Bonding and Fracturing of Consciousness and Identity
Apr 1, 2016 16:35:25 GMT
whitewolfstark likes this
Post by voice on Apr 1, 2016 16:35:25 GMT
Hi folks, I needed a way to easily cite this post from the W, and I thought it might be long enough for its own OP. Would love to hear your thoughts!
Quote from ladybarbrey in SlyWren's old Death to Dawn thread at the W:
[My response]
Lots of interesting stuff here. I think it all comes down to consciousness, and different, unique ways (powers) of manipulating, exploiting, eradicating, and abandoning consciousness.
There is the 'Self' contained within one's sense of consciousness. Then there is the 'Biological Self'. Identical twins, for example, have the same genetic/biological self, yet distinct identities due to their individual consciousnesses.
I think Skinchanging is a melding of Two distinct and conscious Selves.
I see Other necromancy and just that: necromancy (if you are talking about wights).
If we are considering the Others/ww's, then I think they are an example of multiple, individual, Human Consciousnesses (and First Men consciousnesses, specifically), inhabiting inhuman magical (but nearly-biological) Selves made of ice. They have bones and blood. They have eyes, hands, legs, feet, and something akin to vocal cords. Their speech apparatus conveys a voice with the timbre of cracking ice on a frozen lake. This again points to a real and tangible body. Rather than being biologically carbon-based, like Men, they are somehow magically ice-based, but they are real bodies nonetheless. I make this distinction because there are several other identities you bring up that do not have bodies, or, do not have bodies of their own. The Others have bodies of their own. They even have clothes, or at least, armor. They seem Human in every way, except their biology - or lack thereof.
If we are talking about wights, they are strangely dissimilar from their blue-eyed brethren. First and foremost, they retain human biology. Their blood has been freeze-dried, but it is nonetheless blood, and not ice. They display all the characteristics of human bodies that have recently died, and been frozen. (Remember the shock of cold V6 feels when "true death" comes.) So, in short, wights are frozen, dead, meat. While they are clearly animate, they do not demonstrate any sense of "Self" nor individual consciousness. It may well be that there is some echoes of memory, frozen upon their synaptic alignments, but it remains to be seen if they are truly cognizant creatures. Clearly, something cognizant is controlling and guiding them, but they, in and of themselves, seem more like puppets. It is my belief that Night's King and his Queen are the ones pulling the strings. I think the 13th LC sought to kill the 997th.
R'hllorist resurrections remain to be proven, in my opinion, that they were indeed caused by R'hllor. Bodies rising from the dead is hardly rare anymore in the series. And with the "old powers awakening" it is hard to say if recovering alcoholic Thoros actually resurrected Beric, or if it was caused by his faith, or it was cause by his god, or if it was a fluke or spontaneous event. Whatever the mystery is behind Beric, it explains Cat. In any case, there was no death to pay for Beric's life, or else everyone who died could buy their life back with their own death, and that would make no sense. Beric seems special to me, and breaks MMD's rule. Considering MMD studied shadowbinding, like Mel, and Thoros did not, I would say that Beric's life has nothing to do with shadowbinding, nor the 'only death may pay for life' stipulation.
Back to what Beric and Cat are, exactly, I think they each demonstrate a functioning biological body, and because of that, memories of the self (like the frozen memories of wights), but no longer possess their own consciousness-derived Selves. I think spirit and consciousness can be seen as one and the same: a living, natural manifestation of identity. Each death bring a little brain decay, for Beric and Cat. They are functioning biological meat, bereft of the living consciousness/Self.
Rhaego's soul, or, in my interp, his Conscious Self, left his body when he was stillborn. He was a baby. Sure he had dragon blood, but he was just a kid. The dragons have zero humanity, and Rhaegal demonstrates nothing of Rhaego, in my opinion.
Shadow binding is an interesting one. Well, they all are, of course. But shadowbinding is a lot like horcruxing, in my opinion. A person fragments their own Consciousness, and encapsulates a fragment of the Self by having sex with a shadowbinder. The act of sex, itself, (unlike horcruxes) seems to produce the encapsulation. The shadowbinder provides the shadow, in my opinion, from her very womb (I'm thinking this precludes men from becoming shadowbinders). In her womb, the shadowbinder binds the Consciousness Fragment, delivered via semen, apparently, to a Shadow. Rather than inhuman sidhe made of ice (I'm *winking* at you, JNR lol), we have ourselves a human consciousness fragment made of shadow. Stannis' intent to murder Renly is the fragment he delivered, and Mel delivered the shadow of it.
Stannis seems to understand all of this. He remembers doing the deed, almost. It was a part of himself that did it, at least, and he knows that. He even dreams of it.
