SlyWren, re: But it is interesting they'd use iron, but not weirwood. . . .
So weirwood keeps the Black Gate safe from ?? I kind of feel like its a burglar alarm. It can record all of the crossings. Part of it is black, too, perhaps ironwood for protection, sentinel for guarding? Have we a color for these woods?
Iron for the cage: Statement? Like the iron on the Winter Kings crowns? Is that why the Others hate iron? It's not cause it kills them!
So weirwood keeps the Black Gate safe from ?? I kind of feel like its a burglar alarm. It can record all of the crossings. Part of it is black, too, perhaps ironwood for protection, sentinel for guarding? Have we a color for these woods?
We don't have any black in the description from Bran:
Quote: A turn or two later Sam stopped suddenly. He was a quarter of the way around the well from Bran and Hodor and six feet farther down, yet Bran could barely see him. He could see the door, though. The Black Gate, Sam had called it, but it wasn't black at all.
It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it.
A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it. The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that. Storm, Bran IV
Iron for the cage: Statement? Like the iron on the Winter Kings crowns? Is that why the Others hate iron? It's not cause it kills them!
I like the idea of it's being a statement. Still, the Prologue: Will finds the taste of iron comforting as he climbs the sentinel with the knife in his mouth. Sounds like iron might have--deterrent power? I know Heresy has slogged through the iron issue before. But I'm not sure what it means.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
It has struck me before that the formulation of this part is reminiscent of a structure found in celtic poetry where the poet claims a kind of mystic one-ness with the land by using an "I am " formula for a range of somewhat abstract things. The most famous example is probably the Song of Amergin, which is best known in Robert Graves very loose translation in The White Goddess. A number of Taliesin's poems use the same "I am"/"I was" formula, such as this from the Cad Goddeu:
I was a sword in the hand I was a shield in battle. I was a string in a harp
voice: apologies for possibly necro-ing this thread. kingmonkey--My apologies for dragging this back up. But I apparently have a case of glacier brain and it took a long time for me to remember what Amergin was about:
He was singing to the land and peoples to unite them against the Tuatha de Daanan--the gods/faeries--to get control of Ireland.He joins himself with the elements that control the cosmos and land. And thus has the power to drive the Tuatha de back. Even thwart the wind (cold winds rising?) and get it to die down. Was able to calm a storm (storm god?) by singing to the sea storm and allow allies to land at sea.
Robert Graves translation:
I am a stag: of seven tines, I am a flood: across a plain, I am a wind: on a deep lake, I am a tear: the Sun lets fall, I am a hawk: above the cliff, I am a thorn: beneath the nail, I am a wonder: among flowers, I am a wizard: who but I Sets the cool head aflame with smoke?
I am a spear: that roars for blood, I am a salmon: in a pool, I am a lure: from paradise, I am a hill: where poets walk, I am a boar: ruthless and red, I am a breaker: threatening doom, I am a tide: that drags to death, I am an infant: who but I Peeps from the unhewn dolmen, arch?
I am the womb: of every holt, I am the blaze: on every hill, I am the queen: of every hive, I am the shield: for every head, I am the tomb: of every hope.
These lines in particular sound rather Oathy-- I am the womb: of every holt, I am the blaze: on every hill, I am the queen: of every hive, I am the shield: for every head, I am the tomb: of every hope.
So, is the oath the call to unite the land per se? Not an oath to stay at the Wall, but to unite the land? An invocation to be spoken at the opportune moment.
The ONLY thing we're told in the World Book that the children of the forest actually teach anyone is their teaching Brandon the Builder their language. Which sounds like the sounds of the earth.
Songs of the earth, uniting the land. I'm thinking the Oath might have always been the invocation. That got turned into an oath. And it's the info Jon needs to know--needs to see the land and people as united (as he does when he's in the godswood with the new recruits and smells them all as Ghost does. Then sees them as Ghost does--they are ALL just men. United.
So, are these the words Jon must say at the Battle for the Dawn?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Oh, and as long as I'm bringing back the topic out of nowhere:
Does anyone know if Martin ever read Susan Cooper's The Dark is Rising series? I lived on them when I was about 9. But Martin is a grown man, so he may not have liked them.
