Do the Stark's have Targaryen blood in their line?

This has been bothering me for some time. Probably since my first reread, which was probably 4-5 years ago now, but I was overwhelmed with information and idea's and theories I let a deeper look pass me by. When The World of Ice and Fire was published, this flared my tinfoil again. And now the idea has reared it's ugly head again, so I thought I would see what other people think about this possibility.

Much of my initial speculation comes from this conversation between Robert and Ned.


Robert plainly tells Ned that he or Jon Arryn should have been king, but Ned replies that Robert had the better claim. Better claim, not the only claim!!!



So, we know that Robert Baratheon has Targaryen blood in his line from his grandmother and that was part of the rational that was used for Robert to claim the Iron Throne.



Jaehaerys I and Alysanne had a daughter called Daella who was married to Rodrik Arryn, Lord of the Eyrie, and they had at least one child, Aemma Arryn, who married Viserys I Targaryen and was the mother of Rhaenyra, the queen who never was. Aemma is listed as the only child of Daella and Rodrik, but if that is so, then the line of descent in the Vale should come through Rhaenyra's line, and it does not. Or not as far as I can tell. Which makes me question that they might have had another child, probably a son but perhaps a daughter, who the Arryn line descended from. We are told of those generations of Arryn and Targaryen intermarrying for a reason, to show a connection, but the rest of the details have not been given to us yet. But if the current Arryn's carry some Targaryen blood, then this would indicate that Jon Arryn could have had a blood claim to the Iron Throne, but Robert's claim was better.



A better claim for Robert, but a claim for Jon Arryn as well. And Ned's response to Robert saying that either Jon or Ned should have been king was that Robert had the better claim. Not the better claim over Jon Arryn, but over them both, which hints to me that the Stark's might have had a claim to the Iron Throne by blood as well.



Of course, we are not told of any Stark having Targaryen blood, but that exchange of words between Robert and Ned has me questioning this possibility for a long while now, if there is indeed Dragon blood in the line of Wolves. Not as much as in the line of Stag's or even the line of Falcon's, but some Dragon blood!
It has to be further back that Robert's connection, which is three generations back.


I get that this sounds pretty out there, but that is the only sense I can make out of Ned and Robert's conversation about the claims to the throne. Ned never denies that he could have been king, only that Robert's claim was better. And while we know that truthfully, Robert won his throne as a usurper and by rebellion and conquest (like Aegon I), the claim that was used for him to ease the way was through his grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen, daughter of King Aegon V (Egg) and Betha Blackwood. Robert had Targaryen blood.



I think that Robert, Jon Arryn and Ned Stark all had Targaryen blood and all had a claim to the throne, only Robert's claim "was better".


So, we know where Robert's Targaryen blood comes from (ignoring the rumor's that Orys Baratheon was Aegon the Conqueror's bastard half-brother).

I have speculated a bit on where the possible connection to Jon Arryn could come from in the Arryn line.

But what about the Starks?

We are not given much information about the Stark lineage in the actual novels. There is no mention of Eddard Stark even having a mother until the lineage chart in TWOIAF came out (Very weird, GRRM!) Up until then, I had speculated that Ned's mother could have some Targaryen blood**, but not a direct Targaryen, or Ned's claim might have been better than Robert's, and Ned plainly tells us that is not the truth. But after TWOIAF publication, I put this idea away, as Rickard's wife Lyarra was a Stark by birth. Lyarra Stark's parents were Arya Flint and Roderik "the wandering wolf" Stark.

**It's still possible Lyarra Stark is the key in this dragon blood mystery

I did note the name Arya as being a family name in the Stark line (or Flint line) as well as Sansa. I know there had been long debate over those names. We get other names in the Stark lineage chart as well, female names like Sarra, Alys, Raya, and Mariah, which all with a little spelling change, could be Saerra, Alys(anne), Rhaea, or Mareah; names with Targaryen flare! I have long been drawn to possible name similarities between character's in the story. We have a Serena Stark, a Alysanne Stark, Arrana Stark, Lysara, Lyarra, another Lyanna (besides our infamous sister of Ned). I have long wondered if Lyanna could be a variation of Alysanne, with the same letters, just a different order, which could include all the variations of Lysara, Lyarra, or Lynara.

