-gay's got to be considered. And would be very interesting.
And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. Why would the prince have thus given insult to his own wife, the Princess Elia Martell of Dorne (who was present), unless it was to help him gain the Iron Throne? The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia’s delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar’s cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king.
Rhaegar had never won a tourney before Harrenhal. He's therefore never had to crown anybody the queen of love and beauty. And that's exactly what that says: queen of love and beauty. You have to crown a woman. And who does he crown the first time he ever has to do this? Not his own wife who was delicately beautiful, but the boyish Stark girl. He picked a girl who looked like a guy.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
-gay's got to be considered. And would be very interesting.
And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. Why would the prince have thus given insult to his own wife, the Princess Elia Martell of Dorne (who was present), unless it was to help him gain the Iron Throne? The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia’s delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar’s cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king.
Rhaegar had never won a tourney before Harrenhal. He's therefore never had to crown anybody the queen of love and beauty. And that's exactly what that says: queen of love and beauty. You have to crown a woman. And who does he crown the first time he ever has to do this? Not his own wife who was delicately beautiful, but the boyish Stark girl. He picked a girl who looked like a guy.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Just kidding of course. I think there's enough evidence to suggest Lyanna was far better looking than Sean Bean. Robert, Ned, and Kevan come to mind as folks who suggest she was indeed beautiful.
(But, in my book, that has nothing to do with Rhaegar, let alone his sexuality.)
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Ha! Alas no the ambivalence makes no sense at all if Rhaegar is Jon's father, because that would mean that Lyanna is Jon's mother. And that would mean a 22 year old married man ran away with a 14 year old girl and either raped her or had "consensual" sex with her at an incredibly young age. It would mean, also, that Ned's father, brother, and sister all died because of this man. If Rhaegar had not done those things, Ned could be happily married to Ashara Dayne, instead of Brandon's betrothed.
So again, of the many possible fathers of Jon Snow, it seems to me Rhaegar has the least going for him in this chapter. The ambivalence rules him out, Lyanna's 'one bed' rules him out, and, in my opinion, Ned's own opinion of Rhaegar's character (contrasted with lustful-bastard-sires) rules him out.
Arthur presents far less problems. First and foremost among them, we know less about Arthur. All we really know about him is that he was a great swordsman and that Starks seem to hold him in a place of special honor. House Dayne seems to hold Ned similarly dear. There is more afoot I believe, and I have a feeling Jon is the missing piece. But, that's another discussion.
Arthur also was not married, and a father to two trueborn children. While he had his KG vows, we don't know Lyanna's opinion on vows of celibacy. All we know is her view on infidelity.
Ned is not the type of man to judge Rhaegar based on the actions of Arthur, so that might explain the ambivalence.
In my mind, the ambivalence is better explained by Rhaegar simply having nothing to do with Jon Snow's birth or Lyanna's death. A new approach is needed.
We might just have to agree to disagree again. Ned's capacity for sympathy almost floored me in the scene when Cersei says she and Jaime threw Bran out the window. Ned wonders almost immediately what he would have done in Cersei's place. He's a better person than I.
And he's clearly been compartmentalizing Rhaegar--surprised every time he thinks of him in KL. Throw in the "Promise me, Ned"--could easily be "Promise me you'll forgive him." And Ned does the best he can--compartmentalizing.
I don't want to use Lyanna's promise as a trump card, but it has a LOT of power with Ned. And also works if Rhaegar helped Arthur and Lyanna. And works if Arthur eloped with Lyanna. (Because where the hell was Rhaegar and why did he say nothing?)
Bottom line--I see a LOT of problems with RLJ. But this scene doesn't do it for me as a death knell. Not without more info.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
-gay's got to be considered. And would be very interesting.
And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. Why would the prince have thus given insult to his own wife, the Princess Elia Martell of Dorne (who was present), unless it was to help him gain the Iron Throne? The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia’s delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar’s cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king.
Rhaegar had never won a tourney before Harrenhal. He's therefore never had to crown anybody the queen of love and beauty. And that's exactly what that says: queen of love and beauty. You have to crown a woman. And who does he crown the first time he ever has to do this? Not his own wife who was delicately beautiful, but the boyish Stark girl. He picked a girl who looked like a guy.
Have also wondered about Cersei and Kevan's comments re: Cersei's "womanly" beauty at a young age. Compared to "flat chested" (Cersei's thinking) Elia.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
And agree on Ned--would be SO much more helpful if he were more verbose--in his head and out. But now, no head. Sad.
