Heavy and cool stuff. IMHO, it's not so much the literal "meaning" of the words. It's the meter, syllables, the SOUND. Mother LadySage is a retired English professor who went to Oxford. When I was little, she told me that in very ancient times, when humans had to start speaking, that it was like poetic yodelling...- chuckling-
Precisely. Words are wind, aye... But Wind is not nothing. And we are talking about winds from the heart, spoken at a great hinge of the world.
Some might even equate the human spirit with wind, I'd say.
No Joseph sightings lately, lol. Though I admit I admire Dr. Joseph Campbell's writing more
LadyDi, I'm going off-topic to spitball for a sec. The Cold wind of the Others. Mel burns a man for wind. A wind blows up when Morq "fixes" Victorian's hand Is it a hot wind?
Joseph Conrad? Who's that? Some might even equate the human spirit with wind, I'd say.
No Joseph sightings lately, lol. Though I admit I admire Dr. Joseph Campbell's writing more
LadyDi, I'm going off-topic to spitball for a sec. The Cold wind of the Others. Mel burns a man for wind. A wind blows up when Morq "fixes" Victorian's hand Is it a hot wind?
I'd say that depends on whether fire it ice is used in conjunction with blood magic. Your first example is ice related blood magic. The second two are fire related blood magic. Also note that Stannis's shadow enters Renly's tent with a gust of wind.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Hmm, I am leaning toward Marwyn being very much a Merlin-type. Merlin is a Druid, very much into omens, portents, legitimacy of rule. Druids were poets, so ties in with "saying the words". If Marwyn follows the Merlin storyline he will be betrayed by allowing himself to fall in love (Sarella, I am on to you, lol!)
Okay--I see your point.
So, Sarella will imprison in him a cave?
But Marwyn got introduced in Game--he's got to do something more significant than quotes about magic and glass candles. So, I could see him as Sam's . . . mentor maybe.
It’s seductive because of confirmation bias, lol. I try to keep Celtic mythology out of my theories, but as wolfmaid7 says, Martin's borrowing my stories, it is ok to recognize them.
But as you say, there is a Targaryen in the tree for a reason. Black Crow on W. is currently convinced that Bloodraven will honor his mother's people over the dragons, but I disagree. His whole story is King Arthur's brother/son, Mordred. He uses magic to gain the power that is his "right by birth", though he is blocked by the circumstances of his birth from the elevation he craves.
Yes--the idea that Bloodraven will turn out to be the one truly self-sacrificing soul who does only right in the novels seems. . . unlikely. People do change in the novels but they are also still themselves.
We've seen what Dany sees when the dragon approaches--live, and love, and home, and sex, and birth and death--all gone. Only fire and ash. Destruction. The Others are Ice Dragons.
Gotta think that could be part of the reason Bloodraven's in that tree. Couldn't wake the fire dragons, so woke the ice ones?
The incantation is a dedication to the intentionof the Night's Watch. The "vows" are the rules of the order. The "words" are the rules of the soul. I am...
YUP!!! And, unless I'm very much mistaken, the rules of the order have forgotten the rules of the soul.
The incantation (similar root as "chant" and thus "song") unites all in one. The rules of the order divide one group of humans from another. Those need to go. The invocation/ incantation is the key.
Some might even equate the human spirit with wind, I'd say.
YUP!!!
Sound and spirit--we saw how far and fast Ned's spirit traveled--it beat the ravens. So he could speak to his youngest boys. Words are wind--and life.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
YUP!!! And, unless I'm very much mistaken, the rules of the order have forgotten the rules of the soul.
The incantation (similar root as "chant" and thus "song") unites all in one. The rules of the order divide one group of humans from another. Those need to go. The invocation/ incantation is the key.
Agreed. That is why I think the version spoken at the Black Gate by Samwell is THE VERSION. The rest seems rather superfluous in terms of dealing with the Others.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Agreed. That is why I think the version spoken at the Black Gate by Samwell is THE VERSION. The rest seems rather superfluous in terms of dealing with the Others.
Which is why I doubt it will remain at the end of the saga.
All the talk of Jon's breaking or not breaking his oath seems to ignore what the original words were. So--is he breaking his oath if he fulfills what's at the core of that oath?
And would such an argument make a Westerosi jury happy?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
All the talk of Jon's breaking or not breaking his oath seems to ignore what the original words were. So--is he breaking his oath if he fulfills what's at the core of that oath?