But enough name speculation, because that could all just be odd coincidences. And we don't have names of Stark women before the lineage chart, so these names that I associate with sounding Targaryen could be Stark names for thousands of years.

But I will mention, as most people have already probably noted, we have a gap in our Stark lineage chart. We start with the names of Cregan's grandparents (Benjen Stark and Lysa Locke), and we have his parents names as well (Rickon Stark and Gilliane Glover), but we are left with a large gap before this, between the last King in North and first Lord of Winterfell, Torrhen Stark. Approx 80-100 years, I would think, depending on how quickly these generations turned over. After all, we get Ned dead at 35 with his son Robb the lord at age 15, and Ned himself Lord at 18-19 and his own father probably dead in his mid to late 30's. It's possible we are missing 5-8 generations of Stark marriages after Torrhen but before Cregan.

We don't know when Cregan was born, but we know he died in 157 AC, or even after. We also don't know how old he was when he died, but he is known as the Old Man of the North, so it's possible he was older than average men at his death. Jon Arryn was considered old when he died, but also old when he was warring during the rebellion. I would put him anywhere between 60 and 80 at his death. The Jon Arryn calculation puts him around 80 years old at his death. We can use that, I suppose, as I don't have anything better to go by. So, if Jon Arryn was old when he died, and Cregan Stark was old when he died, perhaps we can assume that Cregan was around 80 when he died, making his birth around 77 AC. We do know that Cregan went to Kings Landing near the end of the Dance of the Dragon's which waged between 129-131 AC, so the Hour of the Dragon, when Cregan ruled as Hand was 131 or 132 AC. After this, Cregan had time to go home to the north and live for 20+ more years. We don't have dates for any of Cregan's marriages, but he had three marriages that produced eleven children, if my count is correct. Good job, Cregan!

Part of Cregan's actions when he was in south lead to what is known as the Pact of Ice and Fire, which basically was an agreement that a Targaryen princess was supposed to marry a Stark heir. Was this what Cregan was hoping for? Or did he ask or something else and this was what ended up being negotiated? I have no idea and as far as we know, this deal that Cregan arranged never happened, but I wonder if this wasn't the first Targaryen-Stark pact for a marriage. Cregan's pact didn't work out, but perhaps Torrhen's did.

Okay, please allow be a bit of wild speculation about Torrhen Stark and Aegon I Targaryen.

Just as we don't know all the details of what Cregan may have asked for while he was in the south, we also have no idea what Torrhen and Aegon's agreed to on the banks of the Trident. We know that the negotiations between Torrhen's bastard brother Brandon Snow and three maester's took all night and many trips across the mighty river. I think some important things were agreed to before Torrhen knelt and gave up his kingship and his crown, and one of those things could have involved a marriage pact. Lot's of speculation on my part and I can see why people wouldn't see it my way, but just don't think Torrhen gave up the north without gaining something in return. Something more than his life and a lordship. The Lannister's got the same thing, life and a lordship, and they faced and fought the Targaryen's at the Field of Fire, causing thousands of deaths, deaths on both sides of that battle. The Stark's and the Arryn's both bent the knee with no fight, though people in the North and the Vale wanted to fight. I think their consent to Aegon's rule gained them things that might not have come to other houses, houses that fought.



After all, these houses were powerful kingdoms for thousands of years, and a marriage between from the Stark line or the Arryn line might have strengthened Aegon's hold. Again, speculation on my part, but it's odd we know really don't know any details of what happened between Aegon and Torrhen. I don't think Torrhen was dumb and and I don't think he was a coward. He probably got something out of that deal, more than his life and a lordship.


