What does the phrase "sweet sister" really hint at?

I do find it interesting that both Jaime and Tyrion use the phrase for Cersei, although they have quite different opinions of her, and different relationships with her.

We don't really get Jaime's opinion of Cersei, but he seems to know what she is. It seems that he loves her and maybe he respects her, but I doubt that he thinks of her as sweet.

Margaery seems to be certainly cozening Sansa in that scene, and dangles the marriage to Willas as bait. Marg is certainly a player in that regard with Sansa.

What I wonder about Marg is, has she simply been told to befriend Sansa or does she really understand the manipulation that is going on? Is she just trained to be sweet and more or less believes the words she is saying or does she see those words as part of a cynical game?

I do find that he named an island chain the "Three Sister's" and one of those islands is "Sweetsister" to be hard for me to not ponder as well.

The fact that the expression is used so much and is even the name of an island does seem to tell us that there is something else going on with it.

And how is it related to Sweetsister, the island, or possibly "sweet sister" the phrase? And that genetic trait, whatever it is, might have nothing to do with incest, but certainly could be a recessive gene that does show up from time to time for reasons that we are unclear about.

An odd genetic trait, not seen in other populations is a strong indication of in-breeding (of which incest is a subset). And, for obvious reasons, it is common for island populations to be highly inbred.

And in that same chapter when Davos meets Lord Borrell and we learn of "the mark" of the Borrell's, we also get hints that connect back to Dany, years and miles after she tries to seek passage on the Sloe-Eyed Maid, that ship ends up wrecked off the shores of Sweetsister, seasons from the ship used to flavor the Sister's Stew

Islands, at least in historic terms, have tended to be fairly isolated. They eat those things that are grown on the island, they breed with the island population, and they have little contact with the broader world
Ships can bring things from the outside: news, seasonings, breeding partners. When there is a limited range of options, of flavors or breeding partners, something from the outside can be highly desirable

The time that Cersei uses it in reference to Arya is one off the odder uses of the phrase. Cersei is certainly catty, but what has Arya done at this point to earn that dislike from Cersei? That is why I question if it's a hint about Lyanna, but then again. we don't even know if or how well, Cersei and Lyanna might have known each other.

Cersei wants Sansa under her influence, so may be saying things to influence her, assuming that Sansa will recognize and appreciate the sarcasm. For Arya is anything but sweet.
I've looked for hints that Cersei knew Lyanna (or didn't) but I don't really find anything. I thought I remembered Cersei putting an unflattering descriptive adjective on Lyanna and re-read the Ned and Cersei chapter but didn't find it. Oh well, I never get tired of re-reading that chapter; the beauty and craft of it grows on me with each re-read

Seems to be somewhat a term of endearment or mockingly so, especially in snarky House Lannister.

It seems to be used mockingly in every instance I find except

Lord Tywin was looking at his grandson. Joff gave him a sullen glance, shifted his feet, and helped Ser Garlan Tyrell to rise. "The gods are good. I am free to heed my heart. I will wed your sweet sister, and gladly, ser." He kissed Ser Garlan on a bearded cheek as the cheers rose all around them.

Also I believe that Ashara is the Fisherman's Daughter.

We get so little about the fisherman's daughter that I see no way to determine her identity other than to decide the identity of Jon's mother then deem her the fisherman's daughter. But with Ashara, that still seems to leave some big gaps to fil in due to her appearance. I'll grant that she could have been hooded or seen only from a distance, but something has to get her identified as the daughter of a particular fisherman

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What does the phrase "sweet sister" really hint at? Dec 22, 2020 16:32:06 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Dec 22, 2020 16:32:06 GMT

Asha uses the phrases several times as well. Very universal saying in Westeros at least. Then again Asha did almost trick Theon into incest so you might be onto something with this.

Seems to be somewhat a term of endearment or mockingly so, especially in snarky House Lannister.

Yes, there is that weird exchange between Asha and Theon when he first mistakes her identity. And she lets him go on, doesn't ever try to stop his behaviors. It makes sense to me that "sweet sister" if it's an incest hints, designates sibling incest, but there is also the oddness in House Greyjoy of a potential marriage between Asha and Victarion, which would be avuncular, but that doesn't seem to be completely out of line in Westeros. We know of two such marriages in House Stark, and also in House Targaryen, but nothing is really off the table for House Targaryen, so they are an outlier in regards to incest.

