A knight from House Blount (porcupine) is from the Crownlands.
I don't have a lot of time right now, so I'll need to come back to comment more on this later, but before I forget. I know at least Robert in the books and possibly Littlefinger, though I can't remember if that's show or books both comment to Ned that he is so prickly he ought to take a hedgehog as his sigil. Does that tie into the porcupine at all?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
One thing I noticed too on this front recently is that Benjen also hates the Lannisters
He had rather less sympathy for the uncle. Benjen Stark seemed to share his brother’s distaste for Lannisters, and he had not been pleased when Tyrion had told him of his intentions. “I warn you, Lannister, you’ll find no inns at the Wall,” he had said, looking down on him.
“No doubt you’ll find some place to put me,” Tyrion had replied. “As you might have noticed, I’m small.”
One did not say no to the queen’s brother, of course, so that had settled the matter, but Stark had not been happy. “You will not like the ride, I promise you that,” he’d said curtly, and since the moment they set out, he had done all he could to live up to that promise.
By the end of the first week, Tyrion’s thighs were raw from hard riding, his legs were cramping badly, and he was chilled to the bone. He did not complain. He was damned if he would give Benjen Stark that satisfaction.
He took a small revenge in the matter of his riding fur, a tattered bearskin, old and musty-smelling. Stark had offered it to him in an excess of Night’s Watch gallantry, no doubt expecting him to graciously decline. Tyrion had accepted with a smile. He had brought his warmest clothing with him when they rode out of Winterfell, and soon discovered that it was nowhere near warm enough. It was cold up here, and growing colder. The nights were well below freezing now, and when the wind blew it was like a knife cutting right through his warmest woolens. By now Stark was no doubt regretting his chivalrous impulse. Perhaps he had learned a lesson. The Lannisters never declined, graciously or otherwise. The Lannisters took what was offered.
As far as we know, Benjen has had absolutely no dealings whatsoever with the Lannisters in his lifetime before he comes to Winterfell to see Robert and meets Robert's in-laws. Yet he seems to hate all Lannisters, and goes out of his way to be a dick to Tyrion. Why?
Ned has reasons to dislike the Lannisters because he's had personal dealings with them. He walked in on Tywin sacking King's Landing in Robert's name, saw Tywin present Rhaegar's kids as tokens of fealty, saw Jaime kill the king he was sworn to defend and seat himself on his throne, has seen Cersei's a bitch, etc. Benjen has done none of this. At best he's only ever heard of this. He has no real reason to dislike the Lannisters just like Eddard does, and to make Tyrion's life a hell because he happens to be a Lannister. Which is odd in itself because Tyrion is the one Lannister that Ned seems okay with. Tyrion even has incredibly rare books on this trip with Benjen that he specifically was allowed to borrow from Eddard. Benjen's got physical proof in those rare books that Eddard doesn't seem to treat him like other Lannisters or hate him... yet Benjen's a dick to him anyways.
I find Eddard's hatred of the Lannisters odd, but still kinda understandable given everything he's seen. I don't understand Benjen's hatred of Lannisters at all however unless we're missing something, or they were all just incredible dicks to him while he was in Winterfell and it's a new and personal hatred.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I don't have a lot of time right now, so I'll need to come back to comment more on this later, but before I forget. I know at least Robert in the books and possibly Littlefinger, though I can't remember if that's show or books both comment to Ned that he is so prickly he ought to take a hedgehog as his sigil. Does that tie into the porcupine at all?
Not sure--are you thinking it's a tie in to the Blounts? Or a potential hint that Ned defeated Blount and the other two?
One way or another, Blount's being in the Kingsguard makes no sense. And his being re-instated after giving Tommen up without a fight.
And, just as Maester Sam noted that the Ashara's dancing partners are specifically delineated for a reason, seems like the knights defeated by Knight of the Laughing Tree are delineated for a reason. The Freys and Haighs can be written off as opportunistic. But Blount? Boros is the ONLY Blount mentioned. In ALL of the books, not just the novels.
And he's reinstated to the Kingsguard by Tywin after giving Tommen up. Something's up.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I find Eddard's hatred of the Lannisters odd, but still kinda understandable given everything he's seen. I don't understand Benjen's hatred of Lannisters at all however unless we're missing something, or they were all just incredible dicks to him while he was in Winterfell and it's a new and personal hatred.
I hadn't thought of this, but you are right. Benjen's hatred of Tyrion makes little sense. The idea that Ned and Benjen know something about the Lannisters specifically has to be considered.
And, given how Tywin and Rhaegar both sat out the war until the opportune moment (as do the Freys), but Ned is much less angry towards Rhaegar, the idea that he blames the Lannisters for something to do with Lyanna has to be on the table.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I wouldn't really say this. I've never had any problem with Blount being a KG.
