Why all of the Lannister Hate, Ned?

But he's also not particularly sorry about Rhaegar's death, either. The memory of dead Rhaegar in the stream doesn't seem to bother him.

Even goads Robert at one point about not fearing Rhaegar, so why does he fear Dany?

Nope, Rhaegar's death doesn't weigh incredibly heavy upon Ned. And as you say, neither does it fill him with any sense of relief or vengeance. It was war. And what did they go to war for if not to end the murder of children?

Rhaegar is only a faceless combatant to Ned in comparison to certain other faces which burn brightly. That being said, he does reflect that Rhaegar would have been a better king than Robert and is troubled by guilts in Eddard IX.

So, a bit of a wash.

Which is strange, no? Would you feel wishy-washy about a 23 year old married father of two who kidnapped your fourteen year old sister? How would you feel about him after you learned your sister had died in part due to the abduction?

Very true. Though he still doesn't regret Rhaegar's death. Which also points to his not seeing Rhaegar as a hero.

Mostly agree, but there is some regret in Eddard IX.

Nowhere near the anger he has at the Lannisters, but also nowhere near the regret over Arthur.

Which says it all, in my opinion. The Lannisters are oathbreakers, thus in Ned's book, their lives are forfeit and they will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile... so Rhaegar could not have been an oathbreaker.

Ned is filled with powerful regret when life experiences force him to recall Three People. And it is an interesting trio.

Lyanna
Arthur Dayne
Jon

Behold the Guilt Trifecta. LOL

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Why all of the Lannister Hate, Ned? May 21, 2016 19:31:28 GMT voice likes this

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Post by SlyWren on May 21, 2016 19:31:28 GMT

Which is strange, no? Would you feel wishy-washy about a 23 year old married father of two who kidnapped your fourteen year old sister? How would you feel about him after you learned your sister had died in part due to the abduction?

YUP!

Especially what we see re: how Stark maids feel about those who abduct them and even members of the abductors' family--Sansa and Arya have had it with most Lannisters. Sansa is less averse to Lancel and Kevan. But though Tyrion is kind and, if she thought about it, would never have executed Ned, she still does NOT want him.

Mostly agree, but there is some regret in Eddard IX.

Regret, yes. But Rhaegar-specifc regret? That seems less clear. Possible, though. No doubt.

Which says it all, in my opinion. The Lannisters are oathbreakers, thus in Ned's book, their lives are forfeit and they will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile... so Rhaegar could not have been an oathbreaker.

Or not one who preyed on the weak, at least. That seems to be something Ned really, really holds to. As well as marital vows. If Rhaegar did hold onto Lyanna for his own political purposes (which I think he did), that may explain some of Ned's lack of anger and lack of warmth. Rhaegar didn't hurt Lyanna but he held onto her. A mixed bag.

Ned is filled with powerful regret when life experiences force him to recall Three People. And it is an interesting trio.

Lyanna
Arthur Dayne
Jon

Behold the Guilt Trifecta. LOL

AMEN! And, though the show was much more explicit, we get that even in the tower fight scene. Arthur's the last thing Ned sees. The last one he speaks to, before the fight sets Lyanna screaming in his head. The guilt over Arthur and Lyanna are connected.

ETA: That said--if Ned fully knew of Tywin's potentially being connected to Lyanna's disappearance, seems like he might connect Lyanna to them.

He does have that moment where Cersei tells him of her wedding night. Then Ned thinks of blue roses and wants to weep. He's making connections there. But to the rest of them, especially to Tywin. . . I can't see anything.

Last Edit: May 21, 2016 19:33:27 GMT by SlyWren

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Why all of the Lannister Hate, Ned? May 22, 2016 5:47:37 GMT SlyWren likes this

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Post by voice on May 22, 2016 5:47:37 GMT

Especially what we see re: how Stark maids feel about those who abduct them and even members of the abductors' family--Sansa and Arya have had it with most Lannisters. Sansa is less averse to Lancel and Kevan. But though Tyrion is kind and, if she thought about it, would never have executed Ned, she still does NOT want him.

I can't say what I want to say, but wolfmaid7 can:

May 18, 2016 15:41:58 GMT wolfmaid7 said:

Exactly,the whole environment and atmosphere doesn't warrant a girl's punani dripping with anticipation.

LOL

Regret, yes. But Rhaegar-specifc regret? That seems less clear. Possible, though. No doubt.

