X+Y=Z post show reveal

No worries.

I getcha now, and agree. But that's what the theory itself is all about, right? ...connecting Jon to Rhaegar. 

If a connection were made, explicitly, then it wouldn't be much of a mystery. 

And Rhaegar is certainly connected to Lyanna, by many POVs in the novels. Once we connect Jon to Lyanna, it's an easy leap to make. 

The part that hangs me up is that it's too easy. While Jon and Rhaegar are never connected, we have constant reminders of Targaryen-ness throughout the series, multiple cases of hidden-Targs, suspected Targs, and there be dragons. 

It's a constant refrain. 

After reading some of GRRM's other works, I can't help but be suspicious of the constant refrains. He is not only hyper-aware of tropes, cliche, and the expectations of readers, he relies upon them to fool us. Hence my reservations regarding RLJ. 

It's not that it isn't plausible (although there are some serious oversights in the theory, imo), it's that it is too simple.

And not to sound disrespectful of anyone, I truly am not.. but readers re relying upon Occam's razor in analyzing ASOIAF is woefully ignorant of GRRM's modus operandi. 

His weapon of choice is Occam's razor, and he wields it as deftly as Arthur Dayne held Dawn.



What flaws are standing out to you more now, after seeing HBO's version?

Not a drop.



Yup. In my unofficial study of friends/family/acquaintances who have read the series over the years, their first-read impressions tend to fall into two main groups:



I have a feeling you were in group two, wolf maid, and had already read a fair amount of fantasy by the time you read ASOIAF.

So has GRRM. 

He knows the cliche inside and out. He relies upon such tropes. Experienced fantasy aficionados will see not only that there is a parentage mysery afoot, they nearly always jump to the conclusion that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. 

Why? Because it's fantasy. And there is always a hidden prince/king/jedi/etc. Always...

What takes time to appreciate, is just how subtle GRRM is. 

We see his subltety in Group 1. The mystery of Jon's parentage never stands out to them the way it stands out to fans of fantasy literature. George knows they will be looking for it and expecting it. In Bran 1 (the very first chapter of AGOT), Jon's unique appearance is pointed out by his half-brother. The mystery snowballs until finally concluding (for the time-being) with Ned's "close as brothers" prayer at the heart tree. Jon often wonders about his mother, and feels conflicted about his father. We recall that Jon looks like Arya, Arya looks like Lyanna, and boom goes the dynamite.

Rhaegar rode past his own lady wife to crown Lyanna queen of love and beauty. Robert's rape comment, Lyanna's promises, the bed of blood. Done and done and done. 

It is extremely straightforward. 

And, George is relying upon that. He does it over and over again in his other works. Not with parentages, necessarily, but he does feign with the obvious while subtly weaving an alternative solution. 

It's what makes the rereads so enjoyable. You see the path so clearly, after the mysteries are revealed. But before they are, it is a dense forest of obfuscation, and it turns out the beacons lighting your way were false. 

Unless GRRM truly had no desire to fool a reader as astute as his mother, then there is simply no way Jon can be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. 

The rumor mill makes perfect sense with RLJ (Barristan's "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna" and the like), but close examination reveals stones and roots and hidden sinks lying just under its crust, waiting for the careless and the unwary.

We are then left to either question the rumors, or question the first-person accounts. 

Was Lyanna not at all like Arya, and a fool for romance whom was easy to kidnap? Contrary to her protestations to Ned, was Lyanna cool with infidelity? Can we accept that Ned bears little emotion at all toward Rhaegar, and thinks of him rarely, even though Ned has been raising his son? Can we accept that Ned would blame Lyanna for her death, at sixteen, even though she had been in the custody/bed of the king's 23 year old son? Can we accept that Ned hates Jorah Mormont for the sole reason that he sold some poachers to a passing slaver, and thereby dishonored the north, yet feels nothing for the man who left his wife's bed in order to steal Ned's only sister from his best friend, impregnated her at fifteen years old, and led her to an early grave? 


Ned seems to have some serious priority issues, if R+L=J. 


Now, back to Group 1. They do not see the mystery. That will change now that the show has forced the question into their minds, but previously, first time readers unfamiliar with fantasy literature were not left impressed with the idea that Jon's parentage was particularly important. 

That's subtlety. 

And for me, it makes me wonder why GRRM laid out the rumors so carefully, like a brightly illuminated path of dragon-shaped breadcrumbs, while simultaneously offering us first-hand accounts that seem to conflict with the rumors. 




Not necessarily. Bran is told that eventually, he will be able to see beyond the trees. And, we don't know for certain that there are no weirwoods at the toj/Red Mountains. 



It is weird. Why didn't Ned ask about Lyanna in his dream? 

Well, we don't know that he never did. He had that dream more than once, but there's no reason to assume it was the exact same way every time he dreamed it. 

At the end of the dream, he hears Lyanna's voice. Or, maybe that was only Vayon Poole's voice. Tis difficult to say. 

But yes, in the show's version, it still doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't Arthur and company tell Ned where Lyanna was?

At that point, why?

It serve no purpose to keep Lyanna's presence a secret. Ned can hear a woman. Why is Arthur Dayne being such a cryptic dick to Lyanna's own brother? 

It doesn't add up. 

It doesn't add up in the novels either, if Lyanna is in the tower, but thankfully, I have a feeling GRRM will write us with a far more plausible story than what HBO gave us. 