And for the most part, there is some snarkiness involved in the use of "sweet sister" especially when it comes from Jaime or Tyrion towards Cersei. Though, in general, they are a sarcastic bunch.

Also I am reminded of the Shy Maid. The Dornish boat that provides passage for Young Griff. Another Ashara reference? I know Martin has information hidden in the boats and ships in the story. Also I believe that Ashara is the Fisherman's Daughter.

I agree that there is a ton of information hidden in the names of ships, their cargos and destinations. I have a list of ships names to investigate, but I don't seem to get around to doing the work to research as much as I used to. The Shy Maid certainly hints at Ashara in the "maid" aspect, but not so much in the "shy" aspect. I don't know that we ever hear that Ashara is shy. But looking back to Harrenhal, the only person that seems to be tagged as Shy is Ned Stark. Of course, this leads to theories that Young Griff is tied to both Ashara and Ned, and that might turn out to be correct. For the most part, I agree that Ashara fit's the idea of the Fisherman's Daughter, but just a little bit of me wonders if it was Lyanna. If we had some physical description of Lyanna, that would help, but all we really know is that Arya reminds Ned of Lyanna, but looks don't automatically tie to coloring, although it could. I don't know why GRRM has been so vague about Lyanna's looks unless there is something to hide.

Shy and Maid are interesting without just thinking of the ship name. Asha Greyjoy refers to herself as a "shy maid" when she is groping Theon's privates, and then once again later in the story. Jeyne Westerling is referred to as a maid and her being shy, and this is after she has married Robb. The story of the Maids in the Pool at Maidenpool are referred to as shy as well. Brienne of Tarth is called a shy maid several times and she is probably the most awkward female in the story. There is the Harrenhal reference to possibly Ashara and Ned, but the majority of the references in the story are to the boat The Shy Maid.

This one sticks out to me, though, for some reason.

Young Griff pushed the Shy Maid away from a broken tower whose windows stared down like blind black eyes. ADWD-Tyrion V

It's interesting that it includes Young Griff, but even more so to me because of the reference to the "broken tower". I know the tower of Ned's fever dream is "long fallen" and not broken, but I seem to conflate the two in my head. Does this hint that Young Griff ties to whatever was in the tower of Ned's dreams? And if so, does that also tie to Ashara or Lyanna, because in Ned's dream, it's Lyanna that is tied to that tower, not Ashara.

And back to "sweet sister" for a moment...

Perhaps we will find out that "sweet sister" is a pretty normal phrase in conversation in Westeros, but it stands out to me each time I read it. Maybe because it start's so heavily handed with Viserys and Dany, and then veers to Cersei and Jaime in that tower at Winterfell. Anyway, I look forward to peoples thoughts on the subject. And always good to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

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What does the phrase "sweet sister" really hint at? Dec 22, 2020 16:56:00 GMT danl likes this

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Post by stdaga on Dec 22, 2020 16:56:00 GMT

We don't really get Jaime's opinion of Cersei, but he seems to know what she is. It seems that he loves her and maybe he respects her, but I doubt that he thinks of her as sweet.

I think Jaime's opinion of Cersei does alter. I don't think he was ever blind to what she was, but he becomes more aware that she will put herself first, before anyone, including himself or their children.

What I wonder about Marg is, has she simply been told to befriend Sansa or does she really understand the manipulation that is going on? Is she just trained to be sweet and more or less believes the words she is saying or does she see those words as part of a cynical game?

I think Margaery is quite aware of what she is doing and how she is manipulating Sansa. I think Marg was groomed by her grandmother at a quite young age, and Marg is smart, I have no doubt.

An odd genetic trait, not seen in other populations is a strong indication of in-breeding (of which incest is a subset). And, for obvious reasons, it is common for island populations to be highly inbred.

Yes, absolutely. We don't really have a family tree for the Borell's but I would bet that their marriages include families on one of the three islands that make up the Three Sisters, therefore, it would make them in a way similar to House Targaryen, who married into House Velaryon quite often, also neighbors on an island chain. I don't think with House Borell it would be outright direct family marriages because I don't know that would be overlooked very easily (although this island chain might be pretty much ignored), but yet, that trait seems to only tie to House Borell, not any other house or family that calls the Three Sister's home. That is interesting.

