Post by regular jon umber on Aug 4, 2015 7:23:20 GMT
The idea of them having been married and Jon being legitimized thusly is truly mind boggling. I don't care how many Targaryen kings practiced polygamy (and it was only 2, I think?), a marriage is only a marriage if it is legitimate in the eyes of the people, and that's usually through their emissaries in the church.
And even if they *did* get married, who would care? Will people suddenly think "Oh he's the rightful king, let's all bow down to him"? You need only look at Viserys, Rhaegar, and Stannis to know that legitimacy is a paper shield.
On another point: Ned never stops to correct Bob when he's talking about Rapist Rhaegar, yet Ned clearly doesn't hold any ill feelings towards Rhaegar, so he doesn't think of him as a rapist. He clearly knows better.
I can be knighted for unreasonably long sentences? Wish I'd know that sooner. "Dame Sly Wren" has a ring to it
I tend to knight lords and ladies alike. It's a bad habit. If someone's gender is not explicitly stated, I tend to guess wrong.
I mistook BearQueen for an eccentric gay man. That was pretty funny. I mistook Addicted to Snow for a woman with a Kit Harrington crush. And I even messed up Matthew's gender in Heresy. Funny story... He was having a few drinks one thread and referred to himself in the third person as a grandmother. Something to the effect of, "Well in this humble grandmother's opinion..." At which point I assumed Matthew was a grandmother using her grandson's computer and westeros account. I finally had to PM him and ask if he was a lord or lady. Turned out, shockingly, I know, that the member named "Matthew" was in fact a dude.
He remembered the 'grandmother' comment though and we had a good laugh.
I agree on all of the questions re: why Lyanna and Rhaegar "disappeared" together. Books don't answer them. At all. But still think Ned's thinking about the general mess Robert makes. Doesn't mention Rahegar until the very, very end. Surprised he thinks of him. And one comment. Really hard to extrapolate all of this from such a comment.
Ned isn't going so far as to say, "Well, Rhaegar was at least better than Stalin." But his opinion of Robert is so done in this moment that wondering if Rhaegar frequented (vs. once in a while? ) brothels, then saying he thought not is very small praise indeed. Not "frequenting" is a far cry from not going at all. Or from having lusts. Or mistresses. Or taking Lyanna. Or all of the rest of it.
I'm not trying to dodge the holes in RLJ. They are plenty and various. But can't see this scene as defining anything other than Ned's weariness and disgust at the present state of affairs. And Ned does not need to see Rhaegar as being as lustful as Robert to still allow for Rhaegar's having taken Lyanna (purpose to be determined).
I'm not extrapolating much, truth be told. I'm only adhering to canon. Ned contemplates his own guilts, lustful men, Jon Snow and the fathering of bastards, in succession. He then draws a clear line of contrast and distinction between Robert Baratheon's tendencies and behaviors, with the character of Rhaegar Targaryen. That's just the text.
In my opinion, others extrapolate far more. How can anyone come away from this passage thinking Lyanna would runaway with Rhaegar? Or that Rhaegar frequented more than one bed? The reverse interpretation requires far less extrapolation.
I agree the ambivalence is peculiar and does not seem to fit with kidnap, let alone rape. But can't see why he might not still be ambivalent re: running off together. Rhaegar was older, married, and the crown prince. Should have know better (I have my scolding face on--need to get Mojo to find an emoji)! So, even if Ned's let some of it go, compartmentalized, etc.--can still see him as not singing Rhaegar's praises. And he definitely doesn't sing in this passage.
I'm glad we agree the ambivalence rules out kidnapping and rape. That leaves us with the favored view of them running away together. I would argue that behavior does not seem likely from the girl who said "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." But I'm willing to concede that point for now, for the sake of argument.
Even in the runaway lovers scenario, Ned's ambivalence should still trouble you. Lyanna died. Lyanna died after running away with Rhaegar. As you say, Rhaegar, being an older, mature, and married man-grown, should have known better. Lyanna was what, fourteen?
I would not feel ambivalent towards any 22 year old man running away with any 14 year old girl. Let alone if that girl ended up pregnant and dead.