While I see what you mean, we don't exactly have any reason to assume she was not missing. 

It would have been hard to justify the Rebellion had she not been missing. I've oft argued that her absence was used as propaganda, and is what Jon Arryn relied upon to get the Quiet Wolf off his ass in calling his banners. 

I've wondered more than once if Jon Arryn wanted/needed Lyanna to disappear in order to begin his rebellion, but that's another discussion. 



Definitely agree.



You mean as in "abducted Lyanna" vs "ran off with Lyanna"? 

It does make for a continuity issue, but I don't know if HBO is all that concerned with continuity issues, unfortunately. 

 

And I must say, this impression really comes to the fore time and time again as you read his other works. 

His wife was right... George doesn't do obvious. 

Who knew wives could understand their husbands so well? 



Yup I getcha now.

It is a fair distinction to make. And I can only agree:  the nature of weirwood-time is what makes it possible for Greenseers to gaze into the past. 

Thankfully, we did not learn of the showdown between Ned's wraiths and the 3 KG via the weirnet in the books. 



1. We simply do not know all that was said when Brandon rode to the Red Keep. All we know is that he demanded Rhaegar come out and die, and was justly executed for threatening the blood royal. He could have asked after Lyanna. He may not have. We have no way of knowing.

If Lyanna was not missing, why did Brandon ride to the Red Keep?

2. True. But I think that by this point she was presumed dead. Granted, that is pure speculation on my part. 

You bring up an interesting point though. Why did Ned ride south? To hunt down the missing KG? To look for Daenerys? I know what Ned remembers, and what he remembers thinking as he leaves in a cold rage, but unless he was going to search for the KG/Lyanna, I don't really understand his motivation. The war is over. The throne is won.

Was Sandor correct about Ned when he spoke to Sansa about killing men? Did Ned just enjoy killing by that point? It can be difficult for combat veterans to re-acclimate to civilian life, and that is something GRRM offers great consideration. Perhaps Ned was going rogue. 

3. We have no reason to make this assumption. We are never given a first-hand account of Robert's encounter with Rhaegar at the Trident. 



Both true. I think we agree that Lyanna's disappearance was used as propaganda then. It conveniently (for Jon Arryn) forced royalists to defend their missing prince, whose actions were being forcibly called into question. 

If the worldbook is correct, and Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna just outside of Harrenhal, it seems Ned's father did not find it worthy of retaliation - which has always struck me as strange. 

If that were my fourteen year old daughter, I'd have turned Rhaegar into my Reek. 

But not Rickard. 

And not Eddard. 

Not until Jon Arryn called his banners did Ned and Robert call their own... and that is glaring fact in favor of your argument that Lyanna was not missing. 

They did not win the throne to win the throne. They rebelled to win the throne. And they rebelled for Jon Arryn. Not because of Lyanna. Not because of dead babies. 



Mayhaps, but I don't really think the two accounts are contradictory. While far from romantic, if Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, I think that would still qualify as Rhaegar leaving his wife for another woman.  

That being said, I agree with you in that the infographic was VERY sloppy, and a ruse. How can it not be? You muffle the name of the baby then release the answer in a web diagram? 

C'mon now. 

And that infographic had a picture of Rickard Stark, who has of course never been cast or filmed on Game of Thrones... and did not include a picture of Lyanna Stark, in spite of her being cast, filmed, and broadcasted that very day on Game of Thrones. 

Sloppy. 



It was really good writing, actually, the first time it was done. Bran = Ed Glosser. 

www.hulu.com/watch/4180

Created that way so you guys don't go crazy,or to ensure you all don't surrender the world to hot looking green aliens.

But yeah i'm with Parris on this one.




For sure,try explaining that.Gives me the impression that D&D gleaned the books and haven't actually read it,or as long as they give fans what they want they don't really give a frack.



You know if it was just Brandon,i honestly wouldn't sweat it.It's him,Ned,Robert even Rhaegar in what i would consider one of the oddest sense of awareness considering what people thoguht to be the case at the time.All of that together points to one of those little tidbit in the Bael story that gets overlooked.

"Bael brought her back."No,they had been in Winterfell all the time,hiding with the dead beneath the castle."

Maiden wasn't missing,Papa Stark thought Bael took her but he didn't.The Starks raised holy hell to get someone back who was missing but really wasn't.She knew all that happened because of her but shame kept her from facing the music.The whole thing in this situation can unfold entirely different.More to that it would be a matter of perception.I speak from the point of view of the readers because the singers already spread the tale Rhaegar stole Robert's girl.

Who knows what the family knew i ofcourse believe they knew more based on Ned and Brandon's behavior.As to why Brandon went to KL.I think it had to do with what is it he heard about Lyanna. I personally think what Brandon heard was that Lyanna was preggers.He just jumped the gun based on what happened at Harrenhall and assumed Rhaegar.





This too has always struck me as odd and i do have a theory about that i'm working on.But him going there with 6 dudes into hostile territory







Oh i see what you were thinking.I wasn't saying those two things were contradictory as far as in book.Clearly, in book there's two trains of thought on that.None of which seems to consider Lyanna as having any kind of autonomy at all it seems.



Oh yeah those were the days.

voice I feel like they need to have more flashbacks to kind of flesh some of this stuff out, but I’m not sure they are going to have enough time with the amount of episodes that they have left. Though it sounds like the remaining episodes may all be longer than normal, so we may end up with several 8-90 minute episodes.