Coldhands, in my opinion, is the opposite of Beric and LS. His body is a corpse, yet, his Consciouss Self remains in it. Cold seems to have preserved him, and I think if he crossed south of the Wall, he would die. He's been killed already, "long ago" by Leaf's account, yet lives. He, in my opinion, is the only example of a truly living corpse in the novels (but there are a few individuals who come pretty close). Or, at least, he is the only corpse that has retained it's natural, Consciousness-derived Self. I think his Elk is just a loyal beast of burden.
I'm open to the idea the cotf resurrected Coldhands somehow, but I think it unlikely. We've yet to see anyone with greenpowers resurrect anybody. I think BR himself is even less likely, as he's old, but not old enough by Leaf's frame of reference to qualify her statement that, "they killed him long ago."
Your dwindling comparison of Stannis to Beric is very apt, but I would argue they are dwindling due to different causes. Stannis is fragmenting his Conscious Self, Beric's Conscious Self is long gone, imo. Stannis is dwindling due to very-human guilt, and very sorcerous manipulation. Beric was dwindling due to no longer having his Conscious Self in his body (unlike Coldhands), and instead, only retaining memories of it.
Skinchanging 'remnants' (cool term by the way) is also very apt. I call them artifacts. But, both terms feel a little off the mark to me. When Bran slips into Summer's skin, he is a part of Summer's living, natural Conscious Self. The two of them have bonded with each other. It is a mutual relationship. And, I would argue that Bran demonstrates evidence of Summer being a part of his Consciousness, inside of his Bran-skin, from the time Gared is executed in the first chapter. Bran begins to feel colder, even though the wind has stopped, and the sun is higher in the sky. It is my interpretation that is due to Summer's Consciousness already merging with his own. The "wordless cry of dismay" drives the point home, once he has the pup in hand. If we imagine this as a two-way street, it seems perfectly reasonable that Summer will retain some sense of Bran's Conscious Self, even if Bran died today.
In GRRM's universe, he gives further personification to this "sense" and indeed makes it a very literal process in Varamyr's prologue. Varamyr dies, floats around, and finds refuge in One-Eye's body. One Eye, however, unlike V6, is still inhabiting the body he was born with. I think that matters. And I think this is the reason that V6's consciousness, though ever-present, fades in perspective as One Eye's dominance over his own Conscious Self grows. V6 can live as a part of One Eye's mind, but he, himself, is no longer alive. His body died, like Coldhands' body. But, unlike Coldhands, he is not the dominant member of the body he is now inhabiting. One Eye is a wolf, and was loyal to V6, but is still and individual. Coldhands does not have that problem, and, what's more, I believe he is inhabiting the body he was born with. It might be dead, but it's still his own.
When Bran finds he is "not alone" inside of the Raven's Consciousness, he knows he is there with a girl, a cotf girl, as it happens. I think he would find V6 inside of One Eye in the same fashion. And, if Bran died, I think a fellow skinchanger would find the "sweet summer child" there inside of Summer.
Qyburn's monster is a whole other beast, but, if that is truly the Mountain's body, and the Mountain's head was truly sent to Dorne, then it appears Coldhands is not the only Conscious Self inhabiting a corpse. I think it's more likely that Qyburn has suspended the Mountain's death, and that the head shipped to Dorne was that of an unfortunate dwarf (gained from Cersei's hunt for the valonqar).
Rather than lump these individuals together, and explain them all under the umbrella of greenseeing, or the skinchanging ability, I'd rather marvel at and study their uniqueness. Each seems to be a lesson on identity.
Theon almost warrants a spot on this list, poor guy. LOL
Quote from ladybarbrey in SlyWren's old Death to Dawn thread at the W:
To me skinchanging is still a bit of a mystery though I've been saying for some time that I suspect it is the same magic power (though with use of different elemental ingedients) at base for the Other necromancy, the Rhllor resurrection, Rhaego's soul transference to the dragons, the shadow binding, and the more familiar skinchanging we see in the books.
Coldhands too might be a case in point. Is BR skinchanging him and the elk sumultaneously to bring the children or did BR resurrect a skinchanger? I think it's the latter as well, LmL, but if so did BR use his own life and blood and soul for that resurrection or did he sacrifice someone else? Is this an anomaly because BR does have Targ blood - fire activates better but the host is consumed faster?
The Beric resurrection is the one that makes the least sense to me - it's like Beric keeps skinchanging his own dead body and losing part of his soul every time.
I'm also not clear on the role of shadows that shadow binders use. It's like they are bits of captured life force, Stannis's seed and his soul - the fallout? -as we watch Stannis dwindle down similar to Beric.
