-A man would need to be a fool to rape a silent sister," Ser Creighton was saying. "Even to lay hands upon one . . . it's said they are the Stranger's wives, and their female parts are cold and wet as ice." He glanced at Brienne. "Uh . . . beg pardon." Brienne I-aFfC
A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.
the Stranger's wife?
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Oh, I'm still there. I'll clean up the OP and post it here.
RLJ is all well and good, but Jon being a Jesus figure - the son of either the Night's King or the Great Other - makes more sense to me. Lyanna has all her Mary imagery, after all. Jon has his resurrection. Neat as a pin.
I just wanted to point out that if the Night's King is yore's Brandon the Builder, all Starks are the sons and daughters of the man who gave his seed to a cold woman with eyes like blue stars.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I just wanted to point out that if the Night's King is yore's Brandon the Builder, all Starks are the sons and daughters of the man who gave his seed to a cold woman with eyes like blue stars.
ah! but do they descend from him or from his brother 'who brought him down'?
and i realise that we are departing from topic (but grrm is not reading so he won't mind) but here are 2 more thoughts for you:
Robert's mumblings:
If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection
so that Stark 'brother' could have been a brother-in-law..
The Wall can look like a living blue thing: Jon:
He turned his back on it and lifted his eyes to the Wall, blazing blue and crystalline in the sunlight
Sometimes it seemed to Jon almost a living thing, with moods of its own. The color of the ice was wont to change with every shift of the light. Now it was the deep blue of frozen rivers,
and it certainly is cold as ice.
Did the NK 'wed' the Wall?
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
and i realise that we are departing from topic (but grrm is not reading so he won't mind)
He's not, but this topic is just way too juicy. I couldn't resist making it into its own thread. Such an interesting matter to consider. Connections between the Stranger and the Others abound (as well as connections to the Great Other and the Night's King, if they exist).
I won't spoil anything if you haven't. It's really good. In it, GRRM introduces you to the Seven in a far more personal way, and this characterization meshes very well with your idea of The Stranger's Wife.
If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection
so that Stark 'brother' could have been a brother-in-law..
Oh indeed. And I must point out as I have many times before that the Night's King is the only man in the story that Old Nan names as a "Stark of Winterfell." The "brother" that cast him down is not named as a Stark. (The world book does name him Bran the Breaker, but it is not canon.)
This opens the door to in-laws, bastard-brothers, and my own personal favorite, Sworn Brothers:
Benjen Stark frowned. "A boy you are, and a boy you'll remain until Ser Alliser says you are fit to be a man of the Night's Watch. If you thought your Stark blood would win you easy favors, you were wrong. We put aside our old families when we swear our vows. Your father will always have a place in my heart, but these are my brothers now." He gestured with his dagger at the men around them, all the hard cold men in black.
Jon III, AGOT
"No one sent me, m'lord, saving old Mormont. I'm here to find men for the Wall, and when Robert next holds court, I'll bend the knee and cry our need, see if the king and his Hand have some scum in the dungeons they'd be well rid of. You might say as Benjen Stark is why we're talking, though. His blood ran black. Made him my brother as much as yours. It's for his sake I'm come. Rode hard, I did, near killed my horse the way I drove her, but I left the others well behind."
Arya III, AGOT
The Night's King was the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, so I have to assume he swore a vow and had a great many "brothers." I believe the brother that cast him down was the first Sword of the Morning, but I won't go off on that pet theory.
He turned his back on it and lifted his eyes to the Wall, blazing blue and crystalline in the sunlight
Sometimes it seemed to Jon almost a living thing, with moods of its own. The color of the ice was wont to change with every shift of the light. Now it was the deep blue of frozen rivers,
and it certainly is cold as ice.
Did the NK 'wed' the Wall?
A very interesting proposition!
The Wall doesn't have blue eyes, but it is certainly no stranger to them. And I can see the Night's King giving his seed and soul to the Wall itself... particularly after reading the 1000 Worlds series.
And, there is this:
A Game of Thrones - Jon I
He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn? "You don't know what you're asking, Jon. The Night's Watch is a sworn brotherhood. We have no families. None of us will ever father sons. Our wife is duty. Our mistress is honor." "A bastard can have honor too," Jon said. "I am ready to swear your oath."
After considering that he cannot wed for the purpose of fathering an heir, Jon decides to wed the Wall.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I won't spoil anything if you haven't. It's really good. In it, GRRM introduces you to the Seven in a far more personal way, and this characterization meshes very well with your idea of The Stranger's Wife.
I have not, but i might, only if it is a finished story.
Oh indeed. And I must point out as I have many times before that the Night's King is the only man in the story that Old Nan names as a "Stark of Winterfell." The "brother" that cast him down is not named as a Stark. (The world book does name him Bran the Breaker, but it is not canon.)
well, in a way, but whilst he was 'a' Stark of WF, there was also 'the' Stark of Winterfell:
For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden. .. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon.
