Post by stdaga on Jan 12, 2021 15:36:29 GMT
I have always found it odd that Ned relented. Yes, Jon was clever and generous. But telling children that they can raise direwolves if they promise to be responsible is batshit crazy. On my first read, I was asking Ned, "what are you thinking!" Maybe it made a difference that I was raising my own child at the time. The strangeness of the children being entranced by those puppies despite mamma laying there and of Jon hearing the quiet wolf escaped me until others pointed them out
Well, Ned never tells us if he has dreamed of his own direwolves, but he dreams of the crypts and the stone direwolves and he knows his family history. Perhaps the logical father in him wanted to kill those puppies and walk away from the situation, but the metaphysical Stark connection in him recognized that this was the path. And I still think that one thing that initially made Ned not want to accept any of the pups was because Jon was left out of the equation. It was only Jon's acknowledging this, and being okay with not getting a pup, is what made Ned relent. And then Jon is gifted for his sacrifice. He is gifted with Ghost Pup, the pup hidden from us (and them) at first.
The people in this world don't think like we do, especially in regards to wild animals. They tend to bond and associate with their family sigil's in a deep way, so I can see how Ned might have been tempted by the direwolf pups.
Maybe so. A brand is a type of mark left behind, such as on livestock or even people. It's meant to mark or designate something. In that sense, if the Brandon's are chosen in some way, perhaps their name does mark them in this way. I also tend to associate brand with a burning stick or wood, and I do think that the Old English word root does discuss fire, flaming, a blaze, a torch, but also a sword, which is interesting, if you look at the stories connection to burning swords. But does the Brandon of the Stark's tie specifically to burning swords? Maybe. We also have the idea of our more modern use of the word brand, which is also a marking or designation of a sorts, a public persona or reputation. A bit like the Stark's are associated with direwolves as a symbol, or even ice in their behaviors. It's also could be tied to style or a manner of action.
Going back to the idea of associating the Stark's with ice, and then the hints of "brand" being associated with fire or heat (although, ice can brand, too!!!), I have long felt that there was a great deal of underlying heat or fire within the Stark's themselves, which is one reason I have tried to make a Targaryen connection for the Stark's, or even a proto-Targaryen dragon or fire connection. And maybe this "brand" idea comes back to that, as in a "burning brand".
There is no doubt that Brandon is an important name for the Stark's and it must have a meaning we are not aware of yet. I also think it's interesting that we are presented our Brandon of the generation we are watching, but he is a Bran, almost as if it's trying to hide or disguise his significance in some way.
Another use of the word "brand" is in a transitive or permanent sense, as in "his words were branded in my memory", as in an impression on the memory or sense, which might be what Brandon is all about.
I think the earliest Brandon we are aware of is Brandon of the Bloody Blade, a son of Garth Greenhand, not necessarily shown to us as a Stark, but tied to blood and a sword. Then we get Brandon the Builder, who is associated with the founding of House Stark (and Winterfell and the Wall and Storm's End and perhaps even the Hightower in Oldtown) who it is claimed in the Reach that this Brandon the Builder is a direct descendant of Brandon of the Bloody Blade, which ties back to Brandon of the Bloody Blade being first, and perhaps by the naming of his descendent after himself, this does tend to mark each person who carries his name. Even the Branda's of the world. And from this Brandon the Builder (who may descend from Brandon of the Bloody Blade) all the Stark's and the Kings of Winter and the Kings in the North descend. And while discussing these two oldest Brandon's, I have always found in interesting that one is tied to the killing of many CotF, while the other is tied to searching for them and learning their language and understanding their secrets. What is the difference between how one Brandon and the other Brandon viewed the CotF?
I certainly think it's possible that the Brandon's of each generation are meant to be sacrificed in some way, perhaps in a way that helps maintain the Stark's control of Winterfell and hence their hold on the north. But they have forgotten, like they have forgotten so much else, and that is why their power is slipping. In the lineage chart, we have several Brandon's, but only one was ever Lord of Winterfell, but he is connected by many generations right down to Eddard's generation. Perhaps the Brandon's were never meant to rule, and things started to go sideways at that point for the Starks?
We had touched on Jon and Catelyn's talk over Bran's sick bed, when Cat says to Jon, "it should have been you". That doesn't make much sense in the context of climbing and falling, because nothing in the story indicates that Jon is a climber, but what if she meant that Jon should have been "the Brandon" of this generation. If the Brandon's are meant to be sacrificial in some way, then this would have made Jon the sacrifice and her son Bran would have been spared? I know that's pretty out there, and how would Cat know about such things anyway? Probably more crazy talk from me.
Yes, a lot can change in a few years for a girl (or a boy, honestly) and we know that originally, GRRM had intended a five year gap, which could really have affected the physical and emotional development and needs of these characters. I think she is too young to feel much sexual interest at this point, but her storyline is layered with it, and her last chapters when she is in Braavos hint at an Arya who at least understands sexual desires, even if she doesn't feel much of that herself. Yet.
As to the underlying stuff in the text, this...
Arya's eyes went wide. Dark eyes, like his. "A sword," she said in a small, hushed breath.
