So according to the show, Lyanna gave birth to a single male baby. We don't know for certain that's Jon, but it was very strongly implied. We don't know for certain who the father was, but the options are certainly getting smaller.
Lyanna believed that Robert would kill the baby if he knew.
The name of the baby was kept hidden from the audience, and appears to be of some importance. It seems to either start with a vowel sound, or start with a soft consonant. It seems to be at least 2 and probably 3 syllables. It probably ends with an S sound. I'd guess it was Viserys or Jaeherys, but honestly the actress might have been told to whisper something incomprehensible so we can't read too much into that
My thoughts:
The show could be faking us out about the baby being Jon, but I seriously doubt that.
I'd say Dayne remains in the frame, but the hidden name and the Robert will kill him thing make Rhaegar a lot more likely.
The show could do this differently from the books, but I think the chances of that are close to zero.
So the question to you all is: does this change your opinions on the book X+L=J question or not? If you don't believe in RLJ, do you think the show is going a different route? Or do you think the show reveals something different?
I think she said "Aerys," and have a thread on that topic.
I think it is very interesting that the show went with so much ambiguity, yet specified that Robert would kill the baby. Strong point in favor of Rhaegar, but in truth, Robert only hated Rhaegar because he "raped" Lyanna. So it's hard to say if Robert wouldn't have hated any man who had sex with her, aside from himself.
I think the episode was a blow against Robert and Benjen as Jon's father, but little else.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
And rather than reveal any father, they revealed Lyanna in a bed of blood with a baby, which is something most of us already have as head-canon. Powerful scene. And I really liked it. You will notice there are several other people present, aside from Lyanna - strong points in favor that she gave birth at Starfall or that there were others at the tower of joy.
A quick comparison of the baby's parents...
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
The show could be faking us out about the baby being Jon, but I seriously doubt that.
I'd say Dayne remains in the frame, but the hidden name and the Robert will kill him thing make Rhaegar a lot more likely.
The show could do this differently from the books, but I think the chances of that are close to zero.
1. Agreed re: the fake out. The baby opening his eyes and then on Jon--the show isn't all that good at subtle. They tend to prefer clear and obvious. Pretty damn sure that's Jon.
2. Agreed re: Rhaegar. Especially since they brought up "your prince" in the previous scene.
But as to Robert's trying to kill him, the show made it clear from season one that Robert hates Rhaegar for "what he did to" Lyanna. The books have him insisting that Rhaegar raped Lyanna multiple times. That's the source of his wrath, of his re-killing Rhaegar in his dreams.
I can't see how that wrath would be lessened if it were Arthur, Rhaegar's bestie and kingsguard, instead.
As to the hidden name--as you say above, until we hear it, it does not give us anything. It could be that they are hiding the name she gave Jon, the name of his "house," his father, or a combo.
So, like you, I think Arthur is still in the frame. And I think he's in there pretty strongly due to the sword.
The first scene has him swing the sword, plant the sword, the camera focus on the sword and its sun-sigil a few times. Then he drops his sword and Ned uses it to kill Arthur and then runs into the "tower" with it, covered in Arthur's blood.
Then, when he gets into the tower, Ned clearly and camera focused-ly places said bloody Arthur sword at the foot of Lyanna's bloody bed, with her in the background of the shot.
If they are trying to tell us that Arthur's bloody sword and Lyanna's bloody bed are connected, they did a pretty clear job of it.
Throw in that the point of the fight scene seemed to be to show Bran that the story of Ned's fight with Arthur was not what he'd thought--why have that be the emphasis of the scene? Vs. duty or honor? It was all focused on learning about how Ned killed Arthur. And they weren't subtle about that.
So, I really think Arthur's an excellent candidate at this point.
3. Agreed re: not doing things differently between the show and the books. They could, but I really doubt it. Unless Jon's paternity isn't relevant, changing it seems just nutty.
So the question to you all is: does this change your opinions on the book X+L=J question or not? If you don't believe in RLJ, do you think the show is going a different route? Or do you think the show reveals something different?
A couple of things in addition to Arthur:
If I squint I could MAYBE make a case for Benjen based on his timely arrival and bringing Bran to the tree that gives him the second part of the vision.