If that girl were my own sister, well, let's just say that would have been my own warhammer, not Robert's.
The ambivalence still doesn't make sense. And what's more, such acts do not seem in-character for Rhaegar either! Rather than making up reasons Ned might feel ambivalent, I think we are better served coming up with a new theory that explains the text.
It seems counterintuitive to me to force the text to conform to a theory.
I agree the passage says he didn't frequent brothels and strongly suggests that he didn't leave bastards around willy nilly to be left to the mercies of the families and his own wife. But Barristan very tactfully says Rhaegar "was fond of" Elia--not a warm endorsement of love. Respect, maybe, but not love. Might that mean Rhaegar wasn't interested per se? Sure--Baelor the Blessed jokes, etc. (those thought were when he was little). Might it mean he was looking elsewhere? Also possible. Just can't see how the text has pinned it down. And can't see why he'd have to be "lustful" to elope. . .unless we have different definitions of lustful.
I'm a fan of Barristan, but he is not a reliable narrator on this subject. I hate to pull the 'unreliable narrator' card, I really do, because it sounds like a cop out, but Barristan wasn't particularly close to Rhaegar. Sure, he knew him. But I find it unlikely Rhaegar would confide his feelings toward his wife to the man.
In Dany's vision, Rhaegar and Elia seemed pretty close. They looked like a family. I think Lyanna would have seen them as a family as well. I think she would have seen Rhaegar as a father, and as a husband bound to Elia - whether or not he loved her, or was only fond of her.
We have precious few quotes from Lyanna Stark, but those we receive in this chapter seem to rule out her fondness for men who sleep around quite strongly. I cannot reconcile that with her willingly sharing a bed with Rhaegar.
"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."
She gives us three extremely relevant, character-building sentences.
1. "Robert will never keep to one bed"
She was right, Ned knows of course. He has just left one of Robert's beds.
2. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale."
In the RLJ scenario, Lyanna would be that girl in the Vale. Well, tower, but you see my point. It doesn't make sense that Lyanna would balk even at betrothal to such a man, and then go develop a relationship with Rhaegar, who was married to Elia, and a father to two children.
3. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."
And what was Rhaegar's nature? Bed-hopper? Fatherer of bastards? Frequenter of Brothels? Somehow, Ned thought not.
I think Lyanna was a realist. Love might be sweet and all, but there are real-life consequences for decisions. Like I said, I just can't reconcile this with her running away with Rhaegar. GRRM wanted her to be a character for a reason. And he's given us very little material with which to form her character, so I think these are very important pieces of the Lyanna Stark mosaic.
I may be completely wrong of course, but I see no reason to shoe-horn these passages into any theory that does not accommodate them. As Tyrion said, "...you must shape the horse to the rider." I think RLJ no only has holes, but is attempting to reshape the text to conform to a scenario that is contradicted by this chapter. Not only should these passages not-be neglected by a theory, they should provide the foundation of a good one.
We do agree--just can't see how the passage suggests the conclusion is all. No biggie.
It was always a stretch, admittedly. But if we consider Lyanna Jon's mother, her bloody fate does not seem all that dissimilar to the women LF describes to Ned. If Ashara is Jon's mother, that also seems to fit well with the dangers of bastardy in Westeros. And, for Catelyn, the Cersei-like dangers were always there, Ned had to nip them in the bud. And did so. (I hope you will remember I said up front that the Cat-scenario I had in mind was convoluted... haha)
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I tend to knight lords and ladies alike. It's a bad habit. If someone's gender is not explicitly stated, I tend to guess wrong.
I mistook BearQueen for an eccentric gay man. That was pretty funny. I mistook Addicted to Snow for a woman with a Kit Harrington crush. And I even messed up Matthew's gender in Heresy. Funny story... He was having a few drinks one thread and referred to himself in the third person as a grandmother. Something to the effect of, "Well in this humble grandmother's opinion..." At which point I assumed Matthew was a grandmother using her grandson's computer and westeros account. I finally had to PM him and ask if he was a lord or lady. Turned out, shockingly, I know, that the member named "Matthew" was in fact a dude.
