Swords of Ice and Fire. Azor L'chaim part 2

Honestly, I have never thought of the Night's Watch in the vein of slavery before, but the way you put it, it could fit those requirements.



Not going to lie, I rather like the idea of a wall of fire that linked these Five Forts. But why an ice wall to hold back ice demons and a fire wall to hold back fire demon's (if i am understanding correctly). It almost seems like fire should guard against the ice demons while ice guards against fire demons.

However, the picture in my head, the image of the 5 Forts, black fused stone 1000 ft tall with a wall of flame between them is pretty stunning in it's imagery! Very fantasy, very apocalyptic.

Walls of Ice and Fire, Swords of Ice and Fire! I do like the link back to the original Stark sword Ice. If Lightbringer needs to be remade/reforged, is this the same for Ice? Are we seeing part of this with Ned's sword? Or are the walls truly these weapons, and no such swords ever existed? But could individual weapons be a representative of far greater weapons, such as the walls? If the swords are the walls of Ice and Fire, do they both need blood sacrifice to make them strong? Perhaps Jon the sacrifice of Ice and Dany the sacrifice of Fire? Just testing idea's with my questions, more than anything.

I also am liking the concept of the 5 named warriors being different men, men who perhaps were representatives of different places in the world that all came together to fight. Could Eldric Shadowchaser be from Westeros? Perhaps he chased a shadows from a long way away. Some noted shadows in our story are the Other's, the fire demon's that Mel birthed, the dragons are noted to be shadows, and so are the direwolves. The kingsguard are sometimes noted to be shadows, so are the Night't Watch men themselves from Jon's POV, and we also have the Shadow Men from the Shadow Lands with their red masks. The Stark kings on their stone thrones in the crypts are noted to be shadows. The Great Other, perhaps? And R'hllor, Lord of Light and God of Flame and Shadow.

Ice and shadow as well as fire and shadow. How does it all fit together?

These types of magic seem to be in conflict with each other. If the children use ice magic and the weirwoods, then in the past, invaders from the east have tried to use fire to destroy the tree's, which are part of the CotF's magic. If your theory is correct, there is no reason for Mel to be in Westeros, for if the Other's and the demon's of the Lion of Night are the same thing, then they should be rising in the east as well. Or do you think that the fire magic of the east actually destroyed the demons, or at least caused them to not seek that same path for invasion? Therefore the only path for invasion is through Westeros?


Well, Ned did make a sacrifice of honor, whether he expected to die or not, and then he became a sacrifice of blood. I do think it's his blood on the sword that has changed it, or possibly it has something to do with Ilyn Payne not cleaning the blade after it was wet with blood, but I still think Ned's blood is important. There is also the color that Tobho Mott tried to dye it, although he admits the blade never turned the crimson that it was supposed to. Oathkeeper is noted to be black and red, a deep red that is almost grey (?), and Widow's Wail's coloration is described like "waves of night and blood". Perhaps it's the color that Tobho added merged with the Valyrian steel, but I am more inclined to think it's Ned's blood, that part of Ned lives in those swords. But, I might just think that because I like to think of part's of Ned remaining in the world, and not just in the weirnet, and in his bones, where ever they have settled.


I think the link in this post that you have for your original theory just links back to this thread. At least that is what happened for me when I tried to use the link.


So, the sword doesn't matter, just the blood used to make it burn?


Hmmm. I suppose this is possible, that dragonglass is the stone that the prophecy talks about, but obsidian isn't stone, it's glass. A very different material. It does seem like obsidian is capable of burning, and perhaps it takes a great deal of fire and heat to light it, and maybe that is what the dragon's are needed for. But do we have any reference of dragon's at or near the 5 Forts? I know they can range far, but it seems like if dragon's were used in the fight during the long night, some of that information would remain.

Now, obsidian is called "frozen fire" but that doesn't necessarily translate to burning obsidian meaning "burning fire". It doesn't need to burn, it would perhaps just need to be liquid, molten, to be considered fire.


That is probably part of the magic that the Valyrian's used to build with, like a concrete mixed with obsidian, using molten glass or lava with stone, to make amazing structures and statues.


Perhaps not just any acolyte with any blood, but a certain acolyte from a certain blood line? I am going to derail for a bit and discuss how I think certain maester's do have this ability and have lit these candles in the past.