Is it wrong that I laughed audibly?
Hope not, or I'm a terrible person.
Plus, it is odd that now we can finally see what's "in" Ned's head, still can't find out what he knows.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
He wondered if Rhaegar was lustful. He wondered if Rhaegar strayed and took his pleasure from multiple beds. He wondered if Rhaegar fathered bastards like Robert...
So here's where I run into difficulty with this reading. Let's just change a word for illustrative purposes.
"He wondered if Eddard had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not." Works pretty well. When Littlefinger took Ned to a brothel the last time, Ned was furious and almost knifed him.
So, if this phrase argues against Rhaegar being Jon's father or the father of any bastards, it would equally argue against Ned. Or indeed anyone else who would not seem likely to frequent brothels, like Arthur Dayne, who was sworn to chastity.
I think there's a flaw in your equivalence. Not frequenting brothels doesn't imply not being lustful, or not having bastards. Frequenting brothels is just one expression of that. Roose Bolton probably didn't frequent brothels, but he did lustfully pursue the tradition of first night and had a bastard. Lots of bastards come from a romantic affair out of wedlock, rather than visits to brothels. All this really tells us about Rhaegar is that Ned wouldn't expect him to pay for sex, or have Robert's casual attitude towards that, and bastards -- not that he wouldn't expect him to have a bastard.
A few other quick comments on your points in the OP:
6. It's possible that Rhaegar could have had some such reasoning without Ned knowing about it. 8. "Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home." Applies because they were in Lannisport, and because Robert was married to Cersei. When Ned hid Jon, Robert was unmarried. 9. Ned doesn't know this yet. As far as he knows at this point, none of these bastards are Robert's heirs because they are bastards and Robert has three trueborn children. 11. This is a tricky one, because it's not true. In chapter 33, we had "Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen." That seems to be the same day, so this is simply wrong. There are several other points where we see Ned talking about or thinking about Rhaegar. I think rather than struggling to figure out what's going on in Ned's head here, we need to ask what was going on in GRRM's head when he wrote that.
Post by regular jon umber on Aug 6, 2015 7:02:49 GMT
I think you need to invert the point slightly: if you knew someone had fathered a bastard, you would suspect them of something like 'frequenting brothels', if you knew nothing else about them.
(And Ned most likely knew a lot more about Dayne that Rhaegar.)
When Littlefinger took Ned to a brothel the last time, Ned was furious and almost knifed him.
Because Littlefinger told Ned that Catelyn was inside
"Your wife is inside," Littlefinger said. It was the final insult. "Brandon was too kind to you," Ned said as he slammed the small man back against a wall and shoved his dagger up under the little pointed chin beard.
Before that he was just angry that Littlefinger wasted so much time and secrecy just to bring him to a brothel
Finally Baelish drew rein in front of a ramshackle building, three stories, timbered, its windows bright with lamplight in the gathering dusk. The sounds of music and raucous laughter drifted out and floated over the water. Beside the door swung an ornate oil lamp on a heavy chain, with a globe of leaded red glass. Ned Stark dismounted in a fury. "A brothel," he said as he seized Littlefinger by the shoulder and spun him around. "You've brought me all this way to take me to a brothel."
It's the idea that Cat is inside (AKA a whore) that makes Ned try to kill Littlefinger. Ned isn't angry he's at a brothel. He's angry that he's spent the afternoon going in circles, taking secret passages and what not, just to have ended up at a brothel, and then for Littlefinger to tell him his wife is a whore. He's mad at having his time wasted and his wife insulted.
