Kings of Ice and Fire

Wow, for once we are the same page. Remember also that Robert is "the Usurper." The original "usurper" was of course the Blood Betrayer himself, the Bloodstone Emperor. Who I think is Azor Ahai, and i think it was either AA himself or his son who became the LH and then the NK. Stannis shows us the example of an AA figure turning to a NK figure. I think all the Baratheons are showing us things about the ancient greenseers, although I don't know if they are three separate people or transformation processes, or if they are stages in one person's life. But setting that aside, let's talk Bobby B.

We know he's a horned god and a giant when he dons his antlered helm. I have been identifying him with a frozen greenseer, for a few of the reasons you mention. His brother is a Stark, and he was engaged to the blue rose. I hadn't noticed then 'now that I'm king I'm dead' line, but there is a line when Ned is in the dungeons:



This idea is laid out when Bobby first comes to WF:



So, "look at us Ned, gods!" is one of those lines that secretly spans the end of one sentence and the beginning of another (a trick Martin likes to use, and he does it with chapter breaks also). They are both buried. They both go down into the crypts. Then WF is Robert's. A frozen horned god, is what I see.

Another clue is the choking & rattling laughter. There a lot of it when Ned and Robert go down into the crypts, and more every time Robert laughs. Coldhands, who I am damn sure is a frozen skinchanger or greenseer, and undead of course, has a rattling voice and the scarf seems to be covering some kind of neck wound (speculation of course). Renly has his throat cut as well. I think that's a thing. They are sacrificed stags (paging wolfmaid7 to the front desk). The rattling laughter of Robert seems to offend the stone kings on their dark thrones.

Have you picked up on that imagery?

Who knows how far back "the Usurper" archetype goes. I think the WB gave us a bit more world building and backstory for Planetos at large with the BSE, but contend the tale of the NK is the more pertinent.

Same page indeed! :::
Another good one.
I definitely agree about the subliminal sentence structure. I've noted it myself. Chapter breaks as well... and chapter titles.

I completely agree that we see a king (imo, a stand-in for the NK) descend into the underworld (Nightfort?) with a Stark "brother"....who, I would add... has been bound to his will. Robert commanded Ned, and Ned knelt.

While I agree about the horned god, I'm not seeing horned gods as being one and the same as our greenseers and greenmen. There are parallels, like the color green. And antlery. But I am not ready to take the leap and name the greenseers as the originators of this particular brand of Other corruption. wolfmaid7 will surely agree with you, but I'm of a different mind on this one.


Ned makes this quite explicit, actually: "They say it grows so cold up here in winter that a man's laughter freezes in his throat and chokes him to death," Ned said evenly. "Perhaps that is why the Starks have so little humor."

Coldhands is certainly cold, but I'd say he's not quite frozen. While wight'ish, he is no wight. I see him as remaining alive because he swore a vow, as opposed to being magicked back to life.

Unlike other undead examples, he seems to have retained his consciousness/soul.


Makes sense.

 Agreed.

I don't know if i agree with Illyn Payne as indirectly associated with the horned moon.That one is a bit off the mark.....He isn't at all ,no more than Jamie is in that same scene.What they were doing is associated with the horned moon yes...Dancing,battle which they were doing and also sex.

As i said before sometimes not every phrase is 'something' mysterious if there's anything interesting about Ilyn it is in what he represents and we see that with Jamie when he devulges what happen between him and Cersie.Payne is a great silent confessor as he is unable to disclose anything and everthing he has seen,heard or told in the past 15yrs.

I'm not saying Payne in himself is meaningless i'm saying there's noway he's related to a horned god why not include Jamie as well? As i said the symbol of the horned moon in respect to what they are doing yes for sure and we see a difference in how the moon is referenced with Bran's chapter in dance ;referring to it as sickled which is death vs horned which is what symbolizes warriors and in the context of what Jamie and Payne are doing it fits.

m not saying Illyn Payne isn't important the dude has some macabre vibe around him that's for sure.His connection with the sword yeah i think soething will come of that.What i don't know.

You get know arguement that George has several characters having dual or even more roles of an archetype but the archetypes themselves have been done he isn't creating anything new with that respect just creatively using them to suit the needs of the story and the world building.If they were new,we wouldn't recognize them from myths now would we? 

Not saying the horned moon and dancing isn't important it is another imo theme building aspect of the story .

Now something you did there i just don't get and to me that istwisting things a bit too much. The horned moon wasn't dancing,"they were dancing" engaged in battle beneath it.George repeatedly associates dancing and fighting.That's one thing that has been consistent.So when you say "dancing horned moon" you state something that isn't there and you changed the meaning.

Its the same with fire which is seen as alive and exhibiting human characteristics as told by characters.So how you got firery "beings" out of that? Fire is being liken unto Dancers.Its not beings, its the flames themselves.That's what she's embracing "it" is alive. I wouldn't have a problem with the bolded,if that was what the text said or alluded to.But i see no dancing horned moon,because the text didn't say that.It said two warriors were dancing beneath it.And what it did with regads to the flames is personify it for Dany as somethignshe neded to embrace as an aspect.

