew, how would he still view SAD as the best Knight evar?
Let us review the quote, because "best" is not the word Ned uses... even though Bran asked "Was there one who was best of all?" Ned offers Jon's brother a different adjective.
A Clash of Kings - Bran III
"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.
He went to sleep with his head full of knights in gleaming armor, fighting with swords that shone like starfire, but when the dream came he was in the godswood again. The smells from the kitchen and the Great Hall were so strong that it was almost as if he had never left the feast. He prowled beneath the trees, his brother close behind him. This night was wildly alive, full of the howling of the man-pack at their play. The sounds made him restless. He wanted to run, to hunt, he wanted to—
However interesting I might find it that Bran dreams of knights in gleaming armor and starfire swords while in the godswood, and what that might mean for his brother Jon with the godswolf, it would only detract from the matter at hand.
Ned names Arthur Dayne the finest knight he ever saw, and goes on to describe the prowess with which he fought, the blade, and the fact that Ned would have died, if not for Howland Reed.
Ned becomes sad when remembering that Howland Reed saved his life from Arthur Dayne. Isn't that strange? I mean, thanks to Howland, Ned is alive and Bran was born. Hightower and Whent are not even mentioned. Ned reacts very strongly to the memory and mention of House Dayne, yet the mention of House Targaryen can barely rouse Ned to pay attention.
Is there an alternative? If we favor R+L=J, a strange discrepancy emerges. Why would Ned feel sad about fighting a man who tried to kill him? And not just any man, a knight of the very crown Ned and Robert had usurped. While Rhaegar might've loved or raped Lyanna, Arthur Dayne is just some man in the way of Ned's quest. A foe.
So with RLJ in mind, Ned would be lamenting the death of a foe that tried to kill him. It would be like Bran lamenting the way Summer killed the catspaw assassin. Though it was in combat, so it would be more like Tyrion feeling sad about Ser Vardis Egan - they called him the captain of the household guard, and he would have killed Tyrion but for Bronn.
Tyrion is given no cause to belittle Vardis Egan, or name him a poor knight. But neither is he given cause to mourn for him or tell his nephew about how fine he was.
Tyrion and Ned are about as different as two characters can be, of course. And this in no way constitutes a direct answer to your question. LOL
But it does strike me as very interesting that Ned would reflect upon Arthur Dayne at all and recount how fine he was for his son. He finds himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen every few years or so, but he does not seem to have any emotion all regarding Rhaegar.
Robert does though. Just as Ned is filled with emotion when remembering Arthur Dayne, Robert Baratheon is filled with emotion when remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. And that might be the dead giveaway...
While far different their emotional reactions bear an interesting connection. We know that Robert blames Rhaegar for Lyanna's death, rather than her wolf blood. Ned blames Lyanna for Lyanna's death, rather than Rhaegar. Robert feels angry at Rhaegar. Ned feels sad about Arthur.
That itself says rather lot I think, but let us move on...
Indeed he did. But this exception would apply to no candidate for Jon's father as much as it would apply to Rhaegar.
Rhaegar would be breaking his vows of marriage. Rhaegar would be betraying his own cousin (Robert). And Rhaegar would be breaking a pact that is sanctified in Westeros: betrothal. Not only would Rhaegar not be "keeping to one bed," he would be dishonoring House Baratheon, Lyanna Stark, and House Stark itself. Ned does not look kindly upon men who dishonor the north:
A Game of Thrones - Eddard II
"Would that I might forget him," Ned said bluntly. The Mormonts of Bear Island were an old house, proud and honorable, but their lands were cold and distant and poor. Ser Jorah had tried to swell the family coffers by selling some poachers to a Tyroshi slaver. As the Mormonts were bannermen to the Starks, his crime had dishonored the north. Ned had made the long journey west to Bear Island, only to find when he arrived that Jorah had taken ship beyond the reach of Ice and the king's justice. Five years had passed since then.