We know from Jaime that Boros is an adequate fighter despite being a fat coward nowadays
Jaime had served with Meryn Trant and Boros Blount for years; adequate fighters, but Trant was sly and cruel, and Blount a bag of growly air. Ser Balon Swann was better suited to his cloak, and of course the Knight of Flowers was supposedly all a knight should be. The fifth man was a stranger to him, this Osmund Kettleblack.
So he's good with a sword.
And if we take it that Boros was the porcupine knight from the KOTLT story (given that he's the only Blount we've ever even heard of), then we also know that Boros is really good with a lance as the porcupine knight was a champion for 2 days in the greatest tourney ever held
"As my prince commands. The daughter of the castle was the queen of love and beauty, with four brothers and an uncle to defend her, but all four sons of Harrenhal were defeated on the first day. Their conquerors reigned briefly as champions, until they were vanquished in turn. As it happened, the end of the first day saw the porcupine knight win a place among the champions, and on the morning of the second day the pitchfork knight and the knight of the two towers were victorious as well. But late on the afternoon of that second day, as the shadows grew long, a mystery knight appeared in the lists."
And the idea that Boros was a really good jouster is further supported by the fact that Jorah names him as his biggest win at the Lannisport Tourney other than his victory over Jaime, and Jorah beat big name jousters like Bronze Yohn and Jason Mallister
"I fight as well as any man, Khaleesi, but I have never been a tourney knight. Yet with Lynesse's favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion's laurel. I crowned Lynesse queen of love and beauty, and that very night went to her father and asked for her hand. I was drunk, as much on glory as on wine. By rights I should have gotten a contemptuous refusal, but Lord Leyton accepted my offer. We were married there in Lannisport, and for a fortnight I was the happiest man in the wide world."
Moreover Jorah seems to be listing them in sequential order, which would mean that Boros had made it all the way to the semi-finals of that tourney. So Boros is a really good jouster.
So let's go back in time and find ourselves in Robert's shoes in 283. He's got 5 open KG positions he needs to fill. Boros is a good fighter, who's a great tourney knight too. It's really not that surprising that he gets his KG position. Sure there's better knights in the realm, but Boros is in the higher echelon. And he happens to be from the Crownlands, one of the few regions that Robert is lacking support from. So maybe he also got picked for some political reasons too.
So I have no trouble seeing how Boros got picked for the KG. What I do see however is that Boros has now been in the KG for 17 years since that day. Oswell estimates Boros is somewhere in his 40's or 50's in 300AC. Boros is therefore an older knight. He's not in his prime anymore. The skills that once won him a white cloak, probably aren't really there anymore (especially once Jaime forbids him from training). Remember, Harrenhal happened 19 years ago. Lannisport 11 years ago. Robert's Rebellion was 17 years ago. These are not insignificant amounts of time for athletic primes. Not everybody is a Barristan Selmy able to retain their skills at age 62. Is it really a surprise that Blount should look so pathetic nowadays? Not at all. It'd be more unrealistic if he still was a good fighter who jousts superbly now that he's in his 50's.
It's really the same problem with all of Robert's KG. Fans everywhere deride Robert's KG, but don't consider the fact that they've held their posts so long. A king's KG stays sharp by having threats that kill them off. The bad KG die and get replaced by new great knights. Robert had basically 15 years of peace. Apparently 1 KG died in the Greyjoy Rebellion as Arys Oakheart says he'd been a KG for a decade, but that means that basically all his other KG have probably been serving since Robert first became king. If you assume they were picked in their prime, then they're now 15 years removed from it. They really should look unimpressive, that's the whole problem with KG's serving for life. They lose their edge and drive as the years go by.
That doesn't excuse the fact that Boros is a coward mind you. But Oswell really said it best
Boros the Belly? He's what, forty? Fifty? Half-drunk half the time, fat even when he's sober. If he ever had a taste for battle, he's lost it.
Since Boros was picked for the KG
- He aged 17 years and is now passed his middle years - He's become a drunk - He's gotten fat - He's lost his taste for battle
Now the above however, has nothing to do with how he earned his white cloak in the first place though. They're all stuff that happened to Boros as the years went by. Boros was suited for a white cloak back in 283. He's just not suited for one now that it's 300AC. But if you went through most king's KGs you'd find that to be the case for a lot of their older KG. Serving for life is a nice idea in principle, but it does mean that you're going to be stuck with these men and who they become as the years pass by if they don't get killed off.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Moreover Jorah seems to be listing them in sequential order, which would mean that Boros had made it all the way to the semi-finals of that tourney. So Boros is a really good jouster.
Agreed. But I still think something's up.