So, my tinfoily pure speculation is that Torrhen probably agreed to a marriage pact, perhaps between one his children (we know he had one daughter and more than one son) and a child that Aegon was probably thought to be able to produce with one of his two wives. I think what might have caused this intial marraige pact to fail was that Aegon the Conqueror produced no daughters and only two sons, and these son's came along much later than expected. But the time Aegon had produced a male heir that could have married a Stark female, that female had already been married to  the heir of the vale, Ronnel Arryn. I speculate (again) that one of the reasons the Stark's protested this marriage to the Arryn heir was that it voided part of a pact that Torrhen made with Aegon on the banks of the Trident.


Earlier I tried to establish something of a timeline for our missing Stark generations. I suspect that a Targaryen princess married into the Stark line in these missing generations on the Stark lineage chart, sometime after Torrhen's rule and before Benjen, grandfather of Cregan. I think it's probably in-world knowledge but we have not been given the information in the books. It is probably part of a big reveal that is yet to come, otherwise I see no reason to leave the Stark lineage chart so incomplete. After all, the Targaryen lineage chart in TWOIAF goes back as far as Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys' parents, 300+ years and multiple generations. 

If the three lineage charts we get in TWOIAF, the Lannister chart is the least complete, and I suspect there is a major reveal coming for that, as well. 

So, if we have a Targaryen marrying into the Stark line, where could that fall in the time line and are there any available Targaryen princesses to marry into the north? 

I think the story of Jaehaerys I and his sister-wife Alysanne visiting the north is pretty interesting. As far as we know, these are the only Targaryen monarchs that ever visited the nort, unless we consider Robert Baratheon a Targaryen monarch, and I am certain Robert would protest. Jaehaerys and Alysanne went up to Winterfell (and the Wall) with dragons, shook a few things up, took some land from the Starks, gave some land to the Night's Watch, took away the Lord's right to the First Night (which Roose Bolton is still peeved about) and then went south again. But why did they come north?

Perhaps they already had a blood connection to the Stark's, or perhaps they lined up this blood connection with the Stark's. Alysanne and Jaehaerys has a long and fruitful marriage, with many children. They had several daughters, and all are accounted for, including early death's, marriages to siblings, marriage to the vale, given to the Faith or running away and opening brothel's in Lys and Volantis. Alysanne was born in 36 AC, and so she could have started having children as early as 13 years of age, I suppose. She is said to have died around 100 AC, a year or so after her youngest daughter Gael is said to have died. Gael was said to have been pregnant at this time or have had a child recently, making her at least 13-15 and old enough to conceive. 

I have some speculation about Gael, the Winter Child, and her elder brother, Baelon, the Spring Prince, which relate to the idea of Bael the Bard, but that is for another thread. 



I think this visit of Alysanne and Jaehaerys came pretty early in their marriage and reign, and they probably didn't have any daughters ready to be married to a Stark, but they might have had access to a few Targaryen princesses to bargain with.

I used to wonder if the Stark's didn't have some backdoor dragon blood (and I think that is still possible with my Bael the Bard belongs to Gael the Winter Child by Baelon the Spring prince tinfoil), but for Ned and Robert's conversation to make sense to me, it would need to be a legal and known marriage, (not like this idea of Rhaegar and Lyanna's secret marriage with only a heart tree as a witness). I think that if a marriage took place between Stark and Targaryen, it was well known, documented and there were children of this union.

So, if the Targaryen princesses do not belong to Jaehaerys and Alysanne, who are the possible princesses of dragon blood that could have married into the Stark line, producing little winged wolves in Winterfell.

As to any available Targaryen princesses, I actually think there were a couple that could fit the bill.



Aenys I had six children in total with his Velaryon wife, Alyssa. They had three daughters and three sons. Alysanne ended up marrying her brother Jaehaerys, and having a passel of children, and these children seem to be vaguely accounted for. Aenys and Alyssa had a daughter, Vaela, the youngest, who was reported to have died as an infant, and I suppose we should believe this. Tinfoil (my speculation) could say that Alyssa might have gotten her youngest daughter to safety, claiming the child had died, rather than having it murdered. After all, all of the children of Alyssa and Aenys were in danger from Maegor. Maegor ended up torturing and murdering Aenys and Alyssa's second son, Viserys, and I see no reason that Alyssa would not try to keep the rest of her children safe, even claiming they had died to protect their safety. But that is speculation and has no proof.
Officially, Vaella is dead.