So, it's the horny moon. LOL

Ilyn Payne the silent as stone Stranger: a quiet shadow, wielding Ice, who looms over Ned and his children like a giant ever since Ned carried out "the king's justice" in the first chapter (Bran I AGOT)... Gared, a black brother who fled the Others' with voices that are like the mocking crack of ice, "voices and laughter sharp as icicles", and their cold butchery, is beheaded (pierced in the neck) by Ned in the Stag King's own name. Ned then comes upon a direwolf that has been killed by a foot of shattered sword antler that had pierced its neck. Ned, who doesn't believe in omens (not the sharpest Needle in the shed), then denies the Stag King's Justice (SKJ) the opportunity to kill a direwolf at the Trident, Lady, and instead does it himself, because he considers the SKJ a (cold?) "butcher". Ned's own lady-wolf daughter then betrays him to the very cold-lion queen that commands the cold butcher (Ilyn is the Lion's Tooth). (The same queen who's husband "soon forgets what death is" because he has given his soul to his queen and hides behind paid executioners).

Ilyn Payne, the Stranger in armor made of silent stone, will not be denied his wolf pelt for long, of course. The Stag will Kill the Direwolf. And as surely as the (Night's?) King's Justice brought Ser Waymar Royce to his knees, Ned will plead with the Stag King's paid executioner, from his own knees. The Stag will pierce Ned's neck with the same antler sword that removed Gared's head, in the name of House Baratheon.

Is that feeling better?

So, now ask yourself, was Ilyn Payne de-tongued? Or did his laughter simply freeze in his throat?

Is there a difference?


Nope. It is quite significant. And both she-wolves make note of it: the one executed in the Stag's name, and the one driven away, as their direwolf father pleaded with the King.

Ice is not only replaced. It's shattered.

A Stark in the Long Night, his sword shatters, then is replaced by one the Others cannot stand against. Eventually House Stark loses this sword, and it is replaced with a replica. A Stark in King's Landing (how much foreshadowing is that, huh? The "King's" "Landing" and Winter is coming) sword shatters, is replaced by a replica blade.


Yeah. I'm definitely with ya on that one.


Sansa feels his vibe as Bran sees him looming over them at the Trident. He is the giant made of stone.

I'm finding it quite amusing that all three of us read a different stone giant, but like Ilyn Payne, the Stone Giant of Bravos is part of the same symbolism - the moon, post impact, sending flaming skull / black bloodstone meteors to the earth. I even mentioned the Stone Giant of Bravos in my comment above.

All three fit to a certain extent, because all three share common symbolism, because all three are part of the same archetype, as I was saying above.

Petyr's transition from Stone Head of a Giant to the very verbose Mockingbird is surely significant. A mockingbird has some common symbolism with sirens and mermaids, in that they use their voice to deceive and lure travelers into a trap. And certainly Petyr acts this way, so we can conclude that George is using this connotation.

Think of the swan maidens that Hukko the Andal killed. The courtesans of Bravos aren't as malicious, but they are floating moon maidens (look at their names!). The mermaid symbolizes the drowned goddess, the sea dragon rising from the depths. That's the moon meteor which drowned in the ocean and became the drowned fire of the drowned god / goddess.

A mermaid is a goddess who goes swimming. The flaming bleeding stone heads drown in the sea, and a transformation happens. The result is the mockingbird... which is like a mermaid. So even though Petyr is male, I think that's his symbolism. Sam is the same - he's the black leviathan (the sea dragon) who rises from the depths, just as he does when the weirwood tries to pull the moon down into the depths of the well and Sam emerges as the "thing in the night" and the flops around in a pool of moonlight. That's also why Sam has a moon face four times - he's the black leviathan, which is a moon meteor - but specifically, it represents what comes out of the ocean afterward. That has something to do with drowned fire.

The Ironborn / Drowned God emerged from the sea carrying either a burning brand or the fire of the sea dragon, depending on the version of the story. Another says the Grey King possessed the sea dragon's fire - all different versions of the same story. And this in turn is reflected in the "foul, black, soul drinking" weapons that the ancient Ironborn are said to have wielded under the salt and rock kings (with their black iron crown). The moon meteors are black, and drink the light, and Lightbringer, made from a black meteor, drank Nissa's blood and soul. The Dornishman's black steel (his wife) drinks blood as well. It's all the same idea. None of this reflects well on Petyr Baelish... he's definitely a soul suck.

Petyr also plays out the Lightbringer forging / two moons pattern with Lysa and Sansa when they land on the fingers, fwiw.

If you've read any of my stuff you know that I see black blood as a very important symbol. It reflects the transformation of a being transformed by fire (think again of the rain is dragonglass and black blood from the Doom). Gregor's headless body oozing black blood fits my interp of him as representing the moon, and all of our potential candidates to be "the stone giant looming over them." Practically speaking, black blood also comes from people who have been poisoned, but that's also a connotation of the moons impregnation by the dragon comet. Bloodstone (heliotrope) has strong connotations of healing and specifically drawing out poison, but the bloodstone emperor inverts everything. Instead of a sun mirror (one definition of "heliotrope"), it's a sun drinker. Instead of drawing out poison, it poisons. Again, consider Oberyn the sun warrior's poison spear - the iron tip glistens black and oily with poison - a direct call out to the oily black stone, which are moon meteors. That's a black oily poisoned sun spear, destined to stab the moon in the chest and poison it's blood black.

Melisandra, you've noticed the common symbolism between the NW and the moon meteors, and this is why George has made it so that people say the NW has black blood. I for on think the original NW were all undead, like CH, and likely killed / resurrected with fire magic. They may well have wielded black weapons as well.