Post by voice on Oct 11, 2015 15:51:36 GMT
Ummm... are you seriously trying to argue that Lyanna would make a judgement about whether Rhaegar was right for her based on her subsequent death? 'Cos no.
What? Lost interest? What makes you conclude that? Don't you think it's more likely that he left Lyanna at the ToJ because he had been summoned to KL on pain of the death of his children than because he lost interest?
There is absolutely nothing to indicate that Rhaegar lost interest in Lyanna or intended to abandon her there. He left his guards there, remember. That makes it a pretty firm bet he was intending on going back. And who says he left her without a midwife (remember the "they" and the Wylla speculation?) or that he had the faintest clue she was going to die?
Not at all. Her issue with her betrothal to Robert was that Robert's nature was to be unfaithful, NOT that he had once been unfaithful. It's a massive jump to go from not wanting a man who would regularly cheat on her (by visiting brothels, for example) to not wanting a man who was previously married (but was not the kind of man who would frequent brothels).
Her problem with Robert is directly connected to Robert frequenting brothels. Rhaegar did not frequent brothels. I find it very strange that you insist that her problem with Robert would apply to Rhaegar too, when Rhaegar is specifically and uniquely brought up as being not like Robert in that very respect.
I think you know that is not canon my friend... He was currently married, and that makes all the difference.
I think we somewhat agree that Lyanna was not overjoyed by her betrothal to Robert because he was not the type of guy who would keep to one bed. Robert was lustful, by both Ned's and Lyanna's summation.
I think we also agree that Rhaegar does not seem to have been equally lustful. We hear of no bastards from him in the text, nor even a hint that he ever cheated on Elia, aside from the abduction tale.
I think we also agree the abduction itself is likely a mischaracterization.
I am not proposing that Rhaegar was like Robert, nor that Lyanna would likely rebuff them for the same reasons. Instead, I am saying Lyanna's affinity for fidelity seems quite hypocritical if she herself became a mistress, and lured Rhaegar away from his lady wife. And I think the touch of wolf blood sentiment makes it clear that Lyanna was quite in control of her situation.
Thus, I think it more likely Lyanna was with an unmarried man, rather than a man sworn to keep to one bed.
There's such a thing as a loveless marriage. In fact it's strongly indicated that the marriage of Elia and Rhaegar -- an arranged marriage, not a marriage for love -- was indeed a loveless marriage.
Marrying someone you don't love out of duty and then later falling in love with someone else is not remotely the same as regularly swearing undying love to women and then forgetting them in the morning.
Can you imagine Sansa or Arya sleeping with a married man, who doted on his children and made sure they each had a song?
Can you imagine Rhaegar, who already believed he had fathered tptwp being overcome with love/lust for a runaway, and leaving his lady wife and children to father a bastard for no apparent reason? Again, we can rule out prophecy as a motivator, as Aegon was tptwp in Rhaegar's eyes, and the future king.
We don't know what happened. What we're discussing is your suggestion that Lyanna's comments about Rob rule out R+L=J. We're dealing with a specific narrow scenario here -- that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a consensual relationship -- which is not the only possible explanation for R+L=J. In that scenario, Lyanna's complaint about Robert has no bearing on Rhaegar if she believed Rhaegar was in love with her. Which might not have been the case, but on the other hand might have been, therefore it's not a barrier. In other scenarios Lyanna's attitude towards Robert would not be a barrier anyway. Either way, it's not a barrier.
Her complaint about Robert was about him likely choosing infidelity. Her courtship of Rhaegar, if it happened, was likely about him choosing infidelity.
You've got things mixed up there. It's made clear multiple times that a betrothal can happen at any age, but "wedding and bedding" must wait until the girl's "flowering". Lyanna was easily old enough in Westerosi terms. Remember Sansa burning her sheets to attempt to hide her first menstuation? Sansa was 11 at the start of ASOIAF when she was old enough for betrothal but not marriage. Note that Lyanna was 15 or 16. That makes her 2-3 years older than Sansa was when Sansa was considered old enough for Tyrion to bed her and get her pregnant.