Here's his actual feelings on the matter of being at the brothel
“My lord, no,” an urgent voice called out. “He speaks the truth.” There were footsteps behind him. Ned spun, knife in hand, as an old white-haired man hurried toward them. He was dressed in brown roughspun, and the soft flesh under his chin wobbled as he ran. “This is no business of yours,” Ned began; then, suddenly, the recognition came. He lowered the dagger, astonished. “Ser Rodrik?” Rodrik Cassel nodded. “Your lady awaits you upstairs.” Ned was lost. “Catelyn is truly here? This is not some strange jape of Littlefinger’s?” He sheathed his blade. “Would that it were, Stark,” Littlefinger said. “Follow me, and try to look a shade more lecherous and a shade less like the King’s Hand. It would not do to have you recognized. Perhaps you could fondle a breast or two, just in passing.” They went inside, through a crowded common room where a fat woman was singing bawdy songs while pretty young girls in linen shifts and wisps of colored silk pressed themselves against their lovers and dandled on their laps. No one paid Ned the least bit of attention. Ser Rodrik waited below while Littlefinger led him up to the third floor, along a corridor, and through a door. Inside, Catelyn was waiting. She cried out when she saw him, ran to him, and embraced him fiercely. “My lady,” Ned whispered in wonderment. “Oh, very good,” said Littlefinger, closing the door. “You recognized her.” “I feared you’d never come, my lord,” she whispered against his chest. “Petyr has been bringing me reports. He told me of your troubles with Arya and the young prince. How are my girls?” “Both in mourning, and full of anger,” he told her. “Cat, I do not understand. What are you doing in King’s Landing? What’s happened?” Ned asked his wife. “Is it Bran? Is he...” Dead was the word that came to his lips, but he could not say it. “It is Bran, but not as you think,” Catelyn said. Ned was lost. “Then how? Why are you here, my love? What is this place?” “Just what it appears,” Littlefinger said, easing himself onto a window seat. “A brothel. Can you think of a less likely place to find a Catelyn Tully?” He smiled. “As it chances, I own this particular establishment, so arrangements were easily made. I am most anxious to keep the Lannisters from learning that Cat is here in King’s Landing.”
Doesn't care.
And here's him with his men at another brothel
He found Littlefinger in the brothel's common room, chatting amiably with a tall, elegant woman who wore a feathered gown over skin as black as ink. By the hearth, Heward and a buxom wench were playing at forfeits. From the look of it, he'd lost his belt, his cloak, his mail shirt, and his right boot so far, while the girl had been forced to unbutton her shift to the waist. Jory Cassel stood beside a rain-streaked window with a wry smile on his face, watching Heward turn over tiles and enjoying the view. Ned paused at the foot of the stair and pulled on his gloves. "It's time we took our leave. My business here is done."
Doesn't care that Heward is playing strip poker with a whore or that Jory's enjoying looking at the whores
A warm rain was pelting down from a starless black sky as they walked to the stables. Ned drew up the hood of his cloak. Jory brought out his horse. Young Wyl came right behind him, leading Littlefinger's mare with one hand while the other fumbled with his belt and the lacings of his trousers. A barefoot whore leaned out of the stable door, giggling at him. "Will we be going back to the castle now, my lord?" Jory asked. Ned nodded and swung into the saddle. Littlefinger mounted up beside him. Jory and the others followed.
Doesn't care that Wyl just fucked a whore
“Is there any other service I might perform?” “I suppose you’d best begin visiting whorehouses.” “Hard duty, my lord.” Jory grinned. “The men will be glad to help. Porther has made a fair start already."
Doesn't care when Jory jokes about having to go to a brothel on business, and hasn't stopped any of his men from going to them.
I agree with your premise that Ned Stark wouldn't frequent brothels though. But the anger Ned experienced had nothing to do with brothels. He's clearly ambivalent about them. Doesn't go himself, but doesn't care about them or think there's anything wrong with brothels
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
So here's where I run into difficulty with this reading. Let's just change a word for illustrative purposes.
"He wondered if Eddard had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not." Works pretty well. When Littlefinger took Ned to a brothel the last time, Ned was furious and almost knifed him.
So, if this phrase argues against Rhaegar being Jon's father or the father of any bastards, it would equally argue against Ned. Or indeed anyone else who would not seem likely to frequent brothels, like Arthur Dayne, who was sworn to chastity.
markg171 addressed this quite well just above, but I would argue that chastity is not the issue in the first place.
Rather that develop a treatise on vows, chastity, or fidelity, Ned is making a very simple observation: Rhaegar was not like Robert.
I think there's a flaw in your equivalence. Not frequenting brothels doesn't imply not being lustful, or not having bastards. Frequenting brothels is just one expression of that. Roose Bolton probably didn't frequent brothels, but he did lustfully pursue the tradition of first night and had a bastard. Lots of bastards come from a romantic affair out of wedlock, rather than visits to brothels. All this really tells us about Rhaegar is that Ned wouldn't expect him to pay for sex, or have Robert's casual attitude towards that, and bastards -- not that he wouldn't expect him to have a bastard.
So Rhaegar was like Roose Bolton? Rhaegar was lustful? Rhaegar took his infidelity seriously? Rhaegar took his bastards seriously?
What in the text suggests any of this?
