Some of you remember the last big discussion about canon v. semi-canon. When I pressed the case over at W that "Lyanna at the ToJ = not canon" I ended up writing to GRRM about it. The results have been discussed and his response is in my signature here. Lyanna being at the ToJ is not canon, and the app is only semi-canon. Ran had to demote the app from the Referencing and Canon page from canon to semi-canon on the wiki.
I wrote GRRM again and asked about the World Book. 5 months later, he has responded.
The World Book is NOT "Canon" although it's "close." And it's full of intentional mistakes (which we already knew, but it's important to clarify). We of course have no way of knowing which of the errors are intentional or not until the books at published, and as many of us here have already argued, the World Book should not be used as a canon source.
Sorry Ran. The WB needs to be demoted to semi-canon, according to this new SSM.
Good work Weasel Pie I always figured you had to include the biases of the Maesters even when they are writing books for our world. I'll be sure to save this for the gray sheep over at Westeros.org
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Good work Weasel Pie I always figured you had to include the biases of the Maesters even when they are writing books for our world. I'll be sure to save this for the gray sheep over at Westeros.org
Logical readers realized that GRRM et al were being tricksy with the "biased Maester POV" but that didn't stop other people from claiming every part of the WB was canon/not subject to change when the novels are all published.
Of course certain people had a ve$ted intere$t in repre$enting the World Book as canon. Heh.
...and the *biased Maester POV* was this dipshit excuse to justify the shoddy writing by the idiot couple from Sweden.
WTF ever happened to *Why don´t we do a companion encyclopedia once the cycle is finished ?* ?
Sometimes I wonder if Elio and Linda do know that RLJ is incorrect, but in some weird fashion they think they are helping GRRM by promoting it as factual? I don't know...maybe I am giving them too much credit.
Somewhere, I have screenshots to the forum that existed before Westeros was made. There, Ran and others discussed which theories were worth including at the Citadel, and RLJ was at the forefront. The articles at the Citadel are OLD and haven't been well updated. Many of the opinions in those essays made their way into the wiki as if they were quotes from the books.
So I think at a point in time, they did believe RLJ 100%. I'm not so sure anymore - I don't think they know for sure either way. Because there's no way that GRRM would allow them to be the ones to reveal a secret through years of promotion on their own forum etc.
Don´t disregard that GRRM might change the entire theory just out of spite.
*Nobody second-guesses my dearest plot secrets ! Nobody !!*
But by then the televised adaptation would already be old news!
Strictly speaking, we would be talking about a companion encyclopedia for the novelization of the TV show.
Shit...- who the fuck would want to buy that ?
Strictly speaking? I think what you're doing is simply 'speaking'. LOL
A friend and I were talking about GRRM a while back over a few brews. He's a filmmaker and didn't know GRRM had a screenwriting background, but was making the point that GRRM is now essentially writing fan fiction based on a television show, and how it's a very unique situation.
At first I was arguing against his points, but once I brought up GRRM's screenwriting and television credentials, I basically eroded what little ground I had. I lost the tilt.
Since, I've begun wondering if GRRM's course has been somewhat intentional. What author would allow a mega-adaptation of an incomplete magnum opus? The man doesn't act like someone who has yet to reach an important goal. And I don't mean to sound cynical or accusatory. I think it bespeaks a very modern and liberal brand of artistry. Mixed media on a grand scale.
Or, he just sold out. Lol
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
This should be fun. I seem to recall that Ran went out of his way to bring up the canonness of the WB after your not canon threads at GRRM'S next con... and submitted the SSM himself about that answer. I'm not saying he's lying but for GRRM to turn around what, like 5 months later? And say something other than what Ran said he said about the very same subject seems odd... or at least that Ran simply didn't stress the right words and intentions as I remember he kept focusing on the word "authoritative" which he thought meant it was just as canon as the books. Should be interesting whether he engages in this one seeing as he's doubly invested in the question.
But really, people should understand that ASOIAF canon is... ASOIAF. Those are the books that comprise the series because that is the series. Not the app. Not the WB. Not the show. Really it seems fairly easy to figure out what's canon, but as has been pointed out, people have vested interest in a lot of the not canon stuff as it, shockingly I know, supports their own theories. And I'm speaking honestly, but really when was the last time any of us repeatedly referenced the app or WB as sources? Oh every now and then we'll use them, but overwhelmingly when we provide evidence for our theories we do use what the books actually say as our sources... which is what should be done
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Sometimes I wonder if Elio and Linda do know that RLJ is incorrect, but in some weird fashion they think they are helping GRRM by promoting it as factual? I don't know...maybe I am giving them too much credit.
I've wondered this too, but recent comments made in interviews make it clear that Elio and Linda have no clue. They are 100% on board with RLJ, and don't even really consider it a "theory" anymore. As far as they're concerned, the question is no longer "who are Jon's parents," but... how did it happen, and why? Were they married? Was it polygamy? Etc. They really just have no idea...