Keep in mind that Ned was married in a double-wedding where one of the spouses (Lysa) was the same age as Lyanna. That's not compatible with the idea that Ned would have considered Lyanna too young.
A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I
"She's too skinny," Viserys said. His hair, the same silver-blond as hers, had been pulled back tightly behind his head and fastened with a dragonbone brooch. It was a severe look that emphasized the hard, gaunt lines of his face. He rested his hand on the hilt of the sword that Illyrio had lent him, and said, "Are you sure that Khal Drogo likes his women this young?"
"She has had her blood. She is old enough for the khal," Illyrio told him, not for the first time. "Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes … she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt … and highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo." When he released her hand, Daenerys found herself trembling.
"I suppose," her brother said doubtfully. "The savages have queer tastes. Boys, horses, sheep …"
If Rhaegar had kidnapped and raped her, then yes. If they fell in love and ran away together, then absolutely not. Of course Ned would see a slaver as being far worse than someone who loved foolishly.
Does Ned hate the person who "dishonoured" Ashara at Harrenhal? I rather doubt it.
Does Ned hate Robert, who repeatedly dishonoured women left, right and centre? Clearly not.
Ned does not hate people who act foolishly for love. Or even for lust.
- had cheated on his wife
- kept Lyanna sequestered
- impregnated his 15 year old little sister, who was betrothed to his foster brother and best friend
- left her to die before her time
- sparked a rebellion that left many of his closest friends and family dead
- left Ned with Troutheart Stonefish instead of the lovely Ashara Dayne
- Far less frequently than Robert, who Ned isn't contemptuous of for it.
- Unless he didn't. Who says she wasn't there willingly?
- Who was of an age for that to happen.
- Zero reason to assume that he had reason to think she'd die, zero reason to assume he wanted to go.
- No more than did Lyanna, or Brandon, neither of whom Ned has contempt for.
- That was Aerys. It's well established that Ned doesn't hold with blaming people for the actions of their parents.
2. whether willing or not, Rhaegar helped to sequester a runaway girl. If I found a 14 year old, I would send her parents a raven letting them know she was on her way home.
3. Mayhaps. It is definitely a grey area in the novels. We know Dany's childbirth did not go smoothly, and the same appears to be true for Lyanna...and, like Dany, it seems a very young age by Targaryen standards to bed a girl - at least from Viserys' pov.
4. Even without fevers and extreme youth, childbearing is a life-threatening ordeal. Even with modern medicine, complications arise. In Westeros, mothers die in childbirth quite regularly. Add in the extreme youth, and Rhaegar had every reason to think Lyanna could die in childbirth. There is also Lyanna's possibly-sickly nature to consider.
5. We agree. All the more reason to wonder if Rhaegar wasn't simply one more misunderstood character.
6. Aerys wouldn't have killed Bran and Rick if Lyanna had not spent some time away from home, and, if RLJ, then Rhaegar helped to keep her away from home. I agree, this isn't something Ned would lay at Rhaegar's feet, but it is one more reason why Ned's musings on Rhaegar are so very nonchalant.
Wait, no way did Ned deem Aerys a good king. "No," Ned told his dying friend, "not so bad as Aerys, Your Grace. Not near so bad as Aerys."
I agree with you that Ned's attitude towards Rhaegar makes it very unlikely he deemed Rhaegar (or the Targs in general) as responsible for Lyanna's death. What scenario is that? Unless Ned did believe Robert's version of events, why would he blame Rhaegar for Lyanna's death? Lyanna died of a fever, in her birthing bed.
Rheaegar was not wielding +5 vorpal sperm.
Same could be said of Dany's womb, for Drogo.
In my scenario, Rhaegar had nothing to do with Lyanna's bloody bed, nor her secret location. It was all Lyanna's doing.