Martin takes the time to make sure readers know WHO the Knight of the Laughing Tree defeats. There's no reason to bother unless that matters. And House Blount has no other claim to fame except Boros--so, why bring him up?
- He aged 17 years and is now passed his middle years - He's become a drunk - He's gotten fat - He's lost his taste for battle
Now the above however, has nothing to do with how he earned his white cloak in the first place though. They're all stuff that happened to Boros as the years went by. Boros was suited for a white cloak back in 283. He's just not suited for one now that it's 300AC. But if you went through most king's KGs you'd find that to be the case for a lot of their older KG. Serving for life is a nice idea in principle, but it does mean that you're going to be stuck with these men and who they become as the years pass by if they don't get killed off.
But that's just it--they weren't stuck with Boros. Cersei has him stripped of his cloak for giving Tommen up without a fight.
He supposed he ought not complain. The appointment gave him another ear close to the king, unbeknownst to his sister. And even if Ser Osmund proved an utter craven, he would be no worse than Ser Boros Blount, currently residing in a dungeon at Rosby. Ser Boros had been escorting Tommen and Lord Gyles when Ser Jacelyn Bywater and his gold cloaks had surprised them, and had yielded up his charge with an alacrity that would have enraged old Ser Barristan Selmy as much as it did Cersei; a knight of the Kingsguard was supposed to die in defense of the king and royal family. His sister had insisted that Joffrey strip Blount of his white cloak on the grounds of treason and cowardice. And now she replaces him with another man just as hollow. Clash, Tyrion XI
So, Boros is out--another lackey is in. But Tywin of all people reinstates Boros after the Hound deserts. Tommen, Tywin's grandson, Joffrey's heir to the throne until Joffrey had a child (demon spawn), is given up to armed men without any fight by Boros, knight of the Kingsguard, and Tywin reinstates him? Why on earth, when there are plenty of other good fighters, younger men, who are willing to be Tywin's lickspittles?
ETA:
"Grand Maester Pycelle has always been a good friend to your House," Varys said sweetly. "Perhaps it will console you to learn that SerBorosBlountisalsobeingrestored." Cersei had stripped Ser Boros of his white cloak for failing to die in the defense of Prince Tommen when Bronn had seized the boy on the Rosby road. The man was no friend of Tyrion's, but after that he likely hated Cersei almost as much. I suppose that's something. "Blount is a blustering coward," he said amiably. "Is he? Oh dear. Still, the knights of the Kingsguard do serve for life, traditionally. Perhaps Ser Boros will prove braver in future. He willnodoubtremainveryloyal." "Tomyfather,"saidTyrionpointedly. Storm, Tyrion II
Something's up with Boros. And I think the three knights defeated by the Knight of the Laughing Tree are important in figuring out what happened in the war.
Last Edit: May 8, 2016 22:15:15 GMT by SlyWren: Evidence re: Tywin's wanting Boros back
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
ETA: One other thing re: Boros Blount, the porcupine Kingsguard: He gave Tommen up to Tyrion's men without a fight--that's why Cersei stripped him of his cloak.
But when Tywin cam e back and took over the Handship, Tywin reinstated Blount to replace the Hound. The craven who gave Tommen up without a fight. Why on earth do this? There HAD to be someone better. Unless Tywin knew Blount would do whatever he said. Because he had done so before--rather like Tywin keeps the Mountain around.
Great points all, but wow. This last one really seems to hit the nail on the head.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Great points all, but wow. This last one really seems to hit the nail on the head.
It would tie in with why Martin tells us the houses all three knights defeated by The Knight of the Laughing Tree.
Readers can dismiss the Freys' treachery as just Frey-ness. The Haighs' role as their closeness to the Freys--perhaps Frey-ness is contagious.
But Boros Blount, the porcupine knight, is clearly tied to Tywin. And he's the only named member of house of the third knight defeated by the KotLT. Something's up.
Which means something is likely up with the other two knights the KotLT defeated as well.
I think Martin might be telling who helped Tywin take Lyanna.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I don't understand Benjen's hatred of Lannisters at all however unless we're missing something, or they were all just incredible dicks to him while he was in Winterfell and it's a new and personal hatred.
Yup. I think part of it is that GRRM originally intended for Tyrion to do to Winterfell what Theon/Ramsay did to Winterfell, according to the 93 letter.
In order to set that up, and to seed a sense of Stark foresight/intuition, he had to have Ben hate Tyrion.
What is stranger to me, is that Jon doesn't. Tyrion is a significant part of Jon's very first POV chapter, and Jon doesn't hate him. Like, no hate at all.
Jon is the lone wolf in this regard. And Ghost, Lady, and Nymeria are the only wolves that never stalked Tyrion (and the latter two were never around him) as if he were an enemy.
