voice, I'm pretty much with you there. I thinks all
I'm way behind, but I'll catch up. "Busy" watching football. LOL
Let me just say the third shadow was not decapitated. Instead, it wore a helm. Hard to wear a help without a head. Inside the helm, Bran sees what his father warned him about: rulers who have hidden behind paid executioners and who have forgotten what death is.
Also, we don't know for certain Ser Gregor was beheaded. I think it was a dwarf's head in the box.
He opens the visor and see only darkness - that implies no head. The black blood is also a match for Gregor, but not Ilyn Payne.
But setting aside your erroneous interpretation (I kid, I kid), what do you think of my comparison of the three stone giants?
P.s. Wish I had drafted Larry Fitzgerald this year, wow did he ever rise harder and stronger.
P.P.S. Don't answer that. Even worse derail potential.
When you have moment, I'd be curious to hear more about how you see these three stages.
I will preface this by saying that the game of thrones is not only for the iron throne but that alongside it another game is being played, a magical one.I see the stages play out in two particular veins that's how the pattern flows to me.In Robert and Jon where there is the continuation of that legacy from the house of Durrandon and Winterfell.The physical
Then there's also the legacy of the winter and summer kings i.e The NK who i think was the Last Hero and/or BTB i more believe BTB as he has a direct link to Storms end.He is currently CHs who could be anyone with the same blood and who will be Jon.The magical
I should mention that i believe the Green/cold seers have been swapping bodies in an attempt to extend their lives, kind of how V6 attempted to remove Thistle and live on in her.I think this is what's been going on they target and coerce individuals like them and they excumunicate them from their bodies so they keep the gift and live on a little longer.This is what i believe BR who really isn't BR( meaning BR plus all the others who were before) anymore is going to try to pull with Bran.Same thing i think will happen with Jon a battle for bodies.Whoever winds controls the cycle and finally the whole swapping can end and Jon and whoever or Jon alone can fade into the trees stabalizing the system.Hence me saying it started with the green/cold seers and it will end with them.Fix and accept fading.
Life,death rebirth all rolled up into a biological database of green/cold seers.Based on Bran's vision of seeing dreamers implaled on ice spires that looks similar to the dreamers in the cave impaled with roots i think there's another posse out there.
More power to you... we all probably spend too much time on the computer.
I know,i was actually at Mabon celebrations our eclectic circle had a two day retreat prior to that i had my own celebration with my home coven so i am burnt out and alas work tommorrow.I jst needed two more days to just sleep...lol
LOL. I don't want to bog down this conversation with the three shadows, but yes, the king is already accounted for in the vision at the Trident, and the king hides behind Ilyn.
I like this interp a lot.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
The difference between Petyr, and Illyn and Gregor, is that Petyr works as his own agent plotting and executing plans, while the other two are merely pawns...tools that others use.
There is a greater difference. Ilyn is the man who looms over Ned, Sansa and Arya, as he strikes off Ned's head, with Ice. Ilyn is the answer to Vary's riddle of where does power lie. He is also the unnamed specter of Ned's own admonition to Bran (pre-fall, in chapter 1 agot) about taking no pleasure from the task of killing, and why the Starks keep the older way, instead of hiding behind paid executioners.
Remember that direwolf dead in the snow. The foot of shattered antler in its throat.... the stag was unseen... this omen immediately followed Ned's admonition about paid executioners. Robert (the stag) hides (unseen) behind paid executioners (Ilyn Payne) like the Targaryen kings before him, instead of holding to the older way -- the older way Ned had just demonstrated to Bran when he heard Gared's last words. The Stag had forgotten what death was, and Ned's final words did not sway the Stag's Justice.
What is also important, is that as you said, Bran's vision occurs in realtime. Ilyn Payne is present at the Trident with Ned, Sansa, and Arya, while Gregor and Littlefinger are not. In fact, in Sansa's chapter immediately before Bran's falling dream, she described Ilyn as Bran saw him... looming... ominous... frightening... in stone grey armor, unlike the beautiful knights in his company. Sansa has Lady still, and is able to sense the threat Ilyn Payne represents. Bran sees it from his coma, in realtime, at the blue rush of the Trident (which, last time I checked, was not in Braavos).
LmL, you must've forgotten, but I already convinced you Ilyn is the third shadow over in this thread. LOL
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
The Kings executioner was not one of the choices, nor does he have any power.
No so.
The Riddle:
"May I leave you with a bit of a riddle, Lord Tyrion?" He did not wait for an answer. "In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man with his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him slay the other two. 'Do it,' says the king, 'for I am your lawful ruler.' 'Do it,' says the priest, 'for I command you in the names of the gods.' 'Do it,' says the rich man, 'and all this gold shall be yours.' So tell me—who lives and who dies?" Bowing deeply, the eunuch hurried from the common room on soft slippered feet.