"Ser Jorah is now in Pentos, anxious to earn a royal pardon that would allow him to return from exile," Robert explained. "Lord Varys makes good use of him."
"So the slaver has become a spy," Ned said with distaste. He handed the letter back. "I would rather he become a corpse."
Ned finds it surprising that Robert would bear such bloodlust for Rhaegar after fifteen years, even though he himself wants to cut Jorah Mormont's head off five years after Jorah gave some poachers to a slaver instead of giving them to the Night's Watch (slavery). Again, we find different, yet analogous emotional reactions from Robert and Ned. Ned wants to cut off Jorah Mormont's head, Robert feels ambivalent about exiled knight. Clearly, they are seeing certain men very differently. But, I digress...
Ned does not seem to mind the notion of men breaking their vows of celibacy. His own friend is rather promiscuous, even though he is married. And when he discovers twincest, he doesn't bat an eye. Rather than hate Jaime Lannister even more, he attempts to save his children.
Think about that. Ned attempted to save the children of a knight of the kingsguard... even though they were bastard children born of an incestuous union. Jaime was breaking his vows of service, Cersei was breaking her vows of marriage. Interesting.
In fact, Ned's only problem with Jaime's children is that they are not Robert's rightful heirs.
So, let us return to the vow-breaking. We've had three Kingsguard POV characters. Jaime, Barristan, and Arys Oakheart. All three of them were quite willing and ready to forsake their vows to sleep with the women they desired. Barristan didn't get the chance, of course, but I don't think he would have kicked Ashara Dayne out of his bed, nor do I think Ned would think less of him for allowing her to share it. Mere conjecture of course.
But what is most telling, in my opinion, is that Ned would harbor a grudge against Jorah for "dishonoring" the North, and not Rhaegar. If Rhaegar really did sleep with his sister, and left her to die before her time, then surely his actions dishonored the North far more than Jorah Mormont's. I mean, the rumor of Rhaegar abducting/raping Lyanna seem to have been propagandized during the war. No one is more famous for dishonoring the North than Rhaegar Targaryen.
What's more, is that Rhaegar would also have been dishonoring the Stormlands, Ned's own foster-brother.
Yet, Ned feels nothing for Rhaegar. Except, he seems to believe he'd have been a better king that Robert. Strange no? I mean one way or another, if R+L=J, then Rhaegar dishonored the North, and dishonored House Stark quite directly.
But Arthur is the focus of this OP, so let us instead apply this scrutiny to him. Can we find evidence that Arthur Dayne dishonored the North?
Well, Ned did personally ensure that Arthur became a corpse. That would fit...
And, House Dayne's current Lord is named after Ned. That would fit...
And, for all of his prices paid and promises kept and broken, Eddard Stark has one -- and only one -- "bitter memory". That memory? Well, it's of burying Arthur Dayne.
A Game of Thrones - Eddard X
It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.
kidnapped his sister (unless she ran off, but i can't see that being the case)
You can't see Lyanna running off? How many times have you seen Arya run off?
Lyanna disappeared when she was fourteen. Arya is now eleven years old.
If anyone kidnapped Lyanna, Ned would certainly bear that person a grudge, no? Because after all, it led to her death. And Ned has no love for those who would harm children.
Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.
Yet, we find no such grudge. We only find a sadness that is devoid of rage. That is what you feel for runaways.
"And how long will this one remain an innocent?" Robert's mouth grew hard. "This child will soon enough spread her legs and start breeding more dragonspawn to plague me." "Nonetheless," Ned said, "the murder of children … it would be vile … unspeakable …"
Admittedly though, those examples are all rather young. How about a fourteen-year-old child-woman of surpassing loveliness?
"Whereas Daenerys is a fourteen-year-old girl." Ned knew he was pushing this well past the point of wisdom, yet he could not keep silent. "Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?"
One last note about the likelihood of Lyanna running away... What quality of Arya's is it that reminds Ned of Lyanna?
"Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave."
Her "wildness." What is wildness if not the urge to run away? Domesticated animals stay. Wildlife does not.
and was basically loitering down south while all hell broke loose in the North...
Indeed. And Ned speaks these very sentiments. They were not guarding the king...and were loitering down south...
"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were." "Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."
Clearly Ned does not hate these men the way he hates Jaime Lannister, yet, they are supposedly the knights who failed Aerys. It seems strange that Ned would call one of them the finest knight he'd ever seen, if he believed him to be an oathbreaker. And why should he feel sad when remembering the death of a knight that broke his vows?
Even if Jon were Rhaegar's son, Ned has no cause to mourn Arthur Dayne.
I know he blames Lyanna and Brandon for their demise, (wolf's blood)
Yup. And this cannot be overstated. Brandon was not kidnapped, yet Ned equates their causes of death.
If GRRM turned the tables, and placed Lyanna in Brandon's place (riding to KL, calling for Rhaegar to come out and die after her brother's disappearance), would we make the same assumption if Brandon disappeared?
Would we still make the assumption after learning what *Lyanna* was like from *Lord* Ryswell-Dustin? Let's check out this passage with wolf-blood Lyanna in wolf-blood Brandon's boots, if you have time for a strange exercise. LOL. Interestingly, a character emerges with a wildness not unlike Ygritte or Arya, or really, Ygritte combined with Arya...
A Dance with Dragons - The Turncloak*tress
It was true. "Someone has been down here stealing swords. Brandon'sLyanna's is gone as well."
"HeShe would hate that." SheHe pulled off herhis glove and touched hisher knee, pale flesh against dark stone. "BrandonLyanna loved hisher sword. HeShe loved to hone it. 'I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a woman's cuntman's crotch,' heshe used to say. And how heshe loved to use it. 'A bloody sword is a beautiful thing,' heshe told me once."
"You knew himher," TheonTheonette (LOL!) said.
The lantern light in herhis eyes made them seem as if they were afire. "BrandonLyanna was fostered at Barrowton with old LordLady Dustin, the fathermother of the one I'd later wed, but heshe spent most of his time riding the Rills. HeShe loved to ride. His little sisterHerbrother took after himher in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. And my lord father was always pleased to play host to the heirheiress to Winterfell. My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenheadvirginity to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. BrandonLyanna was never shy about taking what heshe wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widowwidower, but I still remember the look of myher maiden's blood on hismy cock the night heshe claimed me. I think BrandonLyanna liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain.
"The day I learned that BrandonLyanna was to marry Catelyn TullyRobert Baratheon, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. HeShe never wanted herhim, I promise you that. HeShe told me so, on our last night together … but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heirheiress marry the daughterson of one of his own vassals. Afterward my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon's brotherLyanna's sisterEddardSansarya (LOL), but Catelyn TullyRobert Baratheon got that one as well. I was left with young LordLady Dustin, until Ned Stark took himher from me."
A bit odd, I know. But we see a character that is not likely to be easily cowed into submission. We might compare Sansa to Lyanna, but her family doesn't. Which is odd right? I mean, she was abducted by Prince-King Joffrey...
but you'd think that in an elopement scenario blame is a two way street (particularly with Lyanna betrothed to king Bob, Ned isn't going to think highly of whomever his sister ran off with).
Completely agree. Hence why I do not think it was any kind of elopement scenario. I see it more like Brandon and Lady Dustin. A centaur with wolf blood, throwing caution to the wind.
ETA: there was some circumstantial stuff, but nothing that made me think Ned wouldn't think of Dayne with some heat in this scenario...
There is some heat. In fact, the first time we ever hear the name "Arthur Dayne" in the series, it also just so happens to be the first time we hear of Baby Jon's mysterious arrival to Winterfell, and, it is also one of the few moments Ned shows some passion...
A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II
He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.
That cut deep.Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.
That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.