But the idea of Jon as sacrifice--I'm having a harder time finding that in the show. No ritual was happening, just a birth and a fight. But it was in the episode where Jon sends Mel packing (FINALLY) precisely because she sacrificed a child. Which likely means nothing in terms of Jon's paternity--but maybe.
So, if I had to vote just on the Kingsguard, I'd say Rhaegar has the advantage. But if I take the sword and the focus on Arthur into account, I'd say Arthur has the advantage.
That's my extremely wordy two cents.
Last Edit: Jun 28, 2016 21:36:31 GMT by SlyWren: I can't spell.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I think the episode was a blow against Robert and Benjen as Jon's father, but little else.
Yeah--the Robert one seems very unlikely. Though that scene did support that Lyanna knew and understood Robert well. Making the scene even sadder in some ways.
As I said above, I can squint and make a case for Benjen, but it's really giving me a headache.
You will notice there are several other people present, aside from Lyanna - strong points in favor that she gave birth at Starfall or that there were others at the tower of joy.
Yup. I really think they blended tower and Starfall.
HA! It's like Westerosi Maury Povich--but with pictures instead of DNA.
Should we try comparing earlobe shape or something? Whether anyone has dimples?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
It didn't change my mind at all because of a couple of things:
"Having said all that, I know what the next question will be, because hundreds of you have already asked it of me. Will the show 'spoil' the novels?
Maybe. Yes and no. Look, I never thought the series could possibly catch up with the books, but it has. The show moved faster than I anticipated and I moved more slowly. There were other factors too, but that was the main one. Given where we are, inevitably, there will be certain plot twists and reveals in season six of GAME OF THRONES that have not yet happened in the books. For years my readers have been ahead of the viewers. This year, for some things, the reverse will be true. How you want to handle that... hey, that's up to you. Look, I read Andy Weir's novel THE MARTIAN before I saw the movie. But I saw the BBC production of JONATHAN STRANGE AND MR NORRELL before I finally got around to reading Susanna Clarke's novel. In both cases, I loved the book and I loved the adaptation. It does not need to be one or the other. You might prefer one over the other, but you can still enjoy the hell out of both.
Of course, there's an aspect to our situation that did not apply to either the Weir or Clarke cases. Those novels were finished before they were optioned, adapted, and filmed. The case of GAME OF THRONES and A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE is perhaps unique. I can't think of any other instance where the movie or TV show came out as the source material was still being written. So when you ask me, "will the show spoil the books," all I can do is say, "yes and no," and mumble once again about the butterfly effect. Those pretty little butterflies have grown into mighty dragons. Some of the 'spoilers' you may encounter in season six may not be spoilers at all... because the show and the books have diverged, and will continue to do so (GRRM).
So inlight of GRRM's own statement about this i don't know why people think that the book wouldn't do it differently.I thought the show was based on books and not the other way around.
Secondly, alot of the theories true or false seem to be straight of the threads.The fact that some from a narrative and thematic standpoint are conflicting is evident of that.Case in point that Jon would be named KITN after the Lord's find out he was literally dead,brought back to life by a woman who shat on their gods and their ways...Really?We know that bit of info made it passed the Wall because Ramsey insinutated strongly he knew.
Next,"Robert would kill him" is another proof of that....Robert would never kill Lyanna's child and Ned's nephew."That would never happen and the more Jon grew to look like the Starks the more it would make it even harder for him not to associate Jon with everything about what he loved....Ned and Lyanna.
If it was revealed to Robert that Lyanna wasn't infact raped but that she and Rhaegar were in love,he would kill Jon why????
The whole basis for Robert's hatred is what he thinks Rhaegar did to Lyanna,so isn't the best route.
(1).Tell him the truth Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar and let the man move on with his life..or
(2). Lie to him that they were in love and let him move on with their lives
So what does that say..hmmmmm?
Come on guys a lot of fan theories made it in this episode.Including R+L=J(Be it true or false)...They don't know what the answer is themselves.Sorry Kingmonkey it was good entertainment.
P.S. Clearly,Ned killed those two girls who were in the room.
Second P.S.We will wrap up next week after things cool down including my digestive issues.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Am rewatching episode 3 right now. Will be interesting to watch the context of the toj knowing what lies ahead.