The daughter I am thinking could be important to the Starks is Rhaena, who was supposedly the eldest daughter and she eventually married her brother Aegon. She is reported to have had twin daughters while she and Aegon were in hiding from Maegor. After Maegor killed Aegon in battle, he married Rhaena at the same time he married Jeyne Westerling and Elinor Costayne. No surviving children came from any of these marriages. But Maegor did have those twin daugthers of nephew Aegon and neice/wife Rhaena. One daughter, Rhaella, was sent to the Hightower's to be held as a hostage, and the other daugher, Aerea, was kept in Kings Landing with her mother, Rhaena, as another hostage of the crown.


A note about Rhaella vs Rhalla: (this name is spelled Rhalla in TWOIAF Targaryen lineage chart but I believe the correct spelling is Rhaella and that is what I am going to use for this theory). Like these damn names are not confusing enough as it is!


These twin daughters, Rhaella and Aerea, are super interesting to me. There is not much information on what happened to them.
They were said to be born in 43 AC, which is the same year that their father Aegon died and their mother was forced to marry their uncle Maegor. So damn confusing!


Rhaella, the hostage held for Maegor by the Hightower's, was eventually supposed to be killed on Maegor's orders. After Jaehaerys and Alysanne married and Jaehaerys declared himself for the throne, Rhaena escaped Kingslanding with Aerea on her dragon, Dreamfyre. Rhaena also stole the sword Blackfyre at this time. This lead up to the torture and death of Viserys, the young prince. After the Hightowers refused to murder Rhaella on Maegor's orders, we never hear of her again. I doubt that the Hightower's would give her up easily however, as she was still a valuable hostage for them, even if they disobeyed Maegor. Still Rhaella is a possible missing Targaryen princess that could have been married to a great house at some point. Just because we haven't been given the information yet, doesn't mean we won't get it some day.



The other twin, Aerea, the eldest, is also not heard of again after her mother snuck her out of Kingslanding, but she is the most interesting possibility to me. Aerea is perhaps pronounced just like Arya, which we know is a name that shows up a couple times in the Stark lineage chart, once with Arya Flint, and most recently with our very own Arya "daugther of Ned and Cat" Stark. Perhaps, in the missing Stark lineage, is a Aerea Targaryen that married into House Stark? It's a lot of speculation, but we do see twins in the Stark line a couple of times, and perhaps they are descended from Aerea, and possibly after such a marriage, the Stark's took the name Aerea and made it Arya, a northern version of a Valyrian name?



So, we don't really know what happened to Rhaena or her twin daughter's Aerea and Rhaella, after Jaehaerys took the throne, but perhaps one of the reasons that Jaehaerys and Alysanne made a trip to the north was because they had a blood connection to the Starks, if their sister or one of their nieces has been married into Stark family.
I think Rhaena or her daughters could be the Targaryen blood in the Stark line! Perhaps, Jaehaerys even negotiated these marriages himself. Perhaps that was one of the reasons he and Alysanne went to the north to begin with! Perhaps, with Cregan being born some time around 77AC, that one of these Targaryen princesses was his mother or probably grandmother. It perhaps makes sense that Cregan could have carried some Targaryen blood and gives some credence to how much power he wielded during the Hour of the Wolf.

So perhaps the Stark's agreed to give some of their land to the Night's Watch in exchange for a Targaryen princess! Perhaps this already happened early in Jaehaerys' reign, and it was only later he extorted land from the Stark's for the Watch? I don't have all the details worked out, but I think it's possible that the Stark's do carry Targaryen blood through Rhaena or one of her daughters.

Maybe this makes some sense over a line that we get near the end of Game, hinting at a northern marriage to the dragon lords.


Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps!!!


So, this turned out longer than I planned. As usual, I am too wordy. Hopefully it's interesting enough that people will read it to the end. I am looking forward to any feedback, good or bad, supportive or doubting, that anyone wants to share with me!