Of paramount concern in is Oathbreaking is his desire to protect the place where Winter Fell.
voice, I think that the Black Gate requires two components to work. First is the oath, second is that you swear your vow in front of the Heart Tree when you take your vows. What do you think?
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
voice, I think that the Black Gate requires two components to work. First is the oath, second is that you swear your vow in front of the Heart Tree when you take your vows. What do you think?
Definitely agree. I would argue that unless the vows have been spoken at a heart tree, the brother is not sworn (in the classical sense).
pieceofgosa once brought up an interesting angle to the vow as well. Which btw gosa, you should repost that "oath in blood" theory here!
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I'm more on board with the idea that the Night's Watch was sacrificing children to the Others for thousands of years via the Black Gate in the Night Fort. This was part of the Pact between humans and the Others. There are some good connections in the video but I have thought of a few more.
The Night's Watch has 19 castles, Craster has 19 wives. White Tree is almost directly North of the Night Fort, while Queen's Crown is directly south. The rangers are well aware of Craster's sacrifices.
It's interesting that only select Northern houses and houses of Valyrian lineages practiced the Lord's right to the first night. The Northern's practiced it to create bastards snows to be sacrificed. The Valyrians would do it to spread more Valyrian blood in order to create more dragonseeds.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
I'm more on board with the idea that the Night's Watch was sacrificing children to the Others for thousands of years via the Black Gate in the Night Fort. This was part of the Pact between humans and the Others. There are some good connections in the video but I have thought of a few more.
The Night's Watch has 19 castles, Craster has 19 wives. White Tree is almost directly North of the Night Fort, while Queen's Crown is directly south. The rangers are well aware of Craster's sacrifices.
It's interesting that only select Northern houses and houses of Valyrian lineages practiced the Lord's right to the first night. The Northern's practiced it to create bastards snows to be sacrificed. The Valyrians would do it to spread more Valyrian blood in order to create more dragonseeds.
My phone is about to die so I can't say much, but I will when I'm plugged in again.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Interesting how Jon seems to collect weirwood colored mates.
YUP!!!! I know the show's costuming is nothing even close to canon, but when Sansa came out for her marriage at the weirwood, I immediately thought she looked like a weirwood. Even the fabric had a pattern on it to give it the look of wood/bark from a distance.
I need to get to your Weirwood Ghost, thread, but for the moment: Jon's affinity with the weirwoods and all the unity of history and people they contain. . . there's a reason for this.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
voice, I think that the Black Gate requires two components to work. First is the oath, second is that you swear your vow in front of the Heart Tree when you take your vows. What do you think?
Definitely agree. I would argue that unless the vows have been spoken at a heart tree, the brother is not sworn (in the classical sense).
"Not sworn," perhaps. But also--"not aware." That oath is an invocation of unity. Living unity. And one of the key elements of unity in Westeros are those weirwoods. As voice says--they are the hearts.
So, unless you get that, how could the oath have efficacy? Sam speaks before the weir wood with Jon because of Jon. Because of his new found brotherhood with Jon. That why he and the others bring Jon back when he runs off to Robb.
Sam doesn't understand everything, but he gets that. And he's helping Gilly escape when Coldhands finds them. Seems like Sam's pretty far along with the unity mindset.
I'm now wondering if the Gate would open if Ser Allister said the words. . . or if it might just eat him.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I'm more on board with the idea that the Night's Watch was sacrificing children to the Others for thousands of years via the Black Gate in the Night Fort. This was part of the Pact between humans and the Others. There are some good connections in the video but I have thought of a few more.
Or perhaps there was more than one "pact?" The one the humans made with the children.
But for the humans who wanted to harness the power of the Others (like Craster wants protection--I think), they struck a deal of blood sacrifice????
It's interesting that only select Northern houses and houses of Valyrian lineages practiced the Lord's right to the first night. The Northern's practiced it to create bastards snows to be sacrificed. The Valyrians would do it to spread more Valyrian blood in order to create more dragonseeds.
Yes--it makes the Boltons even more revolting. Which is something I wasn't sure was possible. You win!!
But, silliness aside, a deal with the fire dragons and chasing the fire dragons (Valyrians and Targs) and a deal with the Others and the Ice Dragons (Boltons, Craster)--it has a symmetry to it.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.