Is the lighting of the glass candle part of forging a certain type of link? Maester Luwin has a Valyrian steel link on his chain, which means he studied the "higher mysteries" but he must have done some thing to pass or earn the link. Study is not enough, it seems to me that a test must be passed. Does Luwin ever talk of his night in the vault with a glass candle? I am asking for my knowledge, as I can't recall if he does or does not. But perhaps the secret is that this is not the first time that the glass candles have been lit recently in the citadel?

Perhaps the glass candles have nothing to do with the Higher Mysteries and earning a Valyrian steel link, but I have a hard time separating them in my head. And Luwin studied AND earned a link. We know from poor Pate's thoughts in the Feast prologue that you must study and pass a test to earn a link. He has studied and studied, but never earned a link. What is the test to earn a Valyrian steel link like Luwin has? Luwin tells us that only 1 in 100 maester's have earned this link, but how many study and fail to earn the link. If Valyrian steel actually has obsidian forged within the metal of the blade, then this links the Higher Myseries and their Valyrian steel link to obsidian, and the glass candles.



Maester Pycelle has a huge and impressive chain, but I think as Grand Maester, he wear's every link the citadel has available, but I don't think he earned them all. I am certain he must have earned plenty, but we never hear him described as having a Valyrian steel link, although it might be there if he wears every link. How do we ever know what Pycelle earned or was just given with is appointment as Grand Maester?

Maester Aemon's chain is never described to us in much detail, but one time we get some hints of his links.


No Valyrian steel, and I think if this link existed for Aemon, then Jon would have noted it. After all, Jon recognizes Valyrian steel in swords and he grew us with a Maester who had a Valyrian steel link.


Aemon wasn't able to light the glass candle, according to his dreams. He is not noted to wear a Valyrian steel link, and if he had one, I think Jon would have noted it. I think that lighting the glass candle has something to do with earning your Valyrian link, but of course, I have no proof, only some text hints and some speculations.

So, I don't think this is the first time that the candles have been lit at the Citadel since the dragon's died. We know that Marwin's glass candle is burning, but we are not told if it was recently lit or not. I think it's been burning for some years.

Urrathon Night Walker's glass candle hadn't burned for a hundred years but is now burning in Qarth. It implies to us that the all of the glass candles have just started to ignite, but I think some have been lit well before out story starts. The Citadel is mysterious. We know that Aemon "wasted his life at the wall", and he was an exceptionally gifted Maester. Perhaps Luwin was sent to Winterfell for some reason? Now, is it to plant him there to do the Citadel's bidding, or because they wanted him to be hidden and wasted. Something happened to Luwin to make him lose faith in magic, but he had that faith at one time, or he would not have studied the Higher Mysteries. I can't tell if Luwin was sent to WF as a plant for the citadel, or as a punishment! Perhaps it could be both?

I admit this is certain taking a few leaps, but if only certain blood can light the glass candle AND (leap again) the glass candle is lit as part of earning your Valyrian steel link, then Luwin has some thing special about him. And at his death, he crawled to the heart tree at Winterfell, and his last blood was shed there. If Osha hadn't done the deed, he still would have bleed there and died there. A man who doesn't believe in magic would not seek the heart tree at the end of his life, I don't think. Luwin perhaps has special blood; special blood that lite a glass candle, special blood that went into the heart tree at Wintefell.

Anyway, that was my very long winded (sorry about that) reason why I don't think that all of the glass candles have been recently lit. I think some have been burning for a while, and I also wonder if the candles are a bit like a two-way mirror, but the candle from one side of the mirror can ignite the other candle/side of the mirror when directed by someone with power. Like Marwyn, perhaps.



We are told in the text that many acolytes cut their fingers on the glass candles, and still spend the night in darkness with bleeding fingers. It's not just any blood that can light them, but certain blood, perhaps? I just don't think it was an accident by a random acolyte. We are told that several people try this each year.


So people try every year, and they fail. Bloody hands, in darkness, waiting for the dawn. For those that fail. Again, I think if you don't fail, you get your Valyrian link. This quote links the study of the higher mysteries (and a Valyrian steel link) to the glass candles and lighting them.

Certain blood can light the candles, certain blood and certain studies. We don't know how long Luwin has been a Maester, only that he traveled with Catelyn to Winterfell, which means he has been their around 14 years. How long has Marwyn's candle been burning? I think it's all related.

As to the dragons being woke from stone, for some reason, I just think is relates to something besides obsidian and glass candles, although I can't really explain why. I certainly think a if a dragon's fire is hot enough to melt stone, as we see of Balerion at Harrenhal, then perhaps a dragon's fire could indeed ignite obsidian and keep it burning along a wall of fire, at least for the duration of a night. And then be relighted each day before nightfall to keep the demon's at bay.

Maybe it can't be ended forever! I have wondered if this is part of the circle of life/wheel of time mentality. Cycles that repeat and repeat and repeat.

I have some speculation that the Long Night and now are not the only times the Other's have pushed south. I actually question that each time a wildling army has invaded from north of the wall, that they are actually fleeing south for a purpose, much as we see in our current story. Mance is gathering the people north of the wall, organizing them as best as possible, calling himself king, and they are marching south. Their goal seems to be to get away from the Other's. I think these kings and invasions that we hear of, Gendel and Gorne, Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Joramun, have all united their people in times of need. The same need that is driving the wildlings of our current story to drive south.

The questions is, are the Other's hunting people, or are they driving them south to protect them? Lot's of speculation, of course.


Sure. Glad to help.


So the question then becomes why did Ned's blood do this to the sword? What is in his blood that changed the alloy of the steel? Or was it a combination of the spells already woven into the metal as well as the new spells that Tobho Mott used? So many questions about this.




Well, the way GRRM twists and turns things, it's hard to say if he really means "stone". It's worth questioning almost everything, and it's possible obsidian is what is meant. Sometimes I have wondered if this will have something to do with a bastard named Stone. Doubtful, but it plays in my mind as possible.


In the past, Thoros has mimicked this with wild fire and cheap blades, but eventually the wild fire burned out and the blade was destroyed. Beric does this after he has received the kiss of fire, using his own blood, it seems, but I don't know if we are told what effect this has on his blade. Now, a blade such as Valyrian steel is certainly a superior weapon, and the fire of blood might cause it to burn and burn. If this is what GRRM has intended, we will see it, I think. I am just not sure it's Jon.


This dream seems to hint and ice and fire as part of Jon's weaponry, but I am not so sure about that. Black ice seems to indicate night and winter and ice, while the blade that burned red seems to indicate fire. But I don't think this is a flaming sword, although that is the most common interpretation, and well loved, which fit's the idea of Azor Ahai. But ...

We are told in the prologue of Game, but Gerad, who knows a thing or two, that "It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold." So the cold burns, and the implication is that it burns more than fire. We also have the weapon Ice, which we have just discussed has been reforged and changed, but is still Ice. Or at least part of Ice and part of Ned. And those two blades that were formed from Ice, are both red and dark grey ripples upon ripples, and described as "waves of night and blood" and "ripples of blood and night". I think any light hitting either of these blades might make them appear to "burn" or have fire racing on them. We even see this with Hugh of the Vales armor after his death at the Hand's Tourney, "a bright streak of fire ran down his outstretched arm, as the steel caught the light." Hugh's armor doesn't seem special, but light can make it appear to appear like streaking fire.

This blade is made of Ice but the color might appear to burn red. The only thing that keeps me from being 100% on this being one of the swords that Jon is using in this dream is that he clearly describes his sword as Longclaw. Unless Ned's sword is reforged and Longclaw's hilt is used. But that's very much just a guess, and honestly, if such a reforging happens, I think there is a different hilt for that sword.

So, I am not sure that we actually need to have a flaming sword, as we see with Thoros or Beric. Those might be imitations of something else, something better, but that Thoros and Beric are incapable of wielding. Ice that is both night and red!





Thanks. As much is GRRM is not an elitist, he does seem to be telling us that some blood is important. I don't think that blood needs to be related to wealth or power, but something in the blood calls out. Almost like the Targaryen blood and their dragonseed bastard dragon riders. There is something in the blood line that gives a special gift or power.