He remembered the 'grandmother' comment though and we had a good laugh.
HA! I thought you did know and were just playing. No worries.
I'm not extrapolating much, truth be told. I'm only adhering to canon. Ned contemplates his own guilts, lustful men, Jon Snow and the fathering of bastards, in succession. He then draws a clear line of contrast and distinction between Robert Baratheon's tendencies and behaviors, with the character of Rhaegar Targaryen. That's just the text.
In my opinion, others extrapolate far more. How can anyone come away from this passage thinking Lyanna would runaway with Rhaegar? Or that Rhaegar frequented more than one bed? The reverse interpretation requires far less extrapolation.
But Ned only says he thinks "not" that Rhaegar "frequented" brothels. Better than what he's been thinking of Robert, but REALLY brief. And small praise. And not eliminating mistresses, etc. Just Robert's "frequenting." I also assume he's thinking of Robert's carelessness of his bastards and their mothers. But can't see that precluding Rhaegar's having a bastard. . .
RE: your statements on Lyanna: Lyanna's statements ALWAYS give me pause re: RLJ. But gives me pause re: ALJ, too. And anyone+L=J. If it weren't for the bed of blood comment, I'd never have thought of Lyanna's having a baby at all. But if she had a child either with a man sworn to duty or a man sworn to a wife--both seem like men any girl in her right mind should steer clear of.
Though I may be prejudiced: my Dad encouraged a healthy distrust of Snow White's Prince Charming when I was little--"don't run off with people you don't know!" So, I might be prejudiced against both Rhaegar and Arthur equally via upbringing.
I'm a fan of Barristan, but he is not a reliable narrator on this subject. I hate to pull the 'unreliable narrator' card, I really do, because it sounds like a cop out, but Barristan wasn't particularly close to Rhaegar. Sure, he knew him. But I find it unlikely Rhaegar would confide his feelings toward his wife to the man.
In Dany's vision, Rhaegar and Elia seemed pretty close. They looked like a family. I think Lyanna would have seen them as a family as well. I think she would have seen Rhaegar as a father, and as a husband bound to Elia - whether or not he loved her, or was only fond of her.
Agree Barristan may not be that reliable. And I have made this argument multiple times re: his "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna" many times. But they all interacted. Would have seen Rhaegar and Elia occasionally at court. Might have noticed something. My point: it seems like Barristan is trying to be tactful on the "fond" comment. But he still says it. And he had some opportunity to observe. They could have been a very happy family--but it's in a dream/vision/hallucination. Also might have been "fond." So--probably not proof one way or the other.
I'm glad we agree the ambivalence rules out kidnapping and rape. That leaves us with the favored view of them running away together. I would argue that behavior does not seem likely from the girl who said "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." But I'm willing to concede that point for now, for the sake of argument.
Even in the runaway lovers scenario, Ned's ambivalence should still trouble you. Lyanna died. Lyanna died after running away with Rhaegar. As you say, Rhaegar, being an older, mature, and married man-grown, should have known better. Lyanna was what, fourteen?
I would not feel ambivalent towards any 22 year old man running away with any 14 year old girl. Let alone if that girl ended up pregnant and dead.
If that girl were my own sister, well, let's just say that would have been my own warhammer, not Robert's.
The ambivalence still doesn't make sense. And what's more, such acts do not seem in-character for Rhaegar either! Rather than making up reasons Ned might feel ambivalent, I think we are better served coming up with a new theory that explains the text.
It seems counterintuitive to me to force the text to conform to a theory.
Ha! I thought you were arguing Ned wouldn't be ambivalent re: running off together and was trying to tactfully make a case. So, yes, the ambivalence troubles me. And I can't see why Ned wouldn't be ambivalent re: Rhaegar if Lyanna ran off with Arthur. Where was Rhaegar the whole time? Why cover for Arthur and let things blow up? I can't find any hint anywhere that anyone other than Rhaegar took her--granted that's not iron clad given the size of the gaps. But it at least suggests that if Rhaegar didn't take her, he didn't get the truth out. Or at least attempt to stop the crazy. Maybe he thought it was too late. But were I Ned, knowing all who died--I'd still be less than thrilled with the crown prince.