Islands, at least in historic terms, have tended to be fairly isolated. They eat those things that are grown on the island, they breed with the island population, and they have little contact with the broader world
Ships can bring things from the outside: news, seasonings, breeding partners. When there is a limited range of options, of flavors or breeding partners, something from the outside can be highly desirable

Borell also makes an odd comment about eating certain type of crab is like being a cannibal. It's the spider crab he is referring to, since it's on the sigil of his house. I can't tell if that is a skinchanging reference, but it also stands out to me in regards to isolated populations and skin changing, such as we see more of in the north. The skinchanging gene is another thing that I think is tied to incest, or at least selective inbreeding.

Cersei wants Sansa under her influence, so may be saying things to influence her, assuming that Sansa will recognize and appreciate the sarcasm. For Arya is anything but sweet.
I've looked for hints that Cersei knew Lyanna (or didn't) but I don't really find anything. I thought I remembered Cersei putting an unflattering descriptive adjective on Lyanna and re-read the Ned and Cersei chapter but didn't find it. Oh well, I never get tired of re-reading that chapter; the beauty and craft of it grows on me with each re-read

The imagery and words in that Godswood chapters is one of my favorites. I see something new each time I look at it. Cersei does make a comment about Lyanna, but it's not to Ned, it's earlier in the story, and in regards to Robert's love of her. "He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old.", which is from when Bran overhears Cersei and Jaime talking in the tower at Winterfell. Insipid is something that I have a hard time believing about Lyanna Stark, however, this comes from Cersei and she has no problem throwing about insults, whether they are true or not. Sometimes I think this description could fit Sansa, or at least the Sansa that she presents to the world. But that doesn't seem like what we know about Lyanna. Or Arya, who Lyanna is likened to. So, hard to say what Cersei is really getting at. She might just be being bitchy!

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What does the phrase "sweet sister" really hint at? Dec 22, 2020 22:07:30 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by danl on Dec 22, 2020 22:07:30 GMT

The Shy Maid certainly hints at Ashara in the "maid" aspect, but not so much in the "shy" aspect.

'Shy' isn't a word that I would think of when I think of Ashara (although we really don't know much). But 'shy' could be a reference to an ability to hide or to avoid being found or something of that sort

The roof the boy was standing on turned out to be the cabin of the Shy Maid, an old ramshackle single-masted poleboat. She had a broad beam and a shallow draft, ideal for making her way up the smallest of streams and crabwalking over sandbars. A homely maid, thought Tyrion, but sometimes the ugliest ones are the hungriest once abed. The poleboats that plied the rivers of Dorne were often brightly painted and exquisitely carved, but not this maid. Her paintwork was a muddy greyish brown, mottled and flaking; her big curved tiller, plain and unadorned. She looks like dirt, he thought, but no doubt that's the point.

A boat can be 'shy' but it can be painted and designed to avoid notice

If we had some physical description of Lyanna, that would help, but all we really know is that Arya reminds Ned of Lyanna, but looks don't automatically tie to coloring, although it could. I don't know why GRRM has been so vague about Lyanna's looks unless there is something to hide.

I think there was a scene when Bran saw what he thought was Arya but it turns out that it was Lyanna. If I'm remembering correctly, then there is a resemblance, at least as young children

I don't think with House Borell it would be outright direct family marriages because I don't know that would be overlooked very easily (although this island chain might be pretty much ignored), but yet, that trait seems to only tie to House Borell, not any other house or family that calls the Three Sister's home. That is interesting.

The trait might be more common if they weren't breeding with other families. As far as sibling marriages, I think we just don't know; we certainly have other examples of remote people having practices that are ignored or tolerated

Borell also makes an odd comment about eating certain type of crab is like being a cannibal. It's the spider crab he is referring to, since it's on the sigil of his house. I can't tell if that is a skinchanging reference, but it also stands out to me in regards to isolated populations and skin changing, such as we see more of in the north.

There are some interesting connections between families and their sigil animal. Descriptions of Lannisters can seem very cat-like. Obviously there is the skinchanging connection between Starks and Wolves and some type of bond between Targs and Dragons. I wouldn't be surprised to find some type of connection involving other families. Skin-changing a crab? Maybe

The skinchanging gene is another thing that I think is tied to incest, or at least selective inbreeding.

Agreed

"He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old.", which is from when Bran overhears Cersei and Jaime talking in the tower at Winterfell. Insipid is something that I have a hard time believing about Lyanna Stark, however, this comes from Cersei and she has no problem throwing about insults, whether they are true or not. Sometimes I think this description could fit Sansa, or at least the Sansa that she presents to the world. But that doesn't seem like what we know about Lyanna. Or Arya, who Lyanna is likened to. So, hard to say what Cersei is really getting at. She might just be being bitchy!

