Post by prestonjacobs on Sept 16, 2016 9:36:10 GMT
My big question is the ending. Yes, the commune was changing and only the old commune people remembered Keith. Still...it seems rather unrealistic that a song that everyone knew at the beginning would becomes a song that no one knew the words to at the end. The old commune people sang it every night
On my second read, I began to wonder if perhaps Keith succeeded in going to past and staying there, dying in the blast or erasing himself from existence. Yes, the times were a changin', but I wonder if time was actually changing, erasing Keith.
that's possible, but it should not erase the memory of the song though; if not Keith, then Janis Joplin.
'a new culture to replace the one that died'
perhaps most would not want to remember a culture that spawned a blast? they want it 'dead'
and just a few would mourn the death of a culture, like a dying dialect that only our grand parents might still speak.
Culture is precious.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Post by prestonjacobs on Sept 21, 2016 8:27:32 GMT
Naturally, the memories shouldn't be there. I wonder if they were phasing out before their eyes Looper-style.
But you bring up another interesting question: metaphorical time travel. The group could be actively trying to forget Keith ever existed (even falsely claiming it). And if you change the past (change memories), you change the present.
I actually think GRRM kind of fails in this story somewhat. I feel like Keith is supposed to be sympathetic and we are supposed to feel like we are losing something by forgetting him and his songs. But, honestly, the colony is now doing great without him. I finished the story thinking - good riddance. I'm sure that wasn't the intention.
martin wrote this text in 75; if you put yourself in the context of the early 70s, this line:
The most popular tune, right now, is a long ballad about how our army wiped out the Sons of the Blast.
reminds me of the then chinese cultural revolution propaganda; new culture wiping out the past. Oblivion.
Perhaps it was not even 'cool' to remember old songs in the 'Winters' way of life (well picked character name by the way).
But I agree, either way, the past is wiped out,
But there’s a price.
a culture dies.
To me there is a strong political message in this story. Beware of what you wish for?
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
fixed, i gave it full marks for the message i got out of it.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
"Time-tripping" is a central theme. It's a drug induced state that is reminiscent of time travel, and happens to sounds a lot like greenseeing.
And greensight comes with a warning: don't spend too much time out of your body, or you'll lose yourself. Looks like GRRM was playing with this idea long before he ever thought of Ice & Fire.
My big question is the ending. Yes, the commune was changing and only the old commune people remembered Keith. Still...it seems rather unrealistic that a song that everyone knew at the beginning would becomes a song that no one knew the words to at the end. The old commune people sang it every night
I'm not sure the commune people sang it every night - they just lay around and listened to Keith sing it. But he did sing it every night... My explanation to myself when I read it was that many years had passed since his death (they have a whole town now, and electricity, etc), and combined with perhaps some active forgetting of a sad memory, a long, complex song might be hard to recreate easily. I'm sure some people knew a few of the words, just apparently not enough to teach the new singer. There are songs that I heard often, for years, in high school, and knew the words to in my sleep. I'm sure if I heard them again just once, I would remember them easily, but without that, I could not now teach someone else what they were.
perhaps most would not want to remember a culture that spawned a blast? they want it 'dead'
I agree completely- people wanted to forget, to move on. The culture that died was the cause of the blast, it was a violent, flawed culture that killed itself. Sadly, by forgetting, they also forgot the lessons they should have learned from this culture. We see this in the line:
The most popular tune, right now, is a long ballad about how our army wiped out the Sons of the Blast.
It's been less than one generation since Man annihilated himself, and already, military men are back in charge and everybody is singing war songs. This, to me, was the message of the story, and I found it dark and bitter - just the way I like it, LOL.
I actually think GRRM kind of fails in this story somewhat. I feel like Keith is supposed to be sympathetic and we are supposed to feel like we are losing something by forgetting him and his songs. But, honestly, the colony is now doing great without him. I finished the story thinking - good riddance. I'm sure that wasn't the intention.
Lol, I'm sure it wasn't! The way I see it, Keith was helping them hold onto their humanity, and reminding them every day of what Men had lost. No, they weren't making progress as a colony, but the place started out as a hippie commune, a place of peace and love, of sharing and understanding. It symbolizes the best of humanity, and it survived the war. The people of the commune were like the COTF in a way; not actively seeking progress, not wanting to live in big cities or have technology - they wanted away from it, to live in peace, with nature.