Now, unless Ashara is Jon's mother, why did Ned speak with so much heat so as to frighten his lady wife? Now, I like the idea of Ashara as Jon's mother, but Lyanna fits too well. Ghost was born from a dead she-wolf, and Jon is Ghost.
The timeline counter argument fails (and that seems to be the default counterargument to any x+y threads)
I have no idea what this is. LOL
This is the standard counter to Bobert + Lyanna (and most other x+y=J != R+L), where the pregnancy period wouldn't be right based on Jon being born right around the sack of KL (also used for Ned + Ashara where Harrenhall is too far in the past and he wouldn't have seen her again until returning Dawn to Starfall). Because Arthur and Rhaegar were together post Harrenhall, and we're led to believe they were with Lyanna, they would both have had opportunity to be the father of any potential kid. my apologies, i thought this would have been more familiar or i'd have explained more fully...
i've read through the rest of your post, but don't have time right now to counterargue. (training this week, so don't have the time i normally would use). i'll come back to this later in the week...
This is the standard counter to Bobert + Lyanna (and most other x+y=J != R+L), where the pregnancy period wouldn't be right based on Jon being born right around the sack of KL (also used for Ned + Ashara where Harrenhall is too far in the past and he wouldn't have seen her again until returning Dawn to Starfall). Because Arthur and Rhaegar were together post Harrenhall, and we're led to believe they were with Lyanna, they would both have had opportunity to be the father of any potential kid.
Oh okay! Yeah that rings a bell now. We don't know how long Ned kicked it at Starfall, nor how many visits he made there before/after the sack, so I think that window remains open (likely with a lemon tree outside of it *wink wink*). Well, maybe "open" is too strong a word. It might be cracked a bit. LOL
The timeline argument might not make them as plausible as other theories, but it does not seem to wholly discredit Ned+Ashara and Ned+Wylla theory timelines, as Ned could have sired a bastard while mourning for Rickard and Brandon (we saw Robb take solace in a forbidden love during a similar emotional state).
But alas, for this particular discussion, I think the timeline works quite well for Arthur+Lyanna. While it is easy to muse upon any scenario, few give us more answers than questions. I think this is one stands strongest among those few, and might be the only one that never once conflicts with what we learn of Lyanna's character and Rhaegar's character. It also fits quite well with the Kingsguard POVs we are given, as well as Jon's own struggle with keeping his vows.
i've read through the rest of your post, but don't have time right now to counterargue. (training this week, so don't have the time i normally would use). i'll come back to this later in the week...
No worries. That's the great part about forums. They continue at our leisure. I was listening to kingmonkey's R+L=J featured essay this morning during my workout (gotta love text-to-speech apps).
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
And a big reason why i'm not buying the romance.You remember when Tywin was beating Tyrion over the head with him needing to get Sansa preggers.Remember Tyrion's reply.
"Tell me father,when do you think Sansa will be ready to sleep with me before or after i tell her we killed her family."
Tyrion ofcourse didn't have anything to do with it,but Sansa would not see the difference.It would still be the Lannisters killed my family.
Yup--even if my "Tywin tried to take Lyanna" theory holds and Rhaegar was the savior, I doubt very much Lyanna would fall for him once she heard about her family.
And if my "Rhaegar held onto her for political advantage" part of the theory holds, she'd either have to not hear anything (possible) or get over not being taken home. Which both Sansa and Arya complain about.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Yup, read the whole thread before posting, and didn't find this (i don't recall agreeing with anything presented to the contrary anyway). might have missed something, so i'll reread to make sure i didn't...
ETA: there was some circumstantial stuff, but nothing that made me think Ned wouldn't think of Dayne with some heat in this scenario...
voice has given a far more thorough answer above, but here's my two cents: Ned admires those who protect the weak. Ned, Sansa, and Bran all admire that part of the knightly ideal. It's what's missing in the current Kingsguard, especially from Ned and Sansa's perspective.