But, in the last novel, Bran (son of Arthur Pendragon) and Will go on a quest to find the crystal sword for Bran (son of Arthur) to wield in the final battle.
The invocation which allows Bran (brought forward in time for protection) to claim the sword? An invocation they only learn after getting through some trials? Cooper directly quotes Graves' translation of the Song of Amergin. The last stanza.
If Martin ever read the series (it won a few awards), seems like he may be using a similar thing with the oath and the sword. An invocation to gain power. And prove worth.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I loved that series SlyWren. ( My bird illustration is from the Oldest creatures...Will learns about them in the same book as the Amergin stanzas) So does Marwyn= Cooper's Merriman Lyons?
Ps...In that the North embodies the Celtic Land/Goddess: yes. That's really what drives the whole "Jon as the Sacrificial King" aka the Holly-Oak Kings theory, as I'm sure you know. The unanswered question still is: Is Bran of Winterfell unwittingly the champion of endless Summer ( and will Jon have to kill him) or vice versa?
Ps...In that the North embodies the Celtic Land/Goddess: yes. That's really what drives the whole "Jon as the Sacrificial King" aka the Holly-Oak Kings theory, as I'm sure you know. The unanswered question still is: Is Bran of Winterfell unwittingly the champion of endless Summer ( and will Jon have to kill him) or vice versa?
This is more yours and wolfmaid7's territory than mine.
But this idea of Bran's getting suckered into fighting for such a thing by a Targaryan greenseer--especially when we have Alysanne shutting up the Nightfort and Aerys trying to drive away winter with wildfire--it's gotta be a possibility. The Targs seem to hate/fear the north and winter.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
The Reeds exchanged a look. "We'll find this gate at the bottom of the well?" asked Jojen.
Sam shook his head. "You won't. I have to take you."
"Why?" Meera demanded. "If there's a gate . . ."
"You won't find it. If you did it wouldn't open. Not for you. It's the Black Gate." Sam plucked at the faded black wool of his sleeve. "Only a man of the Night's Watch can open it, he said. A Sworn Brother who has said his words."
Not "sworn his oath" but "said his words." Like I said to @morrigansraven, it may be a distinction without a difference, but I think the "vow" is new. The invocation, the power of the words--that's the original power.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
The invocation, the power of the words--that's the original power.
Definitely. Hence why GRRM did not let his editor cut out his "words are wind" refrain. The wind is coming, like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and its words are implacable.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Definitely. Hence why GRRM did not let his editor cut out his "words are wind" refrain. The wind is coming, like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and its words are implacable.
If so--the cold winds are rising--the cold words are rising???
Another potential tie into Cooper and her idea of "cold spells."
But definitely ties into the fractured, breaking sounds of the Others' language.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
-Merriman just seems like Merlin. And Marwyn. . . is something else.
Hmm, I am leaning toward Marwyn being very much a Merlin-type. Merlin is a Druid, very much into omens, portents, legitimacy of rule. Druids were poets, so ties in with "saying the words". If Marwyn follows the Merlin storyline he will be betrayed by allowing himself to fall in love (Sarella, I am on to you, lol!)
this idea of Bran's getting suckered into fighting for such a thing by a Targaryan greenseer--especially when we have Alysanne shutting up the Nightfort and Aerys trying to drive away winter with wildfire--it's gotta be a possibility. The Targs seem to hate/fear the north and winter.
It’s seductive because of confirmation bias, lol. I try to keep Celtic mythology out of my theories, but as wolfmaid7 says, Martin's borrowing my stories, it is ok to recognize them. But as you say, there is a Targaryen in the tree for a reason. Black Crow on W. is currently convinced that Bloodraven will honor his mother's people over the dragons, but I disagree. His whole story is King Arthur's brother/son, Mordred. He uses magic to gain the power that is his "right by birth", though he is blocked by the circumstances of his birth from the elevation he craves.
The invocation, the power of the words--that's the original power.
The incantation is a dedication to the intentionof the Night's Watch. The "vows" are the rules of the order. The "words" are the rules of the soul. I am...
The incantation is a dedication to the intentionof the Night's Watch. The "vows" are the rules of the order. The "words" are the rules of the soul. I am...
Precisely. Words are wind, aye... But Wind is not nothing. And we are talking about winds from the heart, spoken at a great hinge of the world.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."