Then along comes the military man, with his plans and ideas, to "restore civilization". He gets them building houses, exploring nearby areas, finding more people. By the end, it's a real town with a population of over 200 and even electricity. Sure, one could say that's progress. But one could also say that the day they took the chronine from Keith, in a selfish act that did them no good in the end (and that they should have known would destroy him), they began to lose their humanity. They continued to lose it after Keith's death, and by the end of the story, we have people in a town, with a militia, singing war songs. They have forgotten the past, and the lessons they should have learned from it. Because those lessons are bitter, the memories are bitter, and it's easier to move on and forget.
It's actually quite a powerful message, IMO, and Keith himself is just a tool to show us the flaws in the community.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
And greensight comes with a warning: don't spend too much time out of your body, or you'll lose yourself. Looks like GRRM was playing with this idea long before he ever thought of Ice & Fire.
Indeed.
Now imagine that instead of a drug simulating this trip, a tree grows and absorbs history the way other plants absorb nitrogen. Long slow thoughts, long slow growth.
It is the heart (a heart which only happens to look like a 'tree'), pumping consciousness through a river of time. Like our own hearts pumping oxygenated blood, it moves a river of sentience.
Now, imagine someone attacks that heart. Luckily, there are many hearts.
Now, fast forward to Bran finding that female skinchanger's presence within the crow he was flying. Bloodraven described her presence as a "shadow upon the soul."
Fast rewind to V6 adopting Orell's eagle. V6 can feel Orell's shadow upon its soul.
Sorry for all the back and forth. I do have a point.
We've seen what happens when someone attacks an Eagle's heart, and lights it on fire. It drove V6 mad. It was the worst pain he had ever experienced, and he had experieced death before in the skins of other animals. This one was different.
I think it was different because the bond-itself was attacked, and I think weirwoods create and regulate that bond. Thus, weirwoods create "shadows upon the soul" that remain even after the death of one who has made that bond.
Just imagine how much pain would be caused when cutting and burning a heart tree. Imagine how many would feel that pain.
And, imagine, what would happen to that river, that released moisture, those soul-shadows...
Lol, I'm sure it wasn't! The way I see it, Keith was helping them hold onto their humanity, and reminding them every day of what Men had lost. No, they weren't making progress as a colony, but the place started out as a hippie commune, a place of peace and love, of sharing and understanding. It symbolizes the best of humanity, and it survived the war. The people of the commune were like the COTF in a way; not actively seeking progress, not wanting to live in big cities or have technology - they wanted away from it, to live in peace, with nature.
Then along comes the military man, with his plans and ideas, to "restore civilization". He gets them building houses, exploring nearby areas, finding more people. By the end, it's a real town with a population of over 200 and even electricity. Sure, one could say that's progress. But one could also say that the day they took the chronine from Keith, in a selfish act that did them no good in the end (and that they should have known would destroy him), they began to lose their humanity. They continued to lose it after Keith's death, and by the end of the story, we have people in a town, with a militia, singing war songs. They have forgotten the past, and the lessons they should have learned from it. Because those lessons are bitter, the memories are bitter, and it's easier to move on and forget.
It's actually quite a powerful message, IMO, and Keith himself is just a tool to show us the flaws in the community.
We've seen what happens when someone attacks an Eagle's heart, and lights it on fire. It drove V6 mad. It was the worst pain he had ever experienced, and he had experieced death before in the skins of other animals. This one was different.
I think it was different because the bond-itself was attacked, and I think weirwoods create and regulate that bond. Thus, weirwoods create "shadows upon the soul" that remain even after the death of one who has made that bond.
Just imagine how much pain would be caused when cutting and burning a heart tree. Imagine how many would feel that pain.
And, imagine, what would happen to that river, that released moisture, those soul-shadows...
I think what would happen is they would go mad! Which would neatly take care of any/all timeline problems, as they would not need a specific trigger if they were insane. They might not even know what time specifically they are acting in, so the trees from 2,000 years after the Pact could think they were 500 years before it. Or, perhaps they (or rather, their avatars the Others) really were defeated after the first LN, and they have to be kept in check somehow... which has been happening fairly successfully for the last 8,000 years, but now some as of yet unknown trigger has released them. Hmmm. I will have to think about this one. On the one hand, I would prefer a more rational explanation for what's going on than sheer madness, but on the other, it would be kind of brilliant in how utterly unpredictable it is.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