Yes, that is the quote I was thinking of. And "insipid" seems like an oddly specific insult to use randomly. There are slurs that can be easily used without knowing anything about someone but others, like 'insipid' have specific meaning. And it is certainly possible that, if Lyanna was at a relatively formal setting, out of her element, she may have been chattering vacuously even if she was very intelligent and driven in other settings. I think it's a hint that they have met, but not much more than a hint.

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What does the phrase "sweet sister" really hint at? Dec 23, 2020 16:46:04 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Dec 23, 2020 16:46:04 GMT

'Shy' isn't a word that I would think of when I think of Ashara (although we really don't know much). But 'shy' could be a reference to an ability to hide or to avoid being found or something of that sort

The roof the boy was standing on turned out to be the cabin of the Shy Maid, an old ramshackle single-masted poleboat. She had a broad beam and a shallow draft, ideal for making her way up the smallest of streams and crabwalking over sandbars. A homely maid, thought Tyrion, but sometimes the ugliest ones are the hungriest once abed. The poleboats that plied the rivers of Dorne were often brightly painted and exquisitely carved, but not this maid. Her paintwork was a muddy greyish brown, mottled and flaking; her big curved tiller, plain and unadorned. She looks like dirt, he thought, but no doubt that's the point.

A boat can be 'shy' but it can be painted and designed to avoid notice

Actually, when looking at the description of the Shy Maid, it's not only dirty, it's plain and considered homely and ugly. That doesn't sound like the Ashara that I have in my head, either. Ashara, by the accounts we have, is considered quite beautiful. Interesting, that contradiction. It also contradicts what the poleboats of Dorne look like. Actually, looking at this description, with grey and brown and mottled in the description, it reminds me of a ship that Davos describes in the harbor at White Harbor, The Merry Midwife.

The Merry Midwife stole into White Harbor on the evening tide, her patched sail rippling with every gust of wind.

She was an old cog, and even in her youth no one had ever called her pretty. Her figurehead showed a laughing woman holding an infant by one foot, but the woman's cheeks and the babe's bottom were both pocked by wormholes. Uncounted layers of drab brown paint covered her hull; her sails were grey and tattered. She was not a ship to draw a second glance, unless it was to wonder how she stayed afloat. The Merry Midwife was known in White Harbor too. For years she had plied a humble trade between there and Sisterton. ADWD-Davos II

What secret's does The Merry Midwife hold? Because we know the Shy Maid holds secrets held within a drab exterior. Anyway, I think that the Merry Midwife is somehow connected to the story of Ned and the Fisherman's Daughter. I am just not as convinced this is connected to Ashara, but I do wonder about Lyanna. It could be connected to both women, however. There is some connection between Lyanna and Ashara, and there is also some connection between the Sloe-Eyed Maid and The Merry Midwife, I would bet money on it.

I think there was a scene when Bran saw what he thought was Arya but it turns out that it was Lyanna. If I'm remembering correctly, then there is a resemblance, at least as young children

Yes, it was in his visions from the Weirwood. I think it's assumed that it is Lyanna, but there is no confirmation.

The rest of his father's words were drowned out by a sudden clatter of wood on wood. Eddard Stark dissolved, like mist in a morning sun. Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn't be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. "You be quiet, stupid," the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. "It's just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?" She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone. ADED-Bran III

If this is Lyanna, and the boy is Benjen, then Benjen has brownish-red hair, because that is Bran's hair color and it's enough to fool Bran. I think it's possible that it's one generation back, and this is Rickard and Lyarra in the Godswood. But the commonly excepted idea is that it is Benjen and Lyanna, and if that is the case, then Lyanna did look very like Arya. But it still doesn't give us a good physical description of either of the people in that vision. Old Nan has been at Winterfell for several generations, and is quite old now, so she could have reached back two or even more generations from the present as a nurse to the children of Winterfell.

The trait might be more common if they weren't breeding with other families. As far as sibling marriages, I think we just don't know; we certainly have other examples of remote people having practices that are ignored or tolerated

You might be right. The islands are remote, and pretty much ignored by the rest of Westeros, and lie somewhere between the North and the Vale, but fall to the Vale's rule. But how much attention is paid to the happenings on the islands. I would still think that the Citadel would pay attention to marriage contracts, but they honestly might not. And if they don't, and such things are happening, it might hint that such practices used to be much more common, and maybe still are.