Tyrion's interpretation of it:
A Clash of Kings - Tyrion II "Oh, I think not," Varys said, swirling the wine in his cup. "Power is a curious thing, my lord. Perchance you have considered the riddle I posed you that day in the inn?" "It has crossed my mind a time or two," Tyrion admitted. "The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey? It's a riddle without an answer, or rather, too many answers. All depends on the man with the sword." "And yet he is no one," Varys said. "He has neither crown nor gold nor favor of the gods, only a piece of pointed steel."
Varys' "answer":
A Clash of Kings - Tyrion II "Then these other swordsmen have the true power. Or do they? Whence came their swords? Why do they obey?" Varys smiled. "Some say knowledge is power. Some tell us that all power comes from the gods. Others say it derives from law. Yet that day on the steps of Baelor's Sept, our godly High Septon [the riddle's "priest"] and the lawful Queen Regent [the riddle's "king"] and your ever-so-knowledgeable servant [the riddle's "rich man"] were as powerless as any cobbler or cooper in the crowd. Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or . . . another?" Tyrion cocked his head sideways. "Did you mean to answer your damned riddle, or only to make my head ache worse?" Varys smiled. "Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."
At the Trident, Ned offended Ilyn Payne by calling him a butcher, and denying him the ability to see to the king's justice, as the King's Justice. At the Great Sept of Baelor, Ser Ilyn was able to right that wrong, and the soon to be shattered sword (antler) killed the direwolf.
The High Septon (the riddle's priest), the Queen Regent (the riddle's king, or the mother of the riddle's king), and Varys (the riddle's rich man, or the sphinx) were all saying not to kill Eddard:
A Game of Thrones - Arya V A thousand voices were screaming, but Arya never heard them. Prince Joffrey … no, King Joffrey … stepped out from behind the shields of his Kingsguard. "My mother bids me let Lord Eddard take the black, and Lady Sansa has begged mercy for her father." He looked straight at Sansa then, and smiled, and for a moment Arya thought that the gods had heard her prayer, until Joffrey turned back to the crowd and said, "But they have the soft hearts of women. So long as I am your king, treason shall never go unpunished. Ser Ilyn, bring me his head!" The crowd roared, and Arya felt the statue of Baelor rock as they surged against it. The High Septon clutched at the king's cape, and Varys came rushing over waving his arms, and even the queen was saying something to him, but Joffrey shook his head. Lords and knights moved aside as he stepped through, tall and fleshless, a skeleton in iron mail, the King's Justice. Dimly, as if from far off, Arya heard her sister scream. Sansa had fallen to her knees, sobbing hysterically. Ser Ilyn Payne climbed the steps of the pulpit.
Tyrion makes the same point:
A Clash of Kings - Tyrion I "Crowns do queer things to the heads beneath them," Tyrion agreed. "This business with Eddard Stark . . . Joffrey's work?" The queen grimaced. "He was instructed to pardon Stark, to allow him to take the black. The man would have been out of our way forever, and we might have made peace with that son of his, but Joff took it upon himself to give the mob a better show. What was I to do? He called for Lord Eddard's head in front of half the city. And Janos Slynt and Ser Ilyn went ahead blithely and shortened the man without a word from me!" Her hand tightened into a fist. "The High Septon claims we profaned Baelor's Sept with blood, after lying to him about our intent."
And:
A Clash of Kings - Tyrion II Lord Janos roared. "Small chance of that!" "One would think," Tyrion said, "but life does take queer turns. Consider Eddard Stark, my lord. I don't suppose he ever imagined his life would end on the steps of Baelor's Sept." "There were damn few as did," Lord Janos allowed, chuckling.
And yup, you guessed it, I see Janos Slynt as yet another sellsword.
Still, the loss of the antler is not what killed the stag.
I must again respectfully disagree:
A Game of Thrones - Bran I Father frowned. "This is only a dead animal, Jory," he said. Yet he seemed troubled. Snow crunched under his boots as he moved around the body. "Do we know what killed her?" "There's something in the throat," Robb told him, proud to have found the answer before his father even asked. "There, just under the jaw." His father knelt and groped under the beast's head with his hand. He gave a yank and held it up for all to see. A foot of shattered antler, tines snapped off, all wet with blood.
Remember that direwolf dead in the snow. The foot of shattered antler in its throat.... the stag was unseen... this omen immediately followed Ned's admonition about paid executioners. Robert (the stag) hides (unseen) behind paid executioners (Ilyn Payne) like the Targaryen kings before him, instead of holding to the older way -- the older way Ned had just demonstrated to Bran when he heard Gared's last words. The Stag had forgotten what death was, and Ned's final words did not sway the Stag's Justice.
Again i like this and i especially like how your statement about Robert forgetting the old ways because on two occassions Ned spoke to Robert as if this was the case.The first being with Lady
Ned stood, gently disengaging himself from Sansa’s grasp. All the weariness of the past four days had returned to him. “Do it yourself then, Robert,” he said in a voice cold and sharp as steel. “At least have the courage to do it yourself.”
And the second ofcourse when he okayed the hit on Dany.Ned told him to swing the sword himself,look into her eyes here her last words and with that i just got a terrible thought when it came to Lyanna and Ned.