I agree that most of Ned's old guilts in that chapter seem tied more to Jon and Lyanna. But most interestingly, there is one bit of regret that seem very Rhaegar-specific:

A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX

Littlefinger shrugged. Rivulets of moisture twisted down the back of his cloak. “Does it matter? If you bed enough women, some will give you presents, and His Grace has never been shy on that count. I know he’s acknowledged that boy at Storm’s End, the one he fathered the night Lord Stannis wed. He could hardly do otherwise. The mother was a Florent, niece to the Lady Selyse, one of her bedmaids. Renly says that Robert carried the girl upstairs during the feast, and broke in the wedding bed while Stannis and his bride were still dancing. Lord Stannis seemed to think that was a blot on the honor of his wife’s House, so when the boy was born, he shipped him off to Renly.” He gave Ned a sideways glance. “I’ve also heard whispers that Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock, three years ago when he went west for Lord Tywin’s tourney. Cersei had the babes killed, and sold the mother to a passing slaver. Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home.”

Ned Stark grimaced. Ugly tales like that were told of every great lord in the realm. He could believe it of Cersei Lannister readily enough... but would the king stand by and let it happen? The Robert he had known would not have, but the Robert he had known had never been so practiced at shutting his eyes to things he did not wish to see. “Why would Jon Arryn take a sudden interest in the king’s baseborn children?”

The short man gave a sodden shrug. “He was the King’s Hand. Doubtless Robert asked him to see that they were provided for.”

Ned was soaked through to the bone, and his soul had grown cold. "It had to be more than that, or why kill him?"

Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. "Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east."

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

I won't even mention that LF mentions Dawn, and that GRRM might be slipping in a clue with that quip. And I will not mention that Ned seems to contrast Rhaegar with Robert for the very reason that one was prone to thinking with his cock and siring bastards, and the other was not. No, I will not mention those things.

Instead, notice what makes Ned remember Rhaegar. "Allow a man like" Jon Arryn "to live..." ...whose murder Ned is of course investigating. Many fans read this passage and believe Ned has just connected Jon Snow and Rhaegar. And while that is reasonable, I think it is a bit off the mark. Ned is no longer thinking about Jon Snow. That happened a earlier (in connection to men filled with lusts).

Ned is in Detective Mode. Of course, Ned might be the worst detective in history (he is at this very moment seeking counsel from the murderer) but nonetheless, Ned is trying to draw come up with a motive for Jon Arryn's death.

Ned considers the actions and the character of "a man like" Jon Arryn.

"It had to be more than" seeing the bastards were provided for, "or why kill him?" Slowly, Ned's wheels are turning. Jon Arryn was not the type of man to frequent brothels... Jon Arryn, unlike Robert, was not famed for being a particularly virile man. Both Jon Arryn and Rhaegar Targaryen were effete nobles and known for being dutiful (rather than lecherous) husbands.

In searching for a parallel for the dutiful and dead Jon Arryn, Ned finds himself remembering another nobleman who was killed, one Rhaegar Targaryen.

While many readers find themselves imagining a Rhaegar Targaryen who was willing to abduct a 14 year old girl in order to have sex with her, Ned finds himself imagining a Rhaegar Targaryen who was like Jon Arryn.

Jon Arryn... and not Robert Baratheon, the frequenter of brothels.

Or not one who preyed on the weak, at least. That seems to be something Ned really, really holds to. As well as marital vows. If Rhaegar did hold onto Lyanna for his own political purposes (which I think he did), that may explain some of Ned's lack of anger and lack of warmth. Rhaegar didn't hurt Lyanna but he held onto her. A mixed bag.

You think Ned wouldn't mind if Rhaegar held onto Lyanna for his own political purposes?! That was his little sister!

Robb Stark's sister was held for political purposes and he didn't lack for anger.

Do you remember Ned's sleepless nights at the Trident, afraid the queen's men would find Arya?

Ned was filled with disgust at Robert, the queen, and Ilyn Payne when Sansa's wolf was held for political purposes. I think Ned would be anything but ambivalent had Rhaegar held Lyanna for political gain.

If Jorah Mormont had dishonored the north when selling poachers to slavers instead of sending them to servitude at the Wall, wouldn't Rhaegar have dishonored the north by holding Lyanna for political purposes that sent Brandon and Rickard to their graves?

It doesn't add up.

AMEN! And, though the show was much more explicit, we get that even in the tower fight scene. Arthur's the last thing Ned sees. The last one he speaks to, before the fight sets Lyanna screaming in his head. The guilt over Arthur and Lyanna are connected.

Word.

