Post by voice on Aug 5, 2017 14:33:37 GMT
Aug 5, 2017 11:40:02 GMT lynn said:
The only thing we know for certain at this point is that the wall blocks the direwolf/Stark bond. We don't know that it affects other wargs. Varamyr calls himself a skinchanger and a warg although he has never shackled a direwolf. He has slaved wolves but I think there is a difference. Direwolves have a specific power while wolves do not.Given the lack of skinchangers of any kind south of the Wall, and number of them north of it, I think we have cause to suspect the Wall does not discriminate against the warg-bond alone.
I know this OP sounds like I'm arguing against Mel's powers, but I'm truly not. I think Mel is a fascinating character, and I think she is incredibly powerful. The real purpose of this OP is to get people to look at the Wall in a new light. It blocks the bond of warg and wolf, and the telepathic pack-bond experienced by wolves themselves. But it does not block the cosmic bond that connects those with eyes like blue stars.
That is, in my opinion, a huge deal that throws 10000 years of northern lore into doubt.
The Starks have always been friends of the Watch, and intimately associated with the Wall and Winterfell.
Why would the Kings of Winter build a Wall that blocks the bonds of wargs (and, imo, skinchangers), and tell everyone it is meant to stop the Others... when it clearly doesn't.
Most people would be too smart to believe that a wall of fire will stop dragons, who are fire made flesh. Yet they believed these Starks with direwolves at their feet and swords upon their laps when they said that a wall of ice will stop the Others, who are ice made flesh.
This is my beef. I have no beef with Mel, aside from her tendency to burn weirwoods. I am the Lorax, and I speak for the trees! LOL
So yes. Direwolves do have a specific power, but I think we see evidence that all skinchanger-powers are severed by the Wall given that (theories aside) we have no Westerosi skinchangers south of the Wall and enough north of it to fill gatherings and conventions. (GRRM's nod to Cons?)
And yes, V6 is both a skinchanger and a warg. All wargs are skinchangers, but not all skinchangers are wargs. A warg is a skinchanger, bonded with a wolf. And wolves wed for life, whereas other animals might wish to flee (like V6's shadowcat).
While I can certainly imagine some scenarios in which the designer of the Wall might wish to isolate Starks from direwolves, and I agree that this occurred, I do not think that the Wall's influence is limited to Starks and direwolves.
I think Orell's incinerated Eagle is evidence of that, but of course, that's the debate at hand.
But the real intrigue, imo, is the fact that the Wall breaks that connection while allowing the starry one.
Aug 5, 2017 11:40:02 GMT lynn said:
Clearly the Wall doesn't block skinchangers if Borroq and his boar are anything to go by. Although, I do suspect that Borroq is also a warg. Borroq is one of the few skinschangers that Varamyr leaves unmolested and his beast is quite unusual.This example doesn't work, as Borroq and his boar were never separated from one another by the Wall.
Aug 5, 2017 11:40:02 GMT lynn said:
It's curious that Martin puts this bit of dialogue in Cersei's mouth:I think that points to the fact that "warg" and "skinchanger" are interchangeable terms for some, yet provide distinctions in the dialects of others.
Aug 5, 2017 11:40:02 GMT lynn said:
No living man can sound Dragon Binder and survive. It is a cup of fire. Only someone who can drink down the flame can use it. If we need a parallel to that horn; then the great horn that Mance claims is Joramun's horn would fit the bill.Regardless, the horn burned the man from the inside because of a magical ward, not because he was being skinchanged by a fiery priestess from Asshai.
Aug 5, 2017 11:40:02 GMT lynn said:
We might ask why another dragon binding horn is hidden under a glacier north of the wall. Certainly Mel would know it. It's the only reason she could put on a display of destroying a horn that legend says will bring down the Wall. Except that she didn't destroy it; she put on a show of doing so and along with the glamors employed with Rattleshirt and Stannis sword she herself nearly combusts.
I'm not convinced that horn was a dragon-binding horn, but it's certainly an interesting line of inquiry.
Aug 5, 2017 11:40:02 GMT lynn said:
Mel tells Jon that the wall is as much her place as it is his. What does she mean by it? She says her powers are increasing at the Wall and that the power of the Wall can be used. Her presence at the time of Varamyr's burning can't be dismissed. We have Mel's connection to Rattleshirt via another crystal. The Wall is another form of crystal. What happens if her crystal is connected to the Wall in the same way that she was connected to Rattleshirt's crystal. The Lord of Light chose to resurrect Beric; did he also choose to eliminate an enemy of Jon Snow? Was Mel his instrument? I'm not dismissing Mel's presence at the Wall. And I agree her powers are growing. All power is growing, after all.
I just think it is odd that we are so quick to attribute a new power to Mel in that moment that never claimed to have had.
I think Mel is powerful, but I don't think she is powerful enough to telepathically cause the bonded animals of skinchangers to burst into flame. If she is, I think that bodes ill for Summer, Nymeria, and Ghost. And I really don't think GRRM would write a character able to smite foes with a glance. It's just not his style.
Aug 5, 2017 11:40:02 GMT lynn said:
However, it may be that the Wall does present a fiery barrier. To quote Jojen "If ice can burn, then love and hate can mate." Indeed, and Dawn (formerly known as Ice) burns red. (Sorry for the tangent, but SlyWren would surely be wondering why we aren't talking about the liminal Sword of Starfall, yet. )
But yes, it is my belief that ice can burn. We've seen frozen fire burn already, and as Gared said, "Nothing burns like the cold."
I've long argued that we see a song of ice, and fire, in the cold north:
[I see it more like a magnetic pole. The Northern Lights are the result of cosmic radiation. The light shifts because of the Earth's magnetic pole. It truly is a Song of Ice and Fire, alive with light.
A nice explanation:
I believe GRRM is playing with this natural phenomenon and giving it some extra juice.
There are many different types of light reflection. Some that I think are most closely related to the blue eyes of the others, blades alive with light, and circadian rhythm, are:
Rayleigh Scattering:
Tyndall Scattering:
I think what killed
...particularly now that the Others have crept southward.
It is my belief that the Others never entirely disappeared. They simply retreated and have been biding their time beyond that curtain. Now that cosmic winter has drawn near, they have been able to travel southward as that curtain itself has moved southward. A convoluted interpretation, I know. LOL but I am a sucker for astronomy and electromagnetism.
Aug 5, 2017 11:40:02 GMT lynn said:
I'm reminded of Mel and Dany's visions of a man wreathed in flame. If the Wall is the cause of the eagle burning; then it presents an intriguing possibility for Jon's return to his own body without intervention by Mel. You could say that the Wall doesn't just block the warg bond, it breaks it.Bingo. I would even go a step further, and say that the Wall attacks the bond that exists between the host-animal and the skinchanger.
Jon experienced what this is like when passively disconnected from his wolf. Varamyr experienced what this is like when actively connected to his eagle.