And Arthur--Ned's liking Arthur makes some sense if Arthur was a loyal knight. Gets harder if Arthur=older man running off with sister. And lets war go BOOM! Can see Ned being plenty peeved with Mr. Sword of the Morning.
So, on the ambivalence--can see Ned's being ambivalent on many scores--regardless of specifics of R's and A's roles. So, his being very brief at the end of the original passage--still doesn't tell me much.
RE: the last point--all good.
Last Edit: Aug 5, 2015 3:19:40 GMT by SlyWren: Clarity
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
The idea of them having been married and Jon being legitimized thusly is truly mind boggling. I don't care how many Targaryen kings practiced polygamy (and it was only 2, I think?), a marriage is only a marriage if it is legitimate in the eyes of the people, and that's usually through their emissaries in the church.
And even if they *did* get married, who would care? Will people suddenly think "Oh he's the rightful king, let's all bow down to him"? You need only look at Viserys, Rhaegar, and Stannis to know that legitimacy is a paper shield.
On another point: Ned never stops to correct Bob when he's talking about Rapist Rhaegar, yet Ned clearly doesn't hold any ill feelings towards Rhaegar, so he doesn't think of him as a rapist. He clearly knows better.
So many holes....
Yes--from what I can get on the married: seems like it goes, "Ned doesn't think bad about Rhaegar. So must have liked Rhaegar. Would never like a man who just stole his sister. So he must have married Lyanna."
Or: "The KG stay at the tower of joy even though they know where Viserys is and might know that Aerys declared Viserys his heir. Which must mean they see Jon as rightful heir. Which means that they must know Rhaegar married Lyanna and Jon is legit."
Which seems like you have to assume a lot and then apply the assumption as proof. Maybe they did marry (doubt it). But given all of the northern imagery around Jon, and the fact that he just reenacted the Night's King--really seems like he's tied to the North. Can't see how a possible Targ kid showing up and saying, "Support me! I'm legit!" will work. Though we may get to see Young Griff try.
Agree that Ned doesn't correct Bob (what would be the point at this point?) and Rhaegar unlikely to be rapist--but what Ned thinks of Rhaegar? I'm still not sure on that at all. Too few thoughts.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
agree the passage says he didn't frequent brothels and strongly suggests that he didn't leave bastards around willy nilly to be left to the mercies of the families and his own wife. But Barristan very tactfully says Rhaegar "was fond of" Elia--not a warm endorsement of love. Respect, maybe, but not love. Might that mean Rhaegar wasn't interested per se?
Gut feeling: Rhaegar was most certainly not interested, and most certainly wasn't frequenting the types of brothels that Bob was visiting, but for very different reasons than most assume.
My assertation on Ned's side thought/that entire passage is and will continue to be that Ned is mulling over this particular shortcoming of KINGS. Would Rhaegar have engaged in this unseemly practice of frequenting brothels and fathering bastards, like Robert and Aerys and Aegon IV and who knows how many others? Somehow he thought not. I suspect that Ned's conclusion is partially based on his knowledge of Rhaegar's personality and partially based on his suspicion of....other stuff.
Or: "The KG stay at the tower of joy even though they know where Viserys is and might know that Aerys declared Viserys his heir. Which must mean they see Jon as rightful heir. Which means that they must know Rhaegar married Lyanna and Jon is legit."
It just doesn't add up; if they agreed that he was the rightful king, why stand out in the middle of the road, to defend him against who knows how many foes? Why not hide him properly, until you can get an army at his back?
Gut feeling: Rhaegar was most certainly not interested, and most certainly wasn't frequenting the types of brothels that Bob was visiting, but for very different reasons than most assume.
Gut feeling: Rhaegar was most certainly not interested, and most certainly wasn't frequenting the types of brothels that Bob was visiting, but for very different reasons than most assume.
