Post by Dornish Neck Tie on Sept 13, 2016 3:47:29 GMT
Two quotes from the Reach's section in the World Book. They seem to contradict each other:
"This latter was the realm ruled by the Gardeners of old, and in more recent days by the descendants of their stewards, the Tyrells of Highgarden. It was in these green fields that chivalry was born, history tells us; the gallant knights and fair maids of the Reach are celebrated throughout the Seven Kingdoms by the singers, whose own traditions first took root here as well."
"Gwayne V was the first Gardener born into the Faith, and the first to be made a knight by solemn rite and vigil. (Many of his noble forebears have had posthumous knighthood conveyed on them by singers and storytellers, but true knighthood only came to Westeros with the Andals."
- The Reach, The World of Ice and Fire
If the Andals truly brought knighthood to Westeros, then the birthplace of Westerosi chivalry would necessarily be the Vale, where Andals of the Faith first acquired lands and titles. A few questions come to mind here:
Is the institution of knighthood a later addition to the Faith, implemented after its establishment in the Reach?
If so, was this change compelled by the old gods and/or their followers?
Was this influence achieved through cooperation, or was it through more openly adversarial means?
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
It was in these green fields that chivalry was born, history tells us; the gallant knights and fair maids of the Reach are celebrated throughout the Seven Kingdoms by the singers, whose own traditions first took root here as well.
but true knighthood only came to Westeros with the Andals."
The Reach was the wealthy end of Westeros where possibly wealthy lords held tourneys to impress fair maidens so that songs could be written. But they also cleaned up the south of children and giants.
The Andals were war mongering invaders... not much knighthood there.
However, i do think that the FM who came in the south of Westeros were of andal stock. They certainly do not ressemble the FM of the northern tribes. So both origins are not necessarily contradictory.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
I don't think there is necessarily anything particularly weird going on here. In our world during the reign of Charlemagne (8th century AD) any well-equipped horseman could be described as a knight. It wasn't until 400 years later in the 12th century that a distinction was made between low-born "Men-at-Arms" and noble "Knights". It was around this time that the chivalric code began to be established and the traditional knight (as we know them) would emerge. So undoubtedly the Andals brought the concept of heavy horse to Westeros but it may be that in the fertile and gentle lands of the Reach some years later that the idea of chivalry itself was born.
Post by Dornish Neck Tie on Sept 14, 2016 2:28:34 GMT
Agreed, I don't think there is anything weird in the conspiratorial sense going on here. I do, however, think it's an important indicator of how Andal and First Men cultures (if they were in fact all that different) interacted with one another in the early going.
We're given the impression that knighthood is an institution of relatively pure Andal/Faith origins. ( pieceofgosa , I think the Westerosi term "knight" refers primarily to status within the Faith, not a rough equivalent for a heavy mounted warrior. Mounted warriors have been fairly commonplace for a long time.) I think the establishment of chivalry in the Reach represents an intersection of faiