Post by markg171 on Aug 8, 2015 9:32:13 GMT
Ser Jorah Mormont, exiled knight and former Lord of Bear Island
Seems to for some reason know a decent amount about Rhaegar
But the only time that we can actually place them together is at the Trident
Of which Jorah wasn't even on Rhaegar's side, despite the fact that as Lord of Bear Island he could have not answered Ned's summons/stayed loyal to the crown and thereby Rhaegar
And possibly Harrenhal
Meera says that Howland ate and drank with Stark bannermen that included those whose sigil is a bear and that's House Mormont. Given that Mormont men were there it seems likely that Jorah was as well as he was either heir to House Mormont or Lord of House Mormont by this point and would have accompanied his men most likely. But the fact that Mormont men were present when Rhaegar sang at least suggests that he was there and fits with how he knows what Rhaegar's harp looked like as Rhaegar likely had it when he sang at Harrenhal.
But other than that it seems like Jorah probably never saw him at any other tourney as the only times we have Rhaegar at a tourney is Storm's End, Lannisport, and Harrenhal.
Storm's End is kind of far for Jorah of Bear Island to be attending, and the Lannisport tourney seems to have only been Westerland men so doesn't seem like Jorah would have been there either. Besides those problems though Jorah tells us explicitly that he himself was not a tourney knight.
And given that it's a northern view that tourneys are a waste
It seems unlikely that Jorah would have been to many tourneys, let alone the ones where Rhaegar was.
But we know that Jorah did eventually become a tourney knight… after Rhaegar’s death. He started doing lots of tourneys after the Greyjoy Rebellion while he tried to continue to impress Lynesse
Which is actually a very important point that Jorah only became a tourney knight after Rhaegar had been dead for years.
As this quote shows, Jorah knew Barristan and specifically mentions having seen him in tourneys. He says he only saw Barristan a dozen times in his life. If we take it that he was indeed at Harrenhal, there's 1 sighting, possibly more given that he could have seen Barristan many times over the 10 days (we'll conservatively say 2 sightings though as he would have at least seen him in the tourney and while Jaime was invested as Barristan was at both). He would have seen him at the Trident. There's 2 or 3 sightings. Barristan partook in the Greyjoy Rebellion like Jorah did. So there's 3 or 4 sightings. Robert Baratheon knighted Jorah and Jorah was anointed by the High Septon so it stands to reason that Jorah was knighted in King’s Landing. There’s 4 or 5 sightings. No reason not to think that Barristan didn’t partake in the celebration at Lannisport for the victory over the Greyjoys like Jorah did. There's 5 or 6 sightings already accounted for.
There is a point to this Barristan part though. We already have accounted for half of the times Jorah saw Barristan in his life without even knowing the amount of tournaments that Jorah entered over the 4 year span of his marriage to Lynesse that he would have seen Barristan at. Which stands to reason that we have accounted for every single time that Jorah saw Barristan prior to meeting him again in Essos… and only 2 of those times occurred during Rhaegar’s life. And they happen to be the exact same two times that Jorah would have seen Rhaegar: Harrenhal and the Trident. The amount of times Jorah has seen Barristan fits perfectly with the amount of times he’s seen Rhaegar, so it stands to reason that Harrenhal and the Trident were indeed the only two times that Jorah saw Rhaegar.
And Rhaegar seems to have never gone north as the only Targaryens who ever seemingly did were Queen Alysanne, King Jaehaerys I, Maester Aemon, Bloodraven, Aegon the Conqueror, Aegon V, Prince Jacaerys, and possibly Aemon the Dragonknight as far as I can tell. AKA we have a pretty good idea of when Targaryens visited the north and Rhaegar wasn't one of them. So Jorah wouldn't have seem him there.
And while Rickard Stark made a trip south to King's Landing in 264
Rhaegar would have only been 5 years old, and Jorah probably wasn't even invited as his father would have been lord of Bear Island and the one Rickard would take, if he took anybody at all.
So given all of this, it seems strange to me that Jorah seems to have known Rhaegar
"Do you remember Ser Jorah Mormont?"
"Would that I might forget him," Ned said bluntly. The Mormonts of Bear Island were an old house, proud and honorable, but their lands were cold and distant and poor. Ser Jorah had tried to swell the family coffers by selling some poachers to a Tyroshi slaver. As the Mormonts were bannermen to the Starks, his crime had dishonored the north. Ned had made the long journey west to Bear Island, only to find when he arrived that Jorah had taken ship beyond the reach of Ice and the king's justice. Five years had passed since then.