I am also very interested in skinchanging 'remnants' and how they might become ghosts in a paricularly Westerosi manner, attached to an animal host, but when that animal host is skinchanged in turn they leave an imprint on the new skinchanger.
Are these soul remnants - manifesting as shadows or alien consciousness or ghosts -something Qyburn might be using in his Frankenstein resurrection.
I do think with what we know now that a logical working theory, within the parameters of evidence of the five books, might be deduced. Has anyone tried, do you know?
Coldhands too might be a case in point. Is BR skinchanging him and the elk sumultaneously to bring the children or did BR resurrect a skinchanger? I think it's the latter as well, LmL, but if so did BR use his own life and blood and soul for that resurrection or did he sacrifice someone else? Is this an anomaly because BR does have Targ blood - fire activates better but the host is consumed faster?
The Beric resurrection is the one that makes the least sense to me - it's like Beric keeps skinchanging his own dead body and losing part of his soul every time.
I'm also not clear on the role of shadows that shadow binders use. It's like they are bits of captured life force, Stannis's seed and his soul - the fallout? -as we watch Stannis dwindle down similar to Beric.
I am also very interested in skinchanging 'remnants' and how they might become ghosts in a paricularly Westerosi manner, attached to an animal host, but when that animal host is skinchanged in turn they leave an imprint on the new skinchanger.
Are these soul remnants - manifesting as shadows or alien consciousness or ghosts -something Qyburn might be using in his Frankenstein resurrection.
I do think with what we know now that a logical working theory, within the parameters of evidence of the five books, might be deduced. Has anyone tried, do you know?
[My response]
Lots of interesting stuff here. I think it all comes down to consciousness, and different, unique ways (powers) of manipulating, exploiting, eradicating, and abandoning consciousness.
There is the 'Self' contained within one's sense of consciousness. Then there is the 'Biological Self'. Identical twins, for example, have the same genetic/biological self, yet distinct identities due to their individual consciousnesses.
I think Skinchanging is a melding of Two distinct and conscious Selves.
I see Other necromancy and just that: necromancy (if you are talking about wights).
If we are considering the Others/ww's, then I think they are an example of multiple, individual, Human Consciousnesses (and First Men consciousnesses, specifically), inhabiting inhuman magical (but nearly-biological) Selves made of ice. They have bones and blood. They have eyes, hands, legs, feet, and something akin to vocal cords. Their speech apparatus conveys a voice with the timbre of cracking ice on a frozen lake. This again points to a real and tangible body. Rather than being biologically carbon-based, like Men, they are somehow magically ice-based, but they are real bodies nonetheless. I make this distinction because there are several other identities you bring up that do not have bodies, or, do not have bodies of their own. The Others have bodies of their own. They even have clothes, or at least, armor. They seem Human in every way, except their biology - or lack thereof.
If we are talking about wights, they are strangely dissimilar from their blue-eyed brethren. First and foremost, they retain human biology. Their blood has been freeze-dried, but it is nonetheless blood, and not ice. They display all the characteristics of human bodies that have recently died, and been frozen. (Remember the shock of cold V6 feels when "true death" comes.) So, in short, wights are frozen, dead, meat. While they are clearly animate, they do not demonstrate any sense of "Self" nor individual consciousness. It may well be that there is some echoes of memory, frozen upon their synaptic alignments, but it remains to be seen if they are truly cognizant creatures. Clearly, something cognizant is controlling and guiding them, but they, in and of themselves, seem more like puppets. It is my belief that Night's King and his Queen are the ones pulling the strings. I think the 13th LC sought to kill the 997th.
R'hllorist resurrections remain to be proven, in my opinion, that they were indeed caused by R'hllor. Bodies rising from the dead is hardly rare anymore in the series. And with the "old powers awakening" it is hard to say if recovering alcoholic Thoros actually resurrected Beric, or if it was caused by his faith, or it was cause by his god, or if it was a fluke or spontaneous event. Whatever the mystery is behind Beric, it explains Cat. In any case, there was no death to pay for Beric's life, or else everyone who died could buy their life back with their own death, and that would make no sense. Beric seems special to me, and breaks MMD's rule. Considering MMD studied shadowbinding, like Mel, and Thoros did not, I would say that Beric's life has nothing to do with shadowbinding, nor the 'only death may pay for life' stipulation.
Back to what Beric and Cat are, exactly, I think they each demonstrate a functioning biological body, and because of that, memories of the self (like the frozen memories of wights), but no longer possess their own consciousness-derived Selves. I think spirit and consciousness can be seen as one and the same: a living, natural manifestation of identity. Each death bring a little brain decay, for Beric and Cat. They are functioning biological meat, bereft of the living consciousness/Self.