There are some interesting connections between families and their sigil animal. Descriptions of Lannisters can seem very cat-like. Obviously there is the skinchanging connection between Starks and Wolves and some type of bond between Targs and Dragons. I wouldn't be surprised to find some type of connection involving other families. Skin-changing a crab? Maybe

It's not the most glorious of animals to have as your familiar, but maybe you don't get a choice in these things. I think House Celtigar is of Valyrian descent and has a crab on its sigil. A red crab! It's also a house of Valyrian descent that House Targaryen did not seem to marry into. Which I think is quite interesting, considering Valyrian blood. Another crab house is House Crabb, who Dick Crabb belongs to, Dick, whom Brienne travels with and then buries under a weirwood tree. No sigil for that family is described, but it makes sense it would have a crab on it, too. Crab's make me think of Patchfaces creepy riddle/song.

Yes, that is the quote I was thinking of. And "insipid" seems like an oddly specific insult to use randomly. There are slurs that can be easily used without knowing anything about someone but others, like 'insipid' have specific meaning. And it is certainly possible that, if Lyanna was at a relatively formal setting, out of her element, she may have been chattering vacuously even if she was very intelligent and driven in other settings. I think it's a hint that they have met, but not much more than a hint.

We don't really know how much time Lyanna spent in society. She was at Harrenhal, and Cersei was not (unless we are missing a huge detail), since I don't think any of the Lannister's (besides Jaime) went because they were angry at Aerys naming Jaime to the kingsguard. But they could have met elsewhere. Or Cersei could only know Lyanna by reputation, and her insults don't have much factuality in them. I agree with you that "insipid" is a fairly specific insult. I think of insipid as being dull, flavorless, rather boring. Lacking spirit or character. I am not sure what Cersei means by it. Or GRRM!

The only other time the word is used in the whole series is early in the story, even before Cersei uses it to describe Lyanna.

After them came the children. Little Rickon first, managing the long walk with all the dignity a three-year-old could muster. Jon had to urge him on when he stopped to visit. Close behind came Robb, in grey wool trimmed with white, the Stark colors. He had the Princess Myrcella on his arm. She was a wisp of a girl, not quite eight, her hair a cascade of golden curls under a jeweled net. Jon noticed the shy looks she gave Robb as they passed between the tables and the timid way she smiled at him. He decided she was insipid. Robb didn't even have the sense to realize how stupid she was; he was grinning like a fool. AGOT-Jon I

This has always struck me as Jon being a bit mean, as well as jealous of Robb. Anyway, Jon uses other words such as timid in her smile and even stupid. Certainly, Myrcella has done nothing to earn being called stupid. Timid, perhaps, if she is quiet or scared and nervous, but stupid seems harsh. I don't know if GRRM was trying to make such a connection between these two times, since it's the only two times he uses the word, or if he just needed to get a thesaurus!

Also, in this odd description from Jon's POV, he completely manages to not mention or describe Bran in this procession in any type of way. I think GRRM has stated before he just forgot, but it's a huge thing to forget. Goodness!

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What does the phrase "sweet sister" really hint at? Dec 23, 2020 19:57:23 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by danl on Dec 23, 2020 19:57:23 GMT

Actually, when looking at the description of the Shy Maid, it's not only dirty, it's plain and considered homely and ugly. That doesn't sound like the Ashara that I have in my head, either. Ashara, by the accounts we have, is considered quite beautiful. Interesting, that contradiction.

It might be interesting if Ashara had a habit of dirtying herself up a bit, putting on a headscarf or hood and disappearing. It probably wouldn't take much to make her striking appearance disappear, as long as someone didn't get close enough to see her eyes
Although the Shy Maid looks drab, it is apparently a quality vessel

What secret's does The Merry Midwife hold? Because we know the Shy Maid holds secrets held within a drab exterior. Anyway, I think that the Merry Midwife is somehow connected to the story of Ned and the Fisherman's Daughter.

The world is probably full of very worn looking ships. So appearing as one more of them would be a good way to hide

Yes, it was in his visions from the Weirwood. I think it's assumed that it is Lyanna, but there is no confirmation.