"Would that I might forget him," Ned said bluntly. The Mormonts of Bear Island were an old house, proud and honorable, but their lands were cold and distant and poor. Ser Jorah had tried to swell the family coffers by selling some poachers to a Tyroshi slaver. As the Mormonts were bannermen to the Starks, his crime had dishonored the north. Ned had made the long journey west to Bear Island, only to find when he arrived that Jorah had taken ship beyond the reach of Ice and the king's justice. Five years had passed since then.
Ser Jorah snorted. "Can you wake the dead, girl? Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, and he died on the Trident. Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake."
Dany could not let it go. "His is the song of ice and fire, my brother said. I'm certain it was my brother. Not Viserys, Rhaegar. He had a harp with silver strings."
Ser Jorah's frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. "Prince Rhaegar played such a harp," he conceded. "You saw him?"
Ser Jorah's frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. "Prince Rhaegar played such a harp," he conceded. "You saw him?"
“I will not have her harmed,” Dany said. “I claim her. Do as I command you, or Khal Drogo will know the reason why.”
“Ai, Khaleesi,” Jhogo replied, kicking his horse. Quaro and the others followed his lead, the bells in their hair chiming.
“Go with them,” she commanded Ser Jorah.
“As you command.” The knight gave her a curious look. “You are your brother’s sister, in truth.”
“Viserys?” She did not understand.
“No,” he answered. “Rhaegar.” He galloped off.
“Ai, Khaleesi,” Jhogo replied, kicking his horse. Quaro and the others followed his lead, the bells in their hair chiming.
“Go with them,” she commanded Ser Jorah.
“As you command.” The knight gave her a curious look. “You are your brother’s sister, in truth.”
“Viserys?” She did not understand.
“No,” he answered. “Rhaegar.” He galloped off.
"Tell me, then—when he touched a man on the shoulder with his sword, what did he say? 'Go forth and kill the weak'? Or 'Go forth and defend them'? At the Trident, those brave men Viserys spoke of who died beneath our dragon banners—did they give their lives because they believed in Rhaegar's cause, or because they had been bought and paid for?" Dany turned to Mormont, crossed her arms, and waited for an answer.
"My queen," the big man said slowly, "all you say is true.
"My queen," the big man said slowly, "all you say is true.
"It was said that no man ever knew Prince Rhaegar, truly. I had the privilege of seeing him in tourney, though, and often heard him play his harp with its silver strings."
Ser Jorah snorted. "Along with a thousand others at some harvest feast. Next you'll claim you squired for him."
Ser Jorah snorted. "Along with a thousand others at some harvest feast. Next you'll claim you squired for him."
Dany shrugged him off . “Viserys would have bought as many Unsullied as he had the coin for. But you once said I was like Rhaegar...
“I remember, Daenerys.”
“Your Grace,” she corrected. “Prince Rhaegar led free men into battle, not slaves. Whitebeard said he dubbed his squires himself, and made many other knights as well.”
“There was no higher honor than to receive your knighthood from the Prince of Dragonstone.”
“I remember, Daenerys.”
“Your Grace,” she corrected. “Prince Rhaegar led free men into battle, not slaves. Whitebeard said he dubbed his squires himself, and made many other knights as well.”
“There was no higher honor than to receive your knighthood from the Prince of Dragonstone.”
Rhaegar lost on the Trident. He lost the battle, he lost the war, he lost the kingdom, and he lost his life. His blood swirled downriver with the rubies from his breastplate, and Robert the Usurper rode over his corpse to steal the Iron Throne. Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."
"It may be that I must die a traitor's death," Ser Barristan said. "If so, I should not die alone. Before I took Robert's pardon I fought against him on the Trident. You were on the other side of that battle, Mormont, were you not?"
And possibly Harrenhal
"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.
Meera says that Howland ate and drank with Stark bannermen that included those whose sigil is a bear and that's House Mormont. Given that Mormont men were there it seems likely that Jorah was as well as he was either heir to House Mormont or Lord of House Mormont by this point and would have accompanied his men most likely. But the fact that Mormont men were present when Rhaegar sang at least suggests that he was there and fits with how he knows what Rhaegar's harp looked like as Rhaegar likely had it when he sang at Harrenhal.