And Ned despises those who prey on the weak. His reaction to Robert's "kill Dany" plot prove that.
Ned goes out of his way to protect Dany. Even breaks his oath to serve Robert and resigns the Hand ship. Disdains Robert openly. Calls him a coward and a man without honor in front of the council. All to protect a girl he has no clear responsibility for.
If Arthur protected Lyanna, even at the expense of his oaths, I could see Ned forgiving a lot.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
his is the standard counter to Bobert + Lyanna (and most other x+y=J != R+L), where the pregnancy period wouldn't be right based on Jon being born right around the sack of KL (also used for Ned + Ashara where Harrenhall is too far in the past and he wouldn't have seen her again until returning Dawn to Starfall). Because Arthur and Rhaegar were together post Harrenhall, and we're led to believe they were with Lyanna, they would both have had opportunity to be the father of any potential kid. my apologies, i thought this would have been more familiar or i'd have explained more fully...
i've read through the rest of your post, but don't have time right now to counterargue. (training this week, so don't have the time i normally would use). i'll come back to this later in the week...
Yeah,the timeline aspect is something i don't agree with.On the grounds that the elements used to determine this are the result of faulty reasoning i.e. What Cat believes about when Jon was born, what Dany believes about her origins (apparently,Westeros has a One touch pregancy system we don't know about)in relation to GRRM's statement.The general ambiguity surrounding Lya's whereabouts.This is her being at the toj with Rhaegar and the KGS shacked up for a year knocking boots with somebody.I mean i have a problem with this on a human level.Even if Lyanna doesn't hear about Brandon and Rickard for a while she based on Brandon's reaction to the crowning she had to have known he above all would lose his shit and do something stupid.
Yup--even if my "Tywin tried to take Lyanna" theory holds and Rhaegar was the savior, I doubt very much Lyanna would fall for him once she heard about her family.
And if my "Rhaegar held onto her for political advantage" part of the theory holds, she'd either have to not hear anything (possible) or get over not being taken home. Which both Sansa and Arya complain about.
Exactly,the whole environment and atmosphere doesn't warrant a girl's punani dripping with anticipation.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Yeah,the timeline aspect is something i don't agree with.On the grounds that the elements used to determine this are the result of faulty reasoning i.e. What Cat believes about when Jon was born, what Dany believes about her origins (apparently,Westeros has a One touch pregancy system we don't know about)in relation to GRRM's statement.The general ambiguity surrounding Lya's whereabouts.This is her being at the toj with Rhaegar and the KGS shacked up for a year knocking boots with somebody.
I'm not a fan of disregarding timelines, I believe there's a method to the madness. But, there are certainly some discrepancies that warrant attention. Either GRRM was wrong, or Dany was... I think... I don't think they can both be right, but I would defer to people who actually can remember the timeline. ...paging regular jon umber , Wraith , @prettypig , markg171 , whitewolfstark , everyone who isn't voice.... LOL
I can handle the pre-history chronology pretty well, but I don't know how people keep all the Sack/Battle of the Bells/etc stuff straight in their heads. I take my hat off to them. I'm probably overdue for a glance at our timeline thread.
I mean i have a problem with this on a human level.Even if Lyanna doesn't hear about Brandon and Rickard for a while she based on Brandon's reaction to the crowning she had to have known he above all would lose his shit and do something stupid.
Possible, but like Arya, I don't think Lyanna was troubled by little trifles like *consequences*.
Exactly,the whole environment and atmosphere doesn't warrant a girl's punani dripping with anticipation.
LOL! There is no higher honor than warranting such anticipation.
While I have often made the same argument (though, less directly LOL), there is a strong counterargument. And, it happens to be one that fits quite nicely with the idea of Arthur+Lyanna. The counterargument is sex to cope with grief.
We've seen a diverse range of characters turn to sex to cope with the grief of murdered family members. When doing so, the sex has universally involved the breaking of vows, iirc. The sex has also universally not been with members of the murderer's family.