I think there's a few of us floating around. No one seems to want to talk about it, though.
Oh yeah--Rhaegar might be gay has to be an option. Don't think we have enough info to pin it down--but given JonCon, and the Baelor quips, and the reactions to women (what we're given), and maybe even the androgynous early-80"s descriptions of his appearance (I keep picturing him as a silver-haired member of a boy band)--gay's got to be considered. And would be very interesting.
My assertation on Ned's side thought/that entire passage is and will continue to be that Ned is mulling over this particular shortcoming of KINGS. Would Rhaegar have engaged in this unseemly practice of frequenting brothels and fathering bastards, like Robert and Aerys and Aegon IV and who knows how many others? Somehow he thought not. I suspect that Ned's conclusion is partially based on his knowledge of Rhaegar's personality and partially based on his suspicion of....other stuff.
Yeah--I think that's where Ned's focus is. Could Ned know something about Rhaegar? Be drawing conclusions about Rhaegar based on Lyanna. etc? Sure. But I just have trouble seeing this scene as defining it. That's all.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
It just doesn't add up; if they agreed that he was the rightful king, why stand out in the middle of the road, to defend him against who knows how many foes? Why not hide him properly, until you can get an army at his back?
Yeah--I don't want to derail Voice's analysis. But I agree. The easiest way to read that scene I think is that no one's in the tower. Then nothing is hidden or has to be speculated on. And it even works fine with RLJ. At least as far as I can see. So, no idea why have to convolute the scene. Enough said.
Final result of all this debate: Ned does not have or at least, does not display, the normal human range of emotions...
So, basically I'm repeating myself and should give it a rest? Sounds good.
And agree on Ned--would be SO much more helpful if he were more verbose--in his head and out. But now, no head. Sad.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
But Ned only says he thinks "not" that Rhaegar "frequented" brothels. Better than what he's been thinking of Robert, but REALLY brief. And small praise. And not eliminating mistresses, etc. Just Robert's "frequenting." I also assume he's thinking of Robert's carelessness of his bastards and their mothers. But can't see that precluding Rhaegar's having a bastard. . .
It certainly doesn't preclude Rhaegar of ever having a bastard, but, I think you would agree that this, combined with Lyanna's feelings on men who keep multiple beds, would seem to suggest a scenario other than RLJ.
RE: your statements on Lyanna: Lyanna's statements ALWAYS give me pause re: RLJ. But gives me pause re: ALJ, too. And anyone+L=J. If it weren't for the bed of blood comment, I'd never have thought of Lyanna's having a baby at all. But if she had a child either with a man sworn to duty or a man sworn to a wife--both seem like men any girl in her right mind should steer clear of.
Well, Anyone+L=J isn't really prohibited by her feelings on the matter, as long as the man is keeping only to her bed.
Arthur is a whole other debate, and one I've argued on both sides of, but I do believe there are enough Dawn-Jon passages to make a good case for Jon being a Dayne, whether through Ashara or Arthur. Ned+Ashara is probably the most-supported scenario in this passage. Ned reflects on his own old guilts. Sees Jon's face so much like a younger version of his own. And, wonders why if the gods frown upon bastards, why they fill men with such lusts.
But, anyhoo... not trying to make a case for that either, in this thread at least
Rather, I think we need to come up with some completely new ideas, particularly regarding this passage, because RLJ ain't cutting it.
Though I may be prejudiced: my Dad encouraged a healthy distrust of Snow White's Prince Charming when I was little--"don't run off with people you don't know!" So, I might be prejudiced against both Rhaegar and Arthur equally via upbringing.
Sounds like a wise dad.
If we look at Lyanna as an alt-version of Arya, I can't help but think she wouldn't be attracted to, or run away with Snow White's Prince Charming either. Let alone a melancholy, gussied-up, married dragon-prince with a harp.
Agree Barristan may not be that reliable. And I have made this argument multiple times re: his "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna" many times. But they all interacted. Would have seen Rhaegar and Elia occasionally at court. Might have noticed something. My point: it seems like Barristan is trying to be tactful on the "fond" comment. But he still says it. And he had some opportunity to observe. They could have been a very happy family--but it's in a dream/vision/hallucination. Also might have been "fond." So--probably not proof one way or the other.