The scabbard was soft grey leather, supple as sin. Jon drew out the blade slowly, so she could see the deep blue sheen of the steel. "This is no toy," he told her. AGOT-Jon II
The scabbard was soft grey leather, supple as sin. Jon drew out the blade slowly, so she could see the deep blue sheen of the steel. "This is no toy," he told her. AGOT-Jon II
I can't get past the subtle, sexual current in this exchange. A sword is another way of hinting at a male sexual organ, and a sheath for a females. GRRM isn't stupid, so if he didn't mean for this passage to have a sexual undertone, then I would be very surprised. And I don't think he is unaware of this passage or it's tone. And it's layered into the story early. Now, this get's much easier to swallow if you want to believe that Jon and Arya are cousins and not siblings, but GRRM has already layered incest into the story by the time of this passage, both in the Targaryen line as well as us being confronted by Jaime and Cersei's incest. And Arya's "scabbard" is tied to grey (a Stark color), leather a substance that is tied to skin or hide of living creatures, it's supple and tied to sin, which should make us aware of something important between Jon and Arya. Jon has given Arya a sword, for goodness sake, to be housed in a scabbard that is grey and supple as sin.
I can see how Jon could turn into a romantic hero for Sansa and/or a lover for Arya, but I don't really see either. The love between Arya and Jon really feels like sibling fondness to me without another overlay.
Sansa's male interests tend to be charming and princely, but lie within a more imaginative realm than real. The Hound is real though, and brutal, but somehow something in her has conflated that into her dreams of the "unkiss". Jon isn't really her type, or so it's presented to us, but she did crush on Waymar Royce and Waymar and Jon Snow tend to fit a type, slender, dark haired, grey eyed, etc, so its a possible connection. And she imagines a hero who will slay Janos Slynt, and then along comes Jon to do that very thing.
As to Arya, I have just mentioned in the above post some of the underlying sexual tones that I think GRRM has placed into their story, but I can also see that Arya and Jon do have a pure sibling relationship as well. I don't think incest would be an easy step for them, but I also think that by the time they meet each other again, they will be far different people than they were at the time they left Winterfell.
Yes, certainly he has. I don't know if it's about punishment, because he knows she would hate it. Or if it's because in a secret way, Tyrion wants what Jaime has. There is a lot that could be going on between the lines in that situation. A question that I always wondered is IF Cersei thought she could control Tyrion, would she chose to sleep with him. She seems to hate him and seems to be disgusted by his dwarfism, but at the same time, she is quite willing to use sex to gain power, so...
I don't know, but I have wondered if something like that might not be going on. It's also possible that neither of them are in that tower and are both off running about 10 secret missions in Planetos. Their absence from public view opens them up to vast possibilities. And it's vague to know how old they both are, but Malora seems to be Leyton's eldest daughter, but I don't know that means she might be past child bearing age or not. Otherwise they are just hanging out, eating popcorn and consulting books of spells. And I have no idea of she has been in that tower the whole ten years that Leyton has. But ten years is an interesting time frame, now that I think about it because that would put Leyton's time in the tower to just around the time that another daughter, Lynnesse, married Jorah Mormont. Leyton was out of the tower at that point, because Jorah was able to ask him for his daughters hand right after the tourney celebrating the end of the Greyjoy Rebellion.
Brandon the Builder certainly would have had sexual opportunities in far places. If the NK was a Brandon, he mated with someone (something?) that was not of their people. Certainly the same is true for Brandon the Shipwright. I would need to dig into their stories to opine on the other famous Brandons.
Certainly, GRRM gave Ned and his siblings their nicknames for a reason. Brandon is wild, Ned is quiet, Lyanna is the she-wolf but we know that she has a bit of that wild wolf's blood, too, while Benjen is a pup. In that sense, if there is something sexual going on in this generation, "the pup" almost takes Benjen out of the running for me. It makes him young and it's dismissive in a sexual sense. Brandon is certainly "wild" and there are hints to his sexual prowess in the story, almost as often as his name comes up. If we find some day that he was "wild" with his "wild" sister, then I would not be surprised. And if this incest trickles down in the family line, then I think Brandon/Lyanna incest will be easier for the fan base to swallow than Ned/Lyanna incest. In the end, I am not sure even if that was the intended result of the story, I don't think GRRM has the balls to do it any more. He has changed since he started writing this story 20+ years ago. At the same time, there is so much underlying incest in his story, it's hard to imagine that he went down that path for no reason. I tend to think it could be Ned because that is more unexpected, and GRRM likes to challenge how we view hero's and villains in any story, but again, I don't know that he has the balls to follow this path any longer. And honestly, Brandon and Lyanna makes sense in several ways, AND that doesn't touch on Ned, who would just be trying to do the best he could with the mess his family made of things.
As to incest in the Stark line, if it ends up being a thing in the story, it's hard to know which generation that GRRM will go with. Will it be Ned's generation or in Jon's generation, because to do it in both generations is almost overkill. So, I doubt we will see it play out in both generations, although I certainly think the hints lie in the text for it to be so.
As to the Brandon's that might have passed their Stark seen on to different areas of the world, that might turn out to be important, but I don't know how you track such a thing, especially over hundreds or thousands of years. And maybe tracking it would not matter?