Ned told him to swing the sword himself,look into her eyes here her last words and with that i just got a terrible thought when it came to Lyanna and Ned.
Exactly. It isn't a terrible thought, it's a GRRM thought. LOL
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Ned told him to swing the sword himself,look into her eyes here her last words and with that i just got a terrible thought when it came to Lyanna and Ned.
Exactly. It isn't a terrible thought, it's a GRRM thought. LOL
If she was in a bad state I could see her asking Ned to take her out.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
The High Septon (the riddle's priest), the Queen Regent (the riddle's king, or the mother of the riddle's king), and Varys (the riddle's rich man, or the sphinx) were all saying not to kill Eddard:
Illyn Payne is the sellsword, but who does he follow? He follows where he believes power lies and at that time he listened to Joffrey.
Exactly, Ilyn chose who to listen to, and he chose the boy-king. Even Varys does not consider Joffrey the "king" in the riddle.
If we look at that idea, of power residing where men believe it resides, then we are presented with the answer. The sellsword has the power, because he is the one who chooses where power resides. We see this later with the Warrior's Sons, as they too are sellswords, but instead of gold, they are paid in redemption and piety. They belief the priest has the power to authorize their swords. The Unsullied are another example, as they are literally bought and sold, and they believe power resides in the rich man who buys them.
Ilyn chose to listen to the boy's voice telling him what he already wanted to do, in spite of it defiling the Sept, and in spite of the king (Cersei), the priest (High Septon), and rich man (Varys). In the end, the sellsword just did what he wanted, and the true power resides in the sword, and the man (or woman) who wields it.
Ilyn Payne was appointed by Robert Baratheon, and he is the foot of shattered antler.
Sorry to not give a long detailed answer, but I really do have to get to bed.
LOL! That's ok. We've all been there
Edit: (more detail) Ned looms over Bran like a giant while teaching him about Ilyn Payne:
But you mistake me. The question was not why the man had to die, but why I must do it
Bran had no answer for that. “King Robert has a headsman,” he said, uncertainly.
He does,”his father admitted. “As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die."
Immediately following this lesson, Jon interrupts them because he and Robb found something...
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Exactly, Ilyn chose who to listen to, and he chose the boy-king. Even Varys does not consider Joffrey the "king" in the riddle.
If we look at that idea, of power residing where men believe it resides, then we are presented with the answer. The sellsword has the power, because he is the one who chooses where power resides. We see this later with the Warrior's Sons, as they too are sellswords, but instead of gold, they are paid in redemption and piety. They belief the priest has the power to authorize their swords. The Unsullied are another example, as they are literally bought and sold, and they believe power resides in the rich man who buys them.
Ilyn chose to listen to the boy's voice telling him what he already wanted to do, in spite of it defiling the Sept, and in spite of the king (Cersei), the priest (High Septon), and rich man (Varys). In the end, the sellsword just did what he wanted, and the true power resides in the sword, and the man (or woman) who wields it.
Ilyn Payne was appointed by Robert Baratheon, and he is the foot of shattered antler.
Edit: (more detail) Ned looms over Bran like a giant while teaching him about Ilyn Payne:
But you mistake me. The question was not why the man had to die, but why I must do it
I guess, interesting interpretation of the symbolism, and people do see multiple meanings.
At least you are kinder on this forum. I am getting absolutely killed over on westeros.org. They are so mean! LOL Please feel sorry for me!
LOL! I do! They can be rabid at times. We've all been there too, Melifeather. Keep your chin up!
And, just so you know, I wasn't trying to push my interp on you, I was just explaining it. I don't care for Catelyn much, and I don't credit her hardly anything, ever, but I think she was right about the stag omen... and mayhaps about Ashara+Ned too.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
LOL! I do! They can be rabid at times. We've all been there too, Melifeather. Keep your chin up!
And, just so you know, I wasn't trying to push my interp on you, I was just explaining it. I don't care for Catelyn much, and I don't credit her hardly anything, ever, but I think she was right about the stag omen... and mayhaps about Ashara+Ned too.
Hey, thanks for the reality check!
That's the nature of symbolism. More than one interpretation may very well be appropriate. It's actually a tribute to the genius of GRRM to be able to think of something that can be understood so many ways.
I think Ned and Ashara did love each other, but I think Ashara was raped by Aerys to create Daenerys. We shall see if GRRM finishes all the stories.
If Ashara does turn out to be Daenerys mother, then I think I would be also correct in my assumption that Septa Mordane is Rhaella. I'm thinking they did a switcheroo, but that would mean Ashara died giving birth to Dany. Although, on second thought, maybe Viserys was not allowed to see his "mother" on Dragonstone and was told she died so that Ashara could slip away?
I never heard the Ashara/Aerys equates Dany.I actually like the logistics of it.I believe I found the quote that points to Dany actually arriving on Dragonstone from somewhere else besides kingslanding and given the work that FFR did along with the lemons fiasco I"m 80% sure Dany came from Dorne.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"