Post by voice on Aug 3, 2017 22:22:05 GMT
Aug 3, 2017 21:05:45 GMT danl said:
This is great. My biggest reservation is that combustion seems like an odd tool for creatures of ice to use. It seems like ice and fire are both involved in constructing that barrier.Is it? Ser Waymar Royce's sword combusted from the cold... And then, there are Gared's timeless words of wisdom:
It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold.
And to this day, watchers upon cold walls claim to be "the fire that burns against the cold", and the "light that brings the dawn". Interesting words for men who speak from big blocks of ice.
...even more interesting when one considers the relationship between Words, Wind, and Winter.
Aug 3, 2017 21:05:45 GMT danl said:
I wonder how Bran fits into this when he looks past the Wall and ultimately into the heart of Winter? This definitely indicates that he has the power to spy on the Others and the Wall is not a barrier to whatever he is doing. Maybe he has assistance from both sides of the Wall?Indeed. I was hoping someone would bring that up. I don't claim to know all the answers, but Bran's elevated consciousness while lying in that coma is something I've thought a lot about. It is my belief that Bran was able to see north and north and north again because his conscious self (GRRM's version of a "spirit") had left his body, and was free to travel upon the wind. (See Varamyr's spirit flight after his death.)
Bran didn't die, but he sure came close to death. Such astral projection/spirit flight stuff is old hat in shamanic traditions, and I think GRRM has done a masterful job in bringing that magic to the page. If I had to choose one thing that I respect the most about ASOIAF, it would be this. GRRM really seems to understand what that elated state is like, and I must assume he has enjoyed his fair share of hallucinogenic drugs. LOL
So, to address your point, I think the Wall has no affect on other forms of power. It did nothing to impede the power that raised Othor and Jafer, and did nothing to impede Bran's spirit flight. It also seems to have done nothing to impede Bloodraven's weirnet connection.
Both Bran and Bloodraven are able to view southron events from their northron hollow. And Bran was able to grow into a tree with three eyes while infiltrating one of Jon's wolf dreams. When Bran did that, he was hiding in Winterfell's crypts and Jon was in the Frostfangs.
This tells me that the weirwood-connection is not blocked by the Wall in the way that the warg-bond is.
The Wall is a very specialized barrier, it just doesn't block what men believe it blocks.
Aug 3, 2017 21:05:45 GMT danl said:
This is so obvious that I haven't ever really noticed it. Or, even worse, I once noticed it, briefly wondered about it, then moved on and essentially forgot it. This, together with the hinge of the world reference, indicate that the important thing about the Wall may not be that big wall.If there was a pact that included a border, maybe each side constructed a barrier. The no man's land between that barriers filled with ice and snow which ultimately grew into the Wall.
While that is a very cool image, I must default to our tales of Brandon. Rather than be a passive event, the Wall is attributed to the ambitions of a Stark.
Considering how much they like to call themselves the Kings in the North, and wield swords named Ice, I have to think there's some truth to those tales.
Aug 3, 2017 21:05:45 GMT danl said:
I disbelieve Mance's whim story. Maybe he wanted to see Robert, but, even discounting any difficulty crossing the Wall, the journey from the Wall to Winterfell is substantial. That doesn't change your ultimate point that the Wall can be crossed by people, but any passage other than through the Wall is dangerous and difficult. I wonder if Mance can use the black gate?Substantial, I agree. But both Bael and Abel were able to cross the Wall and invade Winterfell with relative ease. Mance has now done it twice.
I suspect Mance has no idea the Black Gate exists. If he did, he wouldn't have sent Thenns to scale the Wall, or marched his army to Castle Black.
Coldhands is a living relic of an ancient time. I think his knowledge of the Black Gate is one of those old truths that the realms of men have forgotten.
"Spare me your but's, boy," Lord Mormont interrupted. "I would not be sitting here were it not for you and that beast of yours. You fought bravely … and more to the point, you thought quickly. Fire! Yes, damn it. We ought to have known. We ought to have remembered. The Long Night has come before. Oh, eight thousand years is a good while, to be sure … yet if the Night's Watch does not remember, who will?"