For a moment, I'd ask that you set aside the theories, and the implications of those theories. Let's examine the text itself, and see what we might learn.
A few other quick comments on your points in the OP:
6. It's possible that Rhaegar could have had some such reasoning without Ned knowing about it. 8. "Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home." Applies because they were in Lannisport, and because Robert was married to Cersei. When Ned hid Jon, Robert was unmarried. 9. Ned doesn't know this yet. As far as he knows at this point, none of these bastards are Robert's heirs because they are bastards and Robert has three trueborn children. 11. This is a tricky one, because it's not true. In chapter 33, we had "Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen." That seems to be the same day, so this is simply wrong. There are several other points where we see Ned talking about or thinking about Rhaegar. I think rather than struggling to figure out what's going on in Ned's head here, we need to ask what was going on in GRRM's head when he wrote that.
6. I'm not sure what reasoning you are referring to...
8. Indeed. We agree.
9. Exactly! Ned never made the connection until Sansa blurted out that Joff was a lion. Why wouldn't Ned make the connection if he were staring at a near-perfect recreation of what he found (a young girl abed with a royal bastard)... if Ned was protecting a hidden heir born of lust, you'd think he'd recognize Jon Arryn doing the same. Ned isn't the quickest player in the game, but he isn't quite Hodor.
11. It is tricky, if Rhaegar is important. He need not be. I know he is for RLJ, and that motivates the need to resolve these discrepancies. But it need not be so.
What's more important, to me, is not how frequently Ned remembers Rhaegar, nor the chronological order of his recollections, but his assessment of Rhaegar's character.
Set aside the fan theories, and ask yourself, what do we learn in this chapter?
What do we learn about Lyanna Stark?
What do we learn about Jon Snow?
What do we learn about Rhaegar Targaryen?
I would say we learn that Lyanna was not fond of infidelity, nor of men who father bastards across the realm.
I would say we learn that Jon Snow is a bastard sired by a lustful man.
I would say we learn that Rhaegar, unlike Robert Baratheon, did not lustfully visit brothels and father bastards.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
As I was rereading this passage, I couldn't help but wonder if we get a passage where Ned has a moral revulsion to Cersei & Jaime's attraction? I want to say in the Red Keep's godswood he had a moment of that. But what I'm getting at here is that little tiny notion in my head that if there wasn't a moment of Ned being revolted at the incest, perhaps that itself says a lot.
Damnit, I finished a reread of AGOT and now it seems I have to go back to it.
I think you need to invert the point slightly: if you knew someone had fathered a bastard, you would suspect them of something like 'frequenting brothels', if you knew nothing else about them.
No, and I would find that a very peculiar suspicion for someone to have. The two things are not directly connected.
Ok, clearly someone who frequents brothels, particularly in an era before decent contraception, would be more likely to have bastards. Does that mean that we can conclude that someone who does not frequent brothels is less likely to have bastards? Nope. It's not reversible like that. Frequent visits to brothels may be cause, and having bastards effect. However there's more than one possible causation of the same effect.
We can say that someone who drinks a lot of whiskey every day is likely to get drunk a lot. Can we conclude that someone who doesn't drink whiskey can't have been drunk?
Not being the kind of person who frequents brothels does not stop someone from having a bastard. Or indeed make it particularly unlikely.
I think you need to invert the point slightly: if you knew someone had fathered a bastard, you would suspect them of something like 'frequenting brothels', if you knew nothing else about them.
No, and I would find that a very peculiar suspicion for someone to have. The two things are not directly connected.
Ok, clearly someone who frequents brothels, particularly in an era before decent contraception, would be more likely to have bastards. Does that mean that we can conclude that someone who does not frequent brothels is less likely to have bastards? Nope. It's not reversible like that. Frequent visits to brothels may be cause, and having bastards effect. However there's more than one possible causation of the same effect.
We can say that someone who drinks a lot of whiskey every day is likely to get drunk a lot. Can we conclude that someone who doesn't drink whiskey can't have been drunk?
Not being the kind of person who frequents brothels does not stop someone from having a bastard. Or indeed make it particularly unlikely.
Kingmonkey we have to remember this is not about what "we" may think per our mordern sensibilities this has to do with the cultural ideologies of the time.This is isn't a generalization this is about what Ned is saying and thinking about Rhaegar someone who he didn't know intimately,But Rhaegar had an "air" associated with him that can't be ignored in this case and true or not it wasn't that of a manly man.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"