Yeah, I have always assumed that, but maybe not. I was thinking He was called Brandon, but the only name is Old Nan

I think it's possible that it's one generation back, and this is Rickard and Lyarra in the Godswood. But the commonly excepted idea is that it is Benjen and Lyanna, and if that is the case, then Lyanna did look very like Arya. But it still doesn't give us a good physical description of either of the people in that vision.

I think we can be very safe in assuming they look similar to Bran and Arya, but less in which generation they are
We don't really know when she started getting called Old Nan, but it seems like a name that would be given by a child. So she wasn't necessarily all that old when she became 'Old Nan.' So two generations back doesn't seem unrealistic

I agree with you that "insipid" is a fairly specific insult. I think of insipid as being dull, flavorless, rather boring. Lacking spirit or character. I am not sure what Cersei means by it. Or GRRM!

When I think of someone who is insipid, the image most likely to come to mind is the brainless teenage female who says things just to be saying something, saying things that seem good to say but without really expressing anything interesting. That isn't the image we have of Lyanna at all, but could be her persona when she was in a situation that called for talk rather than action. If Arya in KL had enough maturity to not blurt out whatever came to mind, she might not have had anything to say that was worth saying -- she might have seemed a bit insipid. Or Cersei might have been repeating something she had heard or, like Jon, making a completely unfounded judgment

This has always struck me as Jon being a bit mean, as well as jealous of Robb. Anyway, Jon uses other words such as timid in her smile and even stupid. Certainly, Myrcella has done nothing to earn being called stupid.

Disturbingly enough, my opinion of Myrcella is pretty close to Jon's, and I don't think there is really anything to base that on other than Jon's thought when he first saw her
I do think Jon was feeling jealous and bitter and a bit petty. At his age, and given his situation, that's entirely understandable, but still not admirable.

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What does the phrase "sweet sister" really hint at? Dec 24, 2020 16:21:26 GMT danl likes this

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Post by stdaga on Dec 24, 2020 16:21:26 GMT

It might be interesting if Ashara had a habit of dirtying herself up a bit, putting on a headscarf or hood and disappearing. It probably wouldn't take much to make her striking appearance disappear, as long as someone didn't get close enough to see her eyes
Although the Shy Maid looks drab, it is apparently a quality vessel

I suppose this could work for any character, even Cersei, who comes to Jaime as a tavern wench on one occasion that he remembers, although she might not have been dirty. I think this also applies to several disguises that Arya takes on. Dirty or disheveled is something she does to hide herself. And it's quite possible that this could apply to Ashara, or even Lyanna. If either of these two ships is about one or both of those women, then a sturdy and safe vessel can be hidden in a disguise of disrepair.

Yeah, I have always assumed that, but maybe not. I was thinking He was called Brandon, but the only name is Old Nan

I think we can be very safe in assuming they look similar to Bran and Arya, but less in which generation they are
We don't really know when she started getting called Old Nan, but it seems like a name that would be given by a child. So she wasn't necessarily all that old when she became 'Old Nan.' So two generations back doesn't seem unrealistic

You are correct about Old Nan. How old was she before she earned that Old in front of her name? Isn't Hodor her great grandson, and he must be in his 20's. Of course, generations turned over faster in this world, so that still might not tell us much. But do you have to be a grandparent to be considered old or just a parent? Do you have to have grey in your hair? If so, then Eddard Stark is considered old at 35. Certainly this is another vague aspect to the story.

If it is Benjen and Lyanna in Bran's vision, then I think that Benjen's hair color is not the brown of the Stark's, but a more reddish brown, such as Bran's hair color is. Which could indicate something to us about genetics, and why Ned and Cat were able to produce so many red headed children. We also don't know the age difference between Benjen and Lyanna, but in the vision, the girl is clearly taller than the boy. Arya is 2 years older than Bran, but I don't know that there is a significant height difference between them.

When I think of someone who is insipid, the image most likely to come to mind is the brainless teenage female who says things just to be saying something, saying things that seem good to say but without really expressing anything interesting. That isn't the image we have of Lyanna at all, but could be her persona when she was in a situation that called for talk rather than action. If Arya in KL had enough maturity to not blurt out whatever came to mind, she might not have had anything to say that was worth saying -- she might have seemed a bit insipid. Or Cersei might have been repeating something she had heard or, like Jon, making a completely unfounded judgment

I tend to think that Cersei is being mean, and also throwing mindless insults at a person who has vexed her marriage, even if Lyanna is dead, Robert has never let her go. But insipid is certainly specific. I can understand your definition, and that might turn out to be the case. Arya certainly avoided society, and Ned let her, but Lyanna might not have had the same freedom, and had been forced to be part of a society that she did not fit into, and therefore stood out in an uncomfortable way.