Just before the showdown between Ned, Howland and Arthur Dayne (the only men named) at the tower of joy, D&D showed off their writing prowess with Gilly's the sea is called the sea because it goes as far as the eye can see quip. While it's all rather nauseating, as Samwell is actually vomiting in the scene, it does end on an interesting note. Sam tells Gilly he expected her to throw something at him and storm off, and she tells him that she would never do something like that to the "father" of her baby. Cut to Young Ned and Howland riding to the tower of joy/castle that looks like Starfall.
Interesting transition, no?
From talk of an angry (wolf-blooded like) mother, becoming violent and running away... to talk of a bastard's adopted father... to an immediate cut to Young Ned riding to find his sister.
Thought it was kinda cool.
That Arthur Dayne was named, as well as his title and sword, is big. But so too is it big that Arthur stated their prince wanted them at the place.
Now, I still (yes, perhaps it is absurdly) argue that Lyanna was not at the tower, and that Jon was not either in the book-verse... but the show has certainly canonized that bit of fan theory in their retelling of the books. So, accept it I do, so far as the show is concerned.
In the show, we had a baby boy, protected from Robert specifically, in a tower with Lyanna as she lay dying. More than that, she was protected by two (couldn't they afford a third?) knights of the Kingsguard. While I would argue that the Unsullied Audience has more reason to know and sympathize for Arthur at this point than they have reason to know and sympathize for Rhaegar at this point, there is still next season. They may cast and film Rhaegar yet. Jon may be Rhaegar's son.
The X is very much an X. Y is Lyanna. Z is Jon. Rhaegar is an extremely likely candidate for X, but based upon the show alone, I'm not having much of a reason to want him to be. Arthur-theories aside, what reason does Game of Thrones have to make Rhaegar Jon's father at this point?
The show has made no connection between Rhaegar and tptwp (they only did that for Stannis). And rather than have Dany find true love at the Wall, she instead finds Khal Drogo (in the show's version of the HotU vision). So, I'm wondering what their impetus and motives are for these things, and how they will tie them together.
Regardless of the parentage, I think it has been a sloppy endeavor. And that is too bad. While the show is incredibly popular and well-received today, I do not think it will hold up very well in the years to come. The gaps in continuity and sheer disregard for anything resembling plausibility/possibility has become noticeable for even Unsullied viewers. So time will only make such things worse.
The books face the opposite outlook, in my opinion. And will be regarded as better than even we regard them now in the years to come.
Just my two coppers.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
P.S. Clearly,Ned killed those two girls who were in the room.
What? WHAT??? That's not Ned's style at all. I was actually going to ask something I hadn't noticed being addressed - i.e. does anyone think the handmaid turns out to be anyone significant?
To answer the OP, my feeling is that the show and book won't diverge here and the way the show presented it nudged me a couple of points towards the father being R. However I want it to be A, so I'm still holding out hope.
P.S. Clearly,Ned killed those two girls who were in the room.
What? WHAT??? That's not Ned's style at all. I was actually going to ask something I hadn't noticed being addressed - i.e. does anyone think the handmaid turns out to be anyone significant?
To answer the OP, my feeling is that the show and book won't diverge here and the way the show presented it nudged me a couple of points towards the father being R. However I want it to be A, so I'm still holding out hope.
Lol..That's to show you how absurd it was and again how much fan service they have done...Down to two hand maidens being at the toj to help Lyanna.
So let's compare that to what the books say.I don't think Lyanna was at toj and at this point i watch for pure entertainment value.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Post by whitewolfstark on Jul 6, 2016 19:28:32 GMT
Honestly D&D already stated why they showed Bran Ned's fight with Arthur, to hint rather obviously that the past characters "know" isn't everything that's happened.
I was actually going to ask something I hadn't noticed being addressed - i.e. does anyone think the handmaid turns out to be anyone significant?
I think D&D left the window open for her to be someone significant, if they need her to be.
The way it was filmed left a lot of loose ends. More loose ends than even the books, in my opinion.
The handmaiden could be Wylla. She had an ethnic/Dornish look about her in any case.
There was one other woman present too, who is never shown clearly. She could be their way of leaving open the possibility of including Ashara, if need be.