And just imagine pulling down that tower yourself after nearly dying. And, for Ned, it was a bitter memory. I think Arthur told Ned something on his deathbed that fundamentally changed him. Disillusionment. Otherwise, he'd have had no reason to return Dawn to Starfall.

ETA: That said--if Ned fully knew of Tywin's potentially being connected to Lyanna's disappearance, seems like he might connect Lyanna to them.

He does have that moment where Cersei tells him of her wedding night. Then Ned thinks of blue roses and wants to weep. He's making connections there. But to the rest of them, especially to Tywin. . . I can't see anything.

I can't see the Tywin connection to Lyanna. It seems like inverses of inverses of parallels of echoes. LOL

Ned is very clear and descriptive regarding his reasons for hating Tywin and Jaime Lannister. Lyanna never comes up in such reasoning, even tangentially.

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Why all of the Lannister Hate, Ned? May 23, 2016 14:41:33 GMT

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Post by SlyWren on May 23, 2016 14:41:33 GMT

[abbr class="time" title="Wed May 18 2016 09:41:58 GMT-0600 (MDT)" data-timestamp="1463586118000"]May 18, 2016 at 9:41am[/abbr] wolfmaid7 said:

I can't say what I want to say, but wolfmaid7 can:

Exactly,the whole environment and atmosphere doesn't warrant a girl's punani dripping with anticipation.

LOL

Amen!

In searching for a parallel for the dutiful and dead Jon Arryn, Ned finds himself remembering another nobleman who was killed, one Rhaegar Targaryen.

While many readers find themselves imagining a Rhaegar Targaryen who was willing to abduct a 14 year old girl in order to have sex with her, Ned finds himself imagining a Rhaegar Targaryen who was like Jon Arryn.

Jon Arryn... and not Robert Baratheon, the frequenter of brothels.

Possible, but it's a pretty narrow comparison. The regret over Rhaegar would thus be rather tangential and heavily influenced by regret re: Jon and Robert's decline. Vs. over Rhaegar per se.

You think Ned wouldn't mind if Rhaegar held onto Lyanna for his own political purposes?! That was his little sister!

But somehow or other, Rhaegar had Lyanna at the end. He didn't either take or send her home when he had the full power to do so.

So, one way or another, he held on to her. Period. And Rhaegar, crown prince trying to overthrow devil daddy, must have known returning Lyanna would defuse the war somewhat. Sending a message would help somewhat. He did not do this far as we know.

As for Ned's minding, he doesn't mourn Rhaegar's loss, but he doesn't loathe the man, either. That's the equivocal bit: he knows what Rhaegar did, but doesn't hate Rhaegar for some mitigating factor.

Robb Stark's sister was held for political purposes and he didn't lack for anger.

Ned was filled with disgust at Robert, the queen, and Ilyn Payne when Sansa's wolf was held for political purposes. I think Ned would be anything but ambivalent had Rhaegar held Lyanna for political gain.

But would Ned or Robb have been as angry at the Beric for asking for a ransom for Arya (whom Beric held on to--she's chased down the first time she tries to ride off) as he would have been at the Lannisters for taking Arya in the first place? Or even as angry as he'd be at the Hound for similar things? There is a difference in the "takings" and "holdings," no?

So, might there not have been a difference in how Lyanna was "taken" and "held" by Rhaegar? Since she's clearly "held" by him at some point--he didn't return her or send word he had her. He didn't try to call off the war before the Trident. He just didn't.

If Jorah Mormont had dishonored the north when selling poachers to slavers instead of sending them to servitude at the Wall, wouldn't Rhaegar have dishonored the north by holding Lyanna for political purposes that sent Brandon and Rickard to their graves?

It doesn't add up.

There has to be a difference--because, one way or another, Rhaegar held Lyanna. And Ned still doesn't loathe him.

Word.

And just imagine pulling down that tower yourself after nearly dying. And, for Ned, it was a bitter memory. I think Arthur told Ned something on his deathbed that fundamentally changed him. Disillusionment. Otherwise, he'd have had no reason to return Dawn to Starfall.

Very possible. The show would cut it since it's cut Starfall.

But I could also see Ned's taking Dawn to Starfall as an exchange. Even before he might have discovered that Lya had a baby.

I can't see the Tywin connection to Lyanna. It seems like inverses of inverses of parallels of echoes. LOL

All fair. But the three knights the Laughing Knight defeated are clearly tied to Tywin.

Plus, the Kingswood Brotherhood attack on Elia is making me think that it might be a precursor to a later attack on Lyanna by others.