But other than that it seems like Jorah probably never saw him at any other tourney as the only times we have Rhaegar at a tourney is Storm's End, Lannisport, and Harrenhal.
"When he was young, His Grace rode brilliantly in a tourney at Storm's End, defeating Lord Steffon Baratheon, Lord Jason Mallister, the Red Viper of Dorne, and a mystery knight who proved to be the infamous Simon Toyne, chief of the kingswood outlaws. He broke twelve lances against Ser Arthur Dayne that day."
She was ten when she finally saw her prince in the flesh, at the tourney her lord father had thrown to welcome King Aerys to the west. Viewing stands had been raised beneath the walls of Lannisport, and the cheers of the smallfolk had echoed off Casterly Rock like rolling thunder. They cheered Father twice as loudly as they cheered the king, the queen recalled, but only half as loudly as they cheered Prince Rhaegar.
Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists. Long streamers of red and gold and orange silk had floated behind his helm, like flames. Two of her uncles fell before his lance, along with a dozen of her father's finest jousters, the flower of the west.
Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists. Long streamers of red and gold and orange silk had floated behind his helm, like flames. Two of her uncles fell before his lance, along with a dozen of her father's finest jousters, the flower of the west.
Storm's End is kind of far for Jorah of Bear Island to be attending, and the Lannisport tourney seems to have only been Westerland men so doesn't seem like Jorah would have been there either. Besides those problems though Jorah tells us explicitly that he himself was not a tourney knight.
I fight as well as any man, Khaleesi, but I have never been a tourney knight.
"The gods frown on the gambler," Ser Rodrik said sternly. He was of the north, and shared the Stark views on tournaments.
But we know that Jorah did eventually become a tourney knight… after Rhaegar’s death. He started doing lots of tourneys after the Greyjoy Rebellion while he tried to continue to impress Lynesse
It was as a tourney champion that I had won her hand and heart, so I entered other tourneys for her sake, but the magic was gone. I never distinguished myself again, and each defeat meant the loss of another charger and another suit of jousting armor, which must needs be ransomed or replaced. The cost could not be borne.
Ser Jorah flushed red. "Mero shaved his beard, but you grew one, didn't you? No wonder you looked so bloody familiar . . ."
"You know him?" Dany asked the exile knight, lost.
"I saw him perhaps a dozen times . . . from afar most often, standing with his brothers or riding in some tourney. But every man in the Seven Kingdoms knew Barristan the Bold." He laid the point of his sword against the old man's neck. "Khaleesi, before you kneels Ser Barristan Selmy, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, who betrayed your House to serve the Usurper Robert Baratheon."
"You know him?" Dany asked the exile knight, lost.
"I saw him perhaps a dozen times . . . from afar most often, standing with his brothers or riding in some tourney. But every man in the Seven Kingdoms knew Barristan the Bold." He laid the point of his sword against the old man's neck. "Khaleesi, before you kneels Ser Barristan Selmy, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, who betrayed your House to serve the Usurper Robert Baratheon."
There is a point to this Barristan part though. We already have accounted for half of the times Jorah saw Barristan in his life without even knowing the amount of tournaments that Jorah entered over the 4 year span of his marriage to Lynesse that he would have seen Barristan at. Which stands to reason that we have accounted for every single time that Jorah saw Barristan prior to meeting him again in Essos… and only 2 of those times occurred during Rhaegar’s life. And they happen to be the exact same two times that Jorah would have seen Rhaegar: Harrenhal and the Trident. The amount of times Jorah has seen Barristan fits perfectly with the amount of times he’s seen Rhaegar, so it stands to reason that Harrenhal and the Trident were indeed the only two times that Jorah saw Rhaegar.
And Rhaegar seems to have never gone north as the only Targaryens who ever seemingly did were Queen Alysanne, King Jaehaerys I, Maester Aemon, Bloodraven, Aegon the Conqueror, Aegon V, Prince Jacaerys, and possibly Aemon the Dragonknight as far as I can tell. AKA we have a pretty good idea of when Targaryens visited the north and Rhaegar wasn't one of them. So Jorah wouldn't have seem him there.
And while Rickard Stark made a trip south to King's Landing in 264
In 264 AC, a visit to King's Landing by Lord Rickard Stark of Winterfell awakened his interest in the North, and he hatched a plan to build a new Wall a hundred leagues north of the existing one and claim all the lands between.
So given all of this, it seems strange to me that Jorah seems to have known Rhaegar