Don't think so. He's said he won't change the solution, and he won't. He's gone too far with it now, anyway. Thing is, it was never R+L to begin with. And his superfans have never figured that out.
Sometimes I think one reason he's been slow with these books is that he's so disappointed with the way "RLJ" has taken on a life of its own.
"Anticlimax is, of course, the warp and way of things. Real life seldom structures a decent denouement." - Martin Silenus
Since, I've begun wondering if GRRM's course has been somewhat intentional. What author would allow a mega-adaptation of an incomplete magnum opus? The man doesn't act like someone who has yet to reach an important goal. And I don't mean to sound cynical or accusatory. I think it bespeaks a very modern and liberal brand of artistry. Mixed media on a grand scale.
On the other hand, I think he sold the books precisely to figure out what fans wanted. He's said he hasn't checked any forums in years (I call bullshit) but Game of Thrones has given him a huge feedback to see what the fans want to see more of and what the fans like. GRRM has come right out and said that he writes books because he makes money off of them and does this for the money. He says he's sticking to "his" story, but at the same time a guy who's got money on his mind will always fit his work to that perspective, much like D&D sacrifice plot and logic if it will garner them ratings as that's what HBO wants.
And I won't lie, it's crossed my mind many times that that's the real delay to WOW: the fan reaction to the show. The fans have overwhelmingly loved the game of thrones. And the show, witnessing that reaction, has developed huge side plots and spent time filming these extra scenes to come the fans more of that. Political intrigue and realism is very in right now... and GRRM's at the point of his story where the fantasy-ness of ASOIAF to going to overwhelm that story as he's come to the point where the Others are supposed to be invading. He's at the point where he's actually supposed to be telling a fantasy story and I'm wondering if he's balking a bit trying to figure out how to write more game of thrones stuff into this story.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Weirdly, Ran did make a big deal out of all of that, but did NOT change the Referencing and Canon page on the wiki to reflect that.
Well of course not. It sounded, at least on the surface level, that his work was valid. And it's not to say that it's not totally invalid as 95% of the World Book will likely remain as true source material as GRRM simply will never cover some of those topics in ASOIAF and therefore they'll be the only information about them, but at the same time, it's still not part of the series. Saying that the books are supreme canon or whatever, just proves that the WB isn't. No matter what gets said about the canonness of the book after that, that it's authoritative or whatever, means it's not part of the actual canon.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I seem to recall that Ran went out of his way to bring up the canonness of the WB after your not canon threads at GRRM'S next con... and submitted the SSM himself about that answer
Yes, though I'm not in the mood to dig too far into what he said back then. Although Mel may have a fresher memory of the whole "supreme canon" as a new term Ran used after the arguments at W and the con in Sweden. Weirdly, Ran did make a big deal out of all of that, but did NOT change the Referencing and Canon page on the wiki to reflect that.
Supreme canon. LOL.
"Anticlimax is, of course, the warp and way of things. Real life seldom structures a decent denouement." - Martin Silenus
Of course certain people had a ve$ted intere$t in repre$enting the World Book as canon.
I can't decipher your meaning here.
Oh bollocks the sarcasm button is stuck again. Any help LmL ?
Seems pretty clear to me: RaLinda want the WB to be canon so it sells more. Shit, they really do need the money. Ever seen the drapes that go for curtains in their basement dwelling ?
Since, I've begun wondering if GRRM's course has been somewhat intentional. What author would allow a mega-adaptation of an incomplete magnum opus? The man doesn't act like someone who has yet to reach an important goal. And I don't mean to sound cynical or accusatory. I think it bespeaks a very modern and liberal brand of artistry. Mixed media on a grand scale.
On the other hand, I think he sold the books precisely to figure out what fans wanted. He's said he hasn't checked any forums in years (I call bullshit) but Game of Thrones has given him a huge feedback to see what the fans want to see more of and what the fans like. GRRM has come right out and said that he writes books because he makes money off of them and does this for the money. He says he's sticking to "his" story, but at the same time a guy who's got money on his mind will always fit his work to that perspective, much like D&D sacrifice plot and logic if it will garner them ratings as that's what HBO wants.
And I won't lie, it's crossed my mind many times that that's the real delay to WOW: the fan reaction to the show. The fans have overwhelmingly loved the game of thrones. And the show, witnessing that reaction, has developed huge side plots and spent time filming these extra scenes to come the fans more of that. Political intrigue and realism is very in right now... and GRRM's at the point of his story where the fantasy-ness of ASOIAF to going to overwhelm that story as he's come to the point where the Others are supposed to be invading. He's at the point where he's actually supposed to be telling a fantasy story and I'm wondering if he's balking a bit trying to figure out how to write more game of thrones stuff into this story.
I think all of this plays into his sluggishness, but the basic, underlying driver is the one he freely admitted to when he pitched the cycle the the publisher over 20 years ago: He simply is not very good at finishing the things he starts. He gets bored by that. And quite frankly, isn´t that what have been seeing the last 10 years. The publishers went ahead with the deal anyway.