It all seems to suggest to me that they are waiting, as we are, for more information from George.
To answer the OP, my feeling is that the show and book won't diverge here
But they already have...
They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.
HBO's version had six, facing two. The tower was not round. The Red Mountains of Dorne were no where to be seen. Instead, it was a castle, not a tower, and it was quite square. Rather than red mountains, it rose amidst green rolling hills.
Was that Oswell Whent sharpening his blade? Might be. But he wasn't on one knee. Where is the White Bull? Certainly he is important. Aside from being LC of the KG, he interacts with Ned the most, in the fever dream.
and the way the show presented it nudged me a couple of points towards the father being R. However I want it to be A, so I'm still holding out hope.
Me three. It was presented in a very favorable way for Rhaegar being the father. But I am still left wondering what Rhaegar as Jon's father accomplishes in terms of the show. Rhaegar is no one of import in the show. Even in the books, he is remembered only every couple of years.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Am rewatching episode 3 right now. Will be interesting to watch the context of the toj knowing what lies ahead.
Just before the showdown between Ned, Howland and Arthur Dayne (the only men named) at the tower of joy, D&D showed off their writing prowess with Gilly's the sea is called the sea because it goes as far as the eye can see quip. While it's all rather nauseating, as Samwell is actually vomiting in the scene, it does end on an interesting note. Sam tells Gilly he expected her to throw something at him and storm off, and she tells him that she would never do something like that to the "father" of her baby. Cut to Young Ned and Howland riding to the tower of joy/castle that looks like Starfall.
Interesting transition, no?
From talk of an angry (wolf-blooded like) mother, becoming violent and running away... to talk of a bastard's adopted father... to an immediate cut to Young Ned riding to find his sister.
Thought it was kinda cool.
That Arthur Dayne was named, as well as his title and sword, is big. But so too is it big that Arthur stated their prince wanted them at the place.
Now, I still (yes, perhaps it is absurdly) argue that Lyanna was not at the tower, and that Jon was not either in the book-verse... but the show has certainly canonized that bit of fan theory in their retelling of the books. So, accept it I do, so far as the show is concerned.
In the show, we had a baby boy, protected from Robert specifically, in a tower with Lyanna as she lay dying. More than that, she was protected by two (couldn't they afford a third?) knights of the Kingsguard. While I would argue that the Unsullied Audience has more reason to know and sympathize for Arthur at this point than they have reason to know and sympathize for Rhaegar at this point, there is still next season. They may cast and film Rhaegar yet. Jon may be Rhaegar's son.
The X is very much an X. Y is Lyanna. Z is Jon. Rhaegar is an extremely likely candidate for X, but based upon the show alone, I'm not having much of a reason to want him to be. Arthur-theories aside, what reason does Game of Thrones have to make Rhaegar Jon's father at this point?
The show has made no connection between Rhaegar and tptwp (they only did that for Stannis). And rather than have Dany find true love at the Wall, she instead finds Khal Drogo (in the show's version of the HotU vision). So, I'm wondering what their impetus and motives are for these things, and how they will tie them together.
Regardless of the parentage, I think it has been a sloppy endeavor. And that is too bad. While the show is incredibly popular and well-received today, I do not think it will hold up very well in the years to come. The gaps in continuity and sheer disregard for anything resembling plausibility/possibility has become noticeable for even Unsullied viewers. So time will only make such things worse.
The books face the opposite outlook, in my opinion. And will be regarded as better than even we regard them now in the years to come.
Just my two coppers.
Agree on the absence of Rhaegar in this and all i can say is you cant connect two variables in the show that wasn't in the books.However,with two booms left maybe GRRM can "roshanbo" this connection.For now as in the books and what we saw in the show there's one strong connection between Dany and that's Rhaegar.Though they are trying to have her display behavior which wasn't in my opinion even showed of Aerys.
It was a lot of sloppy writing and fan service.Case in point Bran is going to go back on a vision quest because as he tells Meera he needs to be ready for "them" so he goes back to toj? Really?
I can't rely on the info no matter how tempting it gives the show to much credibility in a department they don't have and that's subtly.
I found myself wanting to do that only to remember who i'm dealing with.I'mm sound like a broken record and heed GRRM's warning on the show and the books.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"