When I was working on the RLJ theory for the bicentennial Heresy project that kingmonkey ended up penning in my stead, this was going to be one of arguments. I don't think it has been mentioned before in this regard. But I was thinking that if Jon is a Targ bastard, and Tyrion is a Targ bastard, this could explain why Jon alone has no hate for Tyrion. Tyrion even calls himself a bastard in his "father's" eyes. It makes sense if Jon is a Targ, but otherwise, it seems very odd that a boy "with more of the north" in him than his siblings would take to the Imp who might've sacked and burned Winterfell so kindly.
And, given how Tywin and Rhaegar both sat out the war until the opportune moment (as do the Freys), but Ned is much less angry towards Rhaegar, the idea that he blames the Lannisters for something to do with Lyanna has to be on the table.
I think this part can be explained if Tywin had been helping Rhaegar usurp his father. Ned would not have been in a position to identify the subtle difference between dishonorable treachery against Aerys and loyal service to Rhae.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I think this part can be explained if Tywin had been helping Rhaegar usurp his father. Ned would not have been in a position to identify the subtle difference between dishonorable treachery against Aerys and loyal service to Rhae.
Very possible. Still, Rhaegar's sitting out his family's war would be treachery, no? Especially if he's supposed to have caused said war. Unless Ned knows something else is up.
And voice, you are looking loverly. Blue is definitely your color. Though I would have thought you'd opt for red hair, brunette is . . . stunning.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Very possible. Still, Rhaegar's sitting out his family's war would be treachery, no? Especially if he's supposed to have caused said war. Unless Ned knows something else is up.
Treachery? Nah. Subversive, yes. Odd, yes. But not quite treacherous.
What was treacherous was the way he stole command of Aerys' kingsguard, then left his lionspaw there as his royal sire's crutch.
But Ned could not know all of that. I do think Ned learned that the abduction was a lie, though.
But Ned could not know all of that. I do think Ned learned that the abduction was a lie, though.
Yup. And that "lie" may be the mitigating factor in how Ned thinks of Rhaegar. If Rhaegar did something to help Lyanna, it may not make Rhaegar a hero to Ned. But it would likely make him less of a villain. Or at least less of a twit.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
All true. But I have trouble thinking Ned thought well of Rhaegar for not choosing a side much earlier.
If Ned harbored any grudge against Rhaegar for anything at all during Robert's Rebellion, I've yet to see it. Considering how prickly Ned is when it comes to actions that dishonor the North (Jorah) or constitute a betrayal of vows (Jaime), it seems Rhaegar did neither... at least from Ned's POV. Which of course I find veh-he-he-hery interesting.
Yup. And that "lie" may be the mitigating factor in how Ned thinks of Rhaegar. If Rhaegar did something to help Lyanna, it may not make Rhaegar a hero to Ned. But it would likely make him less of a villain. Or at least less of a twit.
Considering how much Ned benefited from RR (foster brother was crowned king, foster father was raised to hand) it is very strange that he regards Rhaegar so ambivalently. At times, his regards for Rhaegar are downright positive. That is hard to reconcile with the narrative of the rebellion. And, even harder to reconcile with Ned's Jorah & Lannister hatred. Rhaegar could not have broken vows (like Jaime), nor could he have dishonored the north (like Jorah), from Ned's POV. If Rhaegar had left Elia's bed for Lyanna's, that would have done both. Rhaegar would not only have been breaking his vows to his own wife, he would have dishonored the marriage contract between Ned's own sister and foster brother.
Call me crazy, but that seems far more personal and far more severe than Jorah selling some poachers, or Jaime being the one to kill the king when practically everyone wanted to kill the king.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
If Ned harbored any grudge against Rhaegar for anything at all during Robert's Rebellion, I've yet to see it. Considering how prickly Ned is when it comes to actions that dishonor the North (Jorah) or constitute a betrayal of vows (Jaime), it seems Rhaegar did neither... at least from Ned's POV. Which of course I find veh-he-he-hery interesting.
But he's also not particularly sorry about Rhaegar's death, either. The memory of dead Rhaegar in the stream doesn't seem to bother him.
Even goads Robert at one point about not fearing Rhaegar, so why does he fear Dany?
If Rhaegar had left Elia's bed for Lyanna's, that would have done both. Rhaegar would not only have been breaking his vows to his own wife, he would have dishonored the marriage contract between Ned's own sister and foster brother.
Call me crazy, but that seems far more personal and far more severe than Jorah selling some poachers, or Jaime being the one to kill the king when practically everyone wanted to kill the king.
Very true. Though he still doesn't regret Rhaegar's death. Which also points to his not seeing Rhaegar as a hero.
Nowhere near the anger he has at the Lannisters, but also nowhere near the regret over Arthur.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.