We agree. But I'd trust the dream/vision/hallucination more than Barristan on this one. Dany saw into their bedroom. Barry only saw them professionally.
Ha! I thought you were arguing Ned wouldn't be ambivalent re: running off together and was trying to tactfully make a case. So, yes, the ambivalence troubles me. And I can't see why Ned wouldn't be ambivalent re: Rhaegar if Lyanna ran off with Arthur. Where was Rhaegar the whole time? Why cover for Arthur and let things blow up? I can't find any hint anywhere that anyone other than Rhaegar took her--granted that's not iron clad given the size of the gaps. But it at least suggests that if Rhaegar didn't take her, he didn't get the truth out. Or at least attempt to stop the crazy. Maybe he thought it was too late. But were I Ned, knowing all who died--I'd still be less than thrilled with the crown prince.
Ha! Alas no the ambivalence makes no sense at all if Rhaegar is Jon's father, because that would mean that Lyanna is Jon's mother. And that would mean a 22 year old married man ran away with a 14 year old girl and either raped her or had "consensual" sex with her at an incredibly young age. It would mean, also, that Ned's father, brother, and sister all died because of this man. If Rhaegar had not done those things, Ned could be happily married to Ashara Dayne, instead of Brandon's betrothed.
So again, of the many possible fathers of Jon Snow, it seems to me Rhaegar has the least going for him in this chapter. The ambivalence rules him out, Lyanna's 'one bed' rules him out, and, in my opinion, Ned's own opinion of Rhaegar's character (contrasted with lustful-bastard-sires) rules him out.
Arthur presents far less problems. First and foremost among them, we know less about Arthur. All we really know about him is that he was a great swordsman and that Starks seem to hold him in a place of special honor. House Dayne seems to hold Ned similarly dear. There is more afoot I believe, and I have a feeling Jon is the missing piece. But, that's another discussion.
Arthur also was not married, and a father to two trueborn children. While he had his KG vows, we don't know Lyanna's opinion on vows of celibacy. All we know is her view on infidelity.
Ned is not the type of man to judge Rhaegar based on the actions of Arthur, so that might explain the ambivalence.
In my mind, the ambivalence is better explained by Rhaegar simply having nothing to do with Jon Snow's birth or Lyanna's death. A new approach is needed.
And Arthur--Ned's liking Arthur makes some sense if Arthur was a loyal knight. Gets harder if Arthur=older man running off with sister. And lets war go BOOM! Can see Ned being plenty peeved with Mr. Sword of the Morning.
Certainly. Which might be what Ned is feeling when he recalls the tower of joy as a "bitter memory." I would argue that we simply do not know. All we know is that Ned only ever spoke respectfully of Arthur Dayne.
That might mean a lot to Jon if he ends up being Arthur's son. Given that Bran is one of only two people in the series to ever say that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, Jon has likely heard that tale as well. I don't think Jon would feel uplifted by news that his mother died at 16 because a married man fathered a bastard on her.
Sorry. I didn't mean to repeatedly throw my own theories into this discussion. But it's hard not to. Rhaegar makes far less sense than the other candidates given this chapter. I think Ned and Arthur should be at the top of our list, and that Rhaegar should be at the bottom of the pack.
So, on the ambivalence--can see Ned's being ambivalent on many scores--regardless of specifics of R's and A's roles. So, his being very brief at the end of the original passage--still doesn't tell me much.
I can respect that. I was in a similar place when I began digging into this question. But RLJ makes a lot of sense only if we ignore contradictions. It took me a while to see that for years and years I was allowing my fondness for RLJ to alter my reading of the text. It is hard to ignore outside influences altogether of course, but I think if we examine this passage very, very critically, we can see at the very least this chapter does not suggest any of the following:
Lyanna would have willingly shared a married man's bed
Jon Snow is trueborn
Jon Snow was sired with noble intentions
Ned believed Rhaegar was likely to visit multiple beds