And perhaps Luwin has this in his blood, IF part of earning his Valyrian steel link is related to lighting a glass candle. I can speculate endlessly on what blood this might be. For a while, I thought he could be of Stark blood, just because of his grey eyes. But other people in this story have grey eyes who are not related to the Stark's that we know of, such as the Hound and Stevron Frey and Mandon Moore and Qhorin Halfhand and Styr, Magnor of Thenn, to name a few. So, it's possible they share some Stark blood in the past, but it's also possible that his is perhaps a First Men trait.

The other blood line I think might be very important, and is hidden a bit, is the blood of Garth the Green, or Garth Greenhand. Now, the Stark's might carry some of this blood if the histories are correct about Brandon the Builder being either a son or grandson of Garth Greenhand via Brandon of the Bloody Blade. I think Marwyin the Mage can probably trace his blood back to Garth Greenhand, too, and I think it might be in the Gardner line. I think the Florent blood is important, and when Mel burned Alester Florent at Dragonstone, the reason that they were gifted with strong winds to carry them north was because Alester had "kings blood", blood from Garth via Florys the Fox via all the Florent ancesters that came before Alester. Now, perhaps she didn't really burn him, but I don't see much reason to doubt. Although we do see her using glamours with Mance and Rattleshirt and it's possible she did such a thing with Alester and they just got lucky with the wind.


Well, I am not sold on what is bringing magic back into the world. In the prologue, we meet the Other's first, so their magic/power is already on the rise, but perhaps their magic is always the same, it's only their proximity to the wall that changes. The next bit of magic we get is the direwolf pups, and that is magic, I have no doubt, and I think they might be more important than the dragons. GRRM never initially intended to have real dragons in his story (he only added them at the suggestion of a friend), but he always intended for the direwolves. The Bran I chapter came to him first, and the direwolves play a huge roll in that.

As to Craster, I would speculate he has been giving his sons to the other's for several generations. Since he was old enough to beget sons, he has been at this sacrifice game. Hard to say how old Craster is, but this has been going on for a while. His first wives were probably his own sisters, and his first wife might have been his own mother. As a matter of fact, if his mother was his first wife, or if she had anything to do with his sacrifices, I would say that this line of sacrifice is maternal driven. After all, we don't hear about Craster's wives leaving him, and they certainly could run away. Something keeps them there, until we see Gilly. Something about this baby boy she carried seemed important enough that Gilly and Craster's other wives plotted her escape. I haven't even begun to work it all out yet, but after Craster is dead, Gilly and her son are the only ones to flee. The rest seem to stay, and put up with the sexual advances of the Night's Watch mutineer's. The appendix for AFFC lists several of the Night's Watch members still at Craster's keep, and there is no reason to think they are not begetting children on these women left behind. Three of Craster's wives are also named in the appendix, and there is no reason to think they have left Craster's Keep. I see no reason to think that Gilly's son might not eventually end up back at Craster's Keep in Craster's roll, the last son of Craster fathering sons and daughters in his father's role. Craster and his children carry "black blood" and that seems important to the sacrifices.

Now, the comet might bring the magic, but in my head, if I look at the comet merely as a astronomical happening, it should not alter magic in the world. But this is science fiction, so I can't look just at science. People give the birth of dragon's credit for bringing magic back to the world, but that can't be, because magic already had come back to the world, magic that Dany needed to use to hatch her eggs. So, I don't think it's the dragons that brought the magic.

It could be blood. I think of all the blood shed and how magic has grown with the blood shed. The War of Five Kings shed a lot of blood, and Westeros drank it up. Dany's march across slaver's bay shed a lot of blood, and Essos drank it up. The comet is seen after Ned's death. Did Ned's blood bring the comet? I do think Ned's death was part of a needed sacrifice for Dany to hatch her eggs, but I can't prove that. But what initially caused the Other's to move south? I don't know, but they certainly operate with some kind of magic power. So, it becomes the chicken or the egg arguement, which came first. I don't know, but I do think that the shedding of blood made the magic grow!


If you haven't noticed, I LOVE tinfoil, so I am always happy to hear those types of ideas. 

I agree that there are probably more dragons. After all, we get rumors of sightings of ice dragons over the Shivering Sea, and I think Summer saw a dragon over Winterfell as it burned. I think there is one more important dragon in this story. We also have rumors that a couple of the Targaryen dragons might have survived. Cannibal is one, and Silverwing is another that was not seen again. Neither of these are confirmed dead, and they would be big by now, I would think. My gut tells me it will be an ice dragon, or a dragon associated with ice. Perhaps that is just what I want to see happen! 