Rhaego's soul, or, in my interp, his Conscious Self, left his body when he was stillborn. He was a baby. Sure he had dragon blood, but he was just a kid. The dragons have zero humanity, and Rhaegal demonstrates nothing of Rhaego, in my opinion.
Shadow binding is an interesting one. Well, they all are, of course. But shadowbinding is a lot like horcruxing, in my opinion. A person fragments their own Consciousness, and encapsulates a fragment of the Self by having sex with a shadowbinder. The act of sex, itself, (unlike horcruxes) seems to produce the encapsulation. The shadowbinder provides the shadow, in my opinion, from her very womb (I'm thinking this precludes men from becoming shadowbinders). In her womb, the shadowbinder binds the Consciousness Fragment, delivered via semen, apparently, to a Shadow. Rather than inhuman sidhe made of ice (I'm *winking* at you, JNR lol), we have ourselves a human consciousness fragment made of shadow. Stannis' intent to murder Renly is the fragment he delivered, and Mel delivered the shadow of it.
Stannis seems to understand all of this. He remembers doing the deed, almost. It was a part of himself that did it, at least, and he knows that. He even dreams of it.
Coldhands, in my opinion, is the opposite of Beric and LS. His body is a corpse, yet, his Consciouss Self remains in it. Cold seems to have preserved him, and I think if he crossed south of the Wall, he would die. He's been killed already, "long ago" by Leaf's account, yet lives. He, in my opinion, is the only example of a truly living corpse in the novels (but there are a few individuals who come pretty close). Or, at least, he is the only corpse that has retained it's natural, Consciousness-derived Self. I think his Elk is just a loyal beast of burden.
I'm open to the idea the cotf resurrected Coldhands somehow, but I think it unlikely. We've yet to see anyone with greenpowers resurrect anybody. I think BR himself is even less likely, as he's old, but not old enough by Leaf's frame of reference to qualify her statement that, "they killed him long ago."
Your dwindling comparison of Stannis to Beric is very apt, but I would argue they are dwindling due to different causes. Stannis is fragmenting his Conscious Self, Beric's Conscious Self is long gone, imo. Stannis is dwindling due to very-human guilt, and very sorcerous manipulation. Beric was dwindling due to no longer having his Conscious Self in his body (unlike Coldhands), and instead, only retaining memories of it.
Skinchanging 'remnants' (cool term by the way) is also very apt. I call them artifacts. But, both terms feel a little off the mark to me. When Bran slips into Summer's skin, he is a part of Summer's living, natural Conscious Self. The two of them have bonded with each other. It is a mutual relationship. And, I would argue that Bran demonstrates evidence of Summer being a part of his Consciousness, inside of his Bran-skin, from the time Gared is executed in the first chapter. Bran begins to feel colder, even though the wind has stopped, and the sun is higher in the sky. It is my interpretation that is due to Summer's Consciousness already merging with his own. The "wordless cry of dismay" drives the point home, once he has the pup in hand. If we imagine this as a two-way street, it seems perfectly reasonable that Summer will retain some sense of Bran's Conscious Self, even if Bran died today.
In GRRM's universe, he gives further personification to this "sense" and indeed makes it a very literal process in Varamyr's prologue. Varamyr dies, floats around, and finds refuge in One-Eye's body. One Eye, however, unlike V6, is still inhabiting the body he was born with. I think that matters. And I think this is the reason that V6's consciousness, though ever-present, fades in perspective as One Eye's dominance over his own Conscious Self grows. V6 can live as a part of One Eye's mind, but he, himself, is no longer alive. His body died, like Coldhands' body. But, unlike Coldhands, he is not the dominant member of the body he is now inhabiting. One Eye is a wolf, and was loyal to V6, but is still and individual. Coldhands does not have that problem, and, what's more, I believe he is inhabiting the body he was born with. It might be dead, but it's still his own.
When Bran finds he is "not alone" inside of the Raven's Consciousness, he knows he is there with a girl, a cotf girl, as it happens. I think he would find V6 inside of One Eye in the same fashion. And, if Bran died, I think a fellow skinchanger would find the "sweet summer child" there inside of Summer.
Qyburn's monster is a whole other beast, but, if that is truly the Mountain's body, and the Mountain's head was truly sent to Dorne, then it appears Coldhands is not the only Conscious Self inhabiting a corpse. I think it's more likely that Qyburn has suspended the Mountain's death, and that the head shipped to Dorne was that of an unfortunate dwarf (gained from Cersei's hunt for the valonqar).
Rather than lump these individuals together, and explain them all under the umbrella of greenseeing, or the skinchanging ability, I'd rather marvel at and study their uniqueness. Each seems to be a lesson on identity.
Theon almost warrants a spot on this list, poor guy. LOL