Disturbingly enough, my opinion of Myrcella is pretty close to Jon's, and I don't think there is really anything to base that on other than Jon's thought when he first saw her
I do think Jon was feeling jealous and bitter and a bit petty. At his age, and given his situation, that's entirely understandable, but still not admirable.

I tend to find Myrcella likeable, but can't really say why. She seems nice, expresses happiness when she hears that Bran might recover. This goes for Tommen, too. I do think Myrcella ends up looking like a bit of a fool in her kidnapping, but she is also trusting of Ser Arys, and he has lead her astray. She is smart enough to have mastered cyvasse with ease. I think there is more to her than it might appear. I think she could grow into someone wise if she lives that long.

Jon in the early stages of the story, goes from being okay at times to being seen as a bit of an ass. His interaction with Tyrion on the journey to the wall, as well as his thoughts on his fellow recruits, are less than admirable. However, they are probably pretty realistic, and the fact is that most people don't always act the best that they could or should, and all we can do is strive to be better than we were before. I think Jon is very well written in that way. He is transforming before our eyes, which is what characters should do. Not remain stagnate. Jaime develops in this way, as well.

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

danl
Catelyn Tully

Posts: 642

What does the phrase "sweet sister" really hint at? Dec 26, 2020 17:40:56 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by danl on Dec 26, 2020 17:40:56 GMT

I suppose this could work for any character, even Cersei, who comes to Jaime as a tavern wench on one occasion that he remembers, although she might not have been dirty. I think this also applies to several disguises that Arya takes on. Dirty or disheveled is something she does to hide herself. And it's quite possible that this could apply to Ashara, or even Lyanna. If either of these two ships is about one or both of those women, then a sturdy and safe vessel can be hidden in a disguise of disrepair.

I think it is most pronounced in Cersei and Varys, because he has a persona in which appearance is very important. An unkempt Varys or Cersei is an effective disguise. For Arya, unkempt is not enough because it is part of her persona already, and that may be the same for Lyanna. But I suspect that a drab and disheveled Ashara would not be noticed as Ashara. Obviously Arya or Lyanna can still find an effective disguise, but a little dirt isn't going to be enough to really hide

Of course, generations turned over faster in this world, so that still might not tell us much. But do you have to be a grandparent to be considered old or just a parent? Do you have to have grey in your hair?

As in our world, there probably isn't a single clear answer. I know people who have spent a good part of their lives coping with trauma or severe pain who are old before 40, with gray stringy hair and lines on their faces and a bit of a bent back, and many of those 40 year olds are grandparents and will be great grandparents by 50. But there are plenty of young 60-year-olds, with lines on our faces and losing some body in the hair but walking straight and with plenty of energy. That said, when trying to assess a name like Old Nan, we are probably dealing more with the perceptions of young children with 20 something parents, so a 30 something caregiver might have been nana or Old Nan.

If it is Benjen and Lyanna in Bran's vision, then I think that Benjen's hair color is not the brown of the Stark's, but a more reddish brown, such as Bran's hair color is. Which could indicate something to us about genetics, and why Ned and Cat were able to produce so many red headed children. We also don't know the age difference between Benjen and Lyanna, but in the vision, the girl is clearly taller than the boy. Arya is 2 years older than Bran, but I don't know that there is a significant height difference between them.

I think most of us attribute red hair in Stark children to Cat's genes. But I think you are right about that red hair, whether it is Benjen or an earlier generation, that there is already red hair in the Stark family.

I tend to find Myrcella likeable, but can't really say why. She seems nice, expresses happiness when she hears that Bran might recover. This goes for Tommen, too. I do think Myrcella ends up looking like a bit of a fool in her kidnapping, but she is also trusting of Ser Arys, and he has lead her astray. She is smart enough to have mastered cyvasse with ease. I think there is more to her than it might appear. I think she could grow into someone wise if she lives that long.

I think you are probably correct about Myrcella's intelligence and personality, although Cersei, in the right circumstances, is capable of expressing concern for some ailing or injured member of another family. It's protocol. I'm inclined to think it is heartfelt with Myrcella, but I don't really have a reason to say that. But playing Cyvasse and seemingly picking it up fast and enjoying it is a sign that she is intelligent and it would be fun to see her become significant to the plot.
I'm not sure we should count it as a strike against her that she trusted Ser Arys too much. Before she was sent into a country with many hidden dangers, she was probably instructed on the importance of trusting her chief bodyguard and doing what he tells her without question.