As to Asshai and the dragon's stirring under the sunrise, well ... perhaps. After all, asshai is noted for dragons and dragon people long before the world associated the Targaryen's with this type of magic. I have seen theories that what Bran saw was the past, a vision of Dany's eggs when they were first laid in a clutch, long before they became stone. If this dream is through the weirnet, he could be seeing time as past, present and future. It's possible but I am not sold. Stirring does indicate to be something new or fresh, so I think whatever Bran saw in his vision was young or new. "Stirred beneath the sunrise", both stirring and sunrise hint as something new, young or fresh, at least that is how I interpret that.

In GRRM's story, The Way of Cross and Dragon, there are four dragons noted to be in that story, and since I have read that years ago, I have expected a fourth dragon. Now, might it be an ice dragon, an old fire dragon, a sea dragon, I have no idea, but I expect something. An ice dragon fit's both Bran and Jon's imagery, and also the black pool in the godswood hint's at an ice dragon, at least that one might have died there (based on GRRM's childrens story The Ice Dragon, which he denies is in the same world as ASOIAF).

I am not even sure that the "dragons" that Bran see's stirring in Asshai are actually dragons. GRRM is tricky, and he often uses sigils to describe people (wolves, lions, krakens, dragons, bears, falcons, etc) so perhaps what Bran seen' stirring in the east was a person or people he associates with dragons. Not sold on this thought, but I have considered it.



So, I touched on this a bit above, and while I would like it to be Stark blood, I am not sure that Luwin has this, and I think it needs to be more specific than First Men blood. So, my gut tells me it is the blood of Garth the Green. We have multiple family options for this, and the World Book tells us the families that Garth's children are associated with. What is interesting to me is that the majority of these families are in the reach. Only the Stark's, through Brandon of the Bloody Blade, are really outside of the reach. Another option is Lann the Clever, who in some stories is associated as a grandchild of Garth Greenhand's, and of course the Lannister's call the Westerlands home. This idea of Stark and Lannister blood being important, not just in the civil war that divided the kingdom, but perhaps in special blood is really tempting.

I am going out on a limb and saying in this case, for Westeros, the blood of the Targaryen's is not important. They have only been on the continent for several hundred years. I know sometimes there is a connection made between the Valyrian's and the First Men, but I am not convinced. Maybe, but maybe not. But we know at least one Targaryen who could not light the glass candles at the citadel, and that is Aemon Targryen. Sam tells us that Aemon dreams of this and talks of this, and also unhatched dragons. That is why it's easy for me to think that perhaps the blood that Dany carries that helped her hatch those dragons isn't just Targaryen blood, or perhaps isn't Targaryen blood at all.

Marwyn the Mage has a glass candle burning in his chambers, but we don't know for how long it's been burning. I suspect that Marwyn carries the blood of Garth Greenhand, somehow, from some descent of Garth's seed. His description of hair growing from his nose and eyes is a clear nod to the pagan/wiccan idea of The Green Man, which Garth the Green seems a clear nod too. The Green Man, The Horned God, whatever you want to call him. That is the important blood, I think. I am guessing he comes from House Gardener, which would indicate that House isn't entirely extinct.

I think Luwin lit a glass candle. But Luwin seems to feel that magic is dead, even though he earned his Valyrian steel link. Does he not remember lighting the glass candle, like in a memory wipe? The citidel could be very untrustworthy. Is his denial of magic only a ploy? He does keep obsidian in his chambers, a whole jar of it. Why? He studies the heavens, looking for something. We have discussed that at the end of his life, he sought the heart tree in the godswood, and that is the old gods, the gods of Westeros long before man invaded the lands of the giants and the children. Whether Luwin always believed in magic, or he did, then didn't and only regained that belief near the end of his life, I can't be sure. Luwin is a very complicated man, and I hope that we will learn more about him, even though he is dead and his blood has gone to the weirnet.

And even more important than dragon fire in this story might be the fire that is burning at the top of the Hightower in Oldtown. Perhaps that could be a remnant of the fires that perhaps burned at your wall of fire in Essos? What keeps that fire burning, year after year after year? Perhaps it is obsidian? Maybe it's just boring old whale oil, but I doubt it. That fire is important!