So there were 2 Starks. And I grant you that the man who brought him down may not have been the man who freed the Watch from bondage, although i feel this is bit of a rabbit hole.
This opens the door to in-laws, bastard-brothers, and my own personal favorite, Sworn Brothers:
right; the door to in-laws is the one that interests me as it could open a link between Daynes and Starks. The Andal Starks who ruthlessly conquered the north and the Valyrian Daynes, who via the SotM, are somehow intimately linked with the Dawn that ended the LN.
And Ice which became Dawn (right?) ended up in Starfall.
For me, the legend of the NK is highly suss, as it stinks of something having been conconcted by the 'victors', ie the Starks.
I have a half baked theory in which BtB is the missing Dayne... .
After considering that he cannot wed for the purpose of fathering an heir, Jon decides to wed the Wall.
yes indeed. And if he was not in step with the Starks, they would cast him down too.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
well, in a way, but whilst he was 'a' Stark of WF, there was also 'the' Stark of Winterfell:
For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden. .. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon.
So there were 2 Starks. And I grant you that the man who brought him down may not have been the man who freed the Watch from bondage, although i feel this is bit of a rabbit hole.
So we have 2 Starks and a Dayne.
Yup. Not only a rabbit hole, that issue is a point on which I can be quite unreasonable and biased. LOL
I definitely like the 2 Starks and a Dayne angle though.
right; the door to in-laws is the one that interests me as it could open a link between Daynes and Starks. The Andal Starks who ruthlessly conquered the north and the Valyrian Daynes, who via the SotM, are somehow intimately linked with the Dawn that ended the LN.
I dig it. I still think the Starks are First Men, and that the Targs are more likely to be descended from Daynes than the other way around... but I dig it.
For me, the legend of the NK is highly suss, as it stinks of something having been conconcted by the 'victors', ie the Starks.
To the contrary, I think the Starks are more likely to be the ones suppressing the story of the Night's King, and erasing negative skeletons from their closet.
The Starks want tales told of Brandon the Builder and the Last Hero... they do not want people to remember the time he declared himself king and made offerings to the Others.
But Old Nan it too old, too awesome, and has no fucks to give about Stark pride.
yes indeed. And if he was not in step with the Starks, they would cast him down too.
Indeed:
A Game of Thrones - Jon IX
Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother's side and help avenge his father. He remembered Robb as he had last seen him, standing in the yard with snow melting in his auburn hair. Jon would have to come to him in secret, disguised. He tried to imagine the look on Robb's face when he revealed himself. His brother would shake his head and smile, and he'd say … he'd say … He could not see the smile. Hard as he tried, he could not see it. He found himself thinking of the deserter his father had beheaded the day they'd found the direwolves. "You said the words," Lord Eddard had told him. "You took a vow, before your brothers, before the old gods and the new." Desmond and Fat Tom had dragged the man to the stump. Bran's eyes had been wide as saucers, and Jon had to remind him to keep his pony in hand. He remembered the look on Father's face when Theon Greyjoy brought forth Ice, the spray of blood on the snow, the way Theon had kicked the head when it came rolling at his feet. He wondered what Lord Eddard might have done if the deserter had been his brother Benjen instead of that ragged stranger. Would it have been any different? It must, surely, surely … and Robb would welcome him, for a certainty. He had to, or else … It did not bear thinking about. Pain throbbed, deep in his fingers, as he clutched the reins. Jon put his heels into his horse and broke into a gallop, racing down the kingsroad, as if to outrun his doubts. Jon was not afraid of death, but he did not want to die like that, trussed and bound and beheaded like a common brigand. If he must perish, let it be with a sword in his hand, fighting his father's killers. He was no true Stark, had never been one … but he could die like one. Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three.
Jon would have been the brother of the man who would cast him down.
And I must point out that Jon basically dreams of dying Arthur Dayne's death. And if Arthur was Jon's father, this passage takes on a very profound meaning.
I dig it. I still think the Starks are First Men, and that the Targs are more likely to be descended from Daynes than the other way around... but I dig it.
I agree that they are First Men, but as i showed in my post on First Men, they, assuming that they did start their conquest from the south, are most likely of Andal stock. Not he same stock as wildlings and other northern tribes.
You'd have to read the post to understand where i am coming from and what questions results and how it may impact the ancient history.
Bran the Breaker or Bran the Builder? If the former, I agree. If the latter, I'm hesitant.
Bran the Builder (aka Eldric). the Last Hero. the wielder of Ice. the friend of the children. the builder of the Wall. And the Wall was built to protect the last of the children's realm AND the first men of the north from the relentless Stark conquest.
The same Starks then took control of this Wall. It took them 13 years. The battle took place at the Nightfort (the 12th castle from the east). And ever since they have had a presence there.
Which would explain why the Starks created the monstrous legend of the NK.
How did Ice ended up back in Starfall? don't know...Perhaps a 'the Stark in WF' did the same as Ned. After killing his foe, he returned the sacred blade.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."