Jon in the early stages of the story, goes from being okay at times to being seen as a bit of an ass. His interaction with Tyrion on the journey to the wall, as well as his thoughts on his fellow recruits, are less than admirable. However, they are probably pretty realistic, and the fact is that most people don't always act the best that they could or should, and all we can do is strive to be better than we were before. I think Jon is very well written in that way. He is transforming before our eyes, which is what characters should do. Not remain stagnate. Jaime develops in this way, as well.

The great thing about Jon as a character is that he is so flawed. As a child, we see bitterness that sometimes becomes pettiness, and that exists alongside his generousity. As he develops, the pettiness disappears and he comes to understand his privilege and his flaws are other types of blind spots

stdaga
Vhagar

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What does the phrase "sweet sister" really hint at? Dec 28, 2020 16:05:52 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Dec 28, 2020 16:05:52 GMT

I think it is most pronounced in Cersei and Varys, because he has a persona in which appearance is very important. An unkempt Varys or Cersei is an effective disguise. For Arya, unkempt is not enough because it is part of her persona already, and that may be the same for Lyanna. But I suspect that a drab and disheveled Ashara would not be noticed as Ashara. Obviously Arya or Lyanna can still find an effective disguise, but a little dirt isn't going to be enough to really hide

Maybe this is why Arya's disguise and persona game is ramped up with her education at the House of Black and White. Because just being dirty isn't enough. Although, initially, the hair cut and boy cloths are enough to get her out of the city, along with the help of Yoren. Varys seems to be a master of disguise, but his silks and powder and perfume might be more of a disguise than the real him. Cersei is beautiful, pampered and dresses like it, so any variation to her might be a good disguise. But even when she meets Ned in the godswood, she is dressed plainly, but he tells us there was no hiding her beauty. Some of a disguise might be in the views eyes, seeing what you expect to see, as opposed to what you really see.

As in our world, there probably isn't a single clear answer. I know people who have spent a good part of their lives coping with trauma or severe pain who are old before 40, with gray stringy hair and lines on their faces and a bit of a bent back, and many of those 40 year olds are grandparents and will be great grandparents by 50. But there are plenty of young 60-year-olds, with lines on our faces and losing some body in the hair but walking straight and with plenty of energy. That said, when trying to assess a name like Old Nan, we are probably dealing more with the perceptions of young children with 20 something parents, so a 30 something caregiver might have been nana or Old Nan.

Certainly age does make a difference in our perception of others. When I was 12, I thought I would be ancient once I turned thirty. Turns out, now I am in my later 40's, and don't feel ancient at all. So, if how we view ourselves can be so skewed, how we view others can be as well. Old Nan's age is a bit of a mystery, and maybe it always has been, if she was vague about that, even when she came to Winterfell. Either pretending to be older than she truly was, or even younger.

I think most of us attribute red hair in Stark children to Cat's genes. But I think you are right about that red hair, whether it is Benjen or an earlier generation, that there is already red hair in the Stark family.

It feels right to be that there is some red in the Stark's already, but it's hidden from us. But it's also possible that the red hair only comes from the Tully side, and I am thinking to hard about it.

I think you are probably correct about Myrcella's intelligence and personality, although Cersei, in the right circumstances, is capable of expressing concern for some ailing or injured member of another family. It's protocol. I'm inclined to think it is heartfelt with Myrcella, but I don't really have a reason to say that. But playing Cyvasse and seemingly picking it up fast and enjoying it is a sign that she is intelligent and it would be fun to see her become significant to the plot.
I'm not sure we should count it as a strike against her that she trusted Ser Arys too much. Before she was sent into a country with many hidden dangers, she was probably instructed on the importance of trusting her chief bodyguard and doing what he tells her without question.

I do think she must have been instructed to trust and listen to Arys, which would be why Arianne had to seduce the knight, because she understood he was a key to Myrcella's manipulation. But still, if Myrcella is as bright as I think she could be, she should have questioned this somewhat. Still, plot and all, GRRM perhaps needed this all to happen, so he made Myrcella follow along when she otherwise should not have, just as he put's Ned Stark in some poor decisions, when otherwise it doesn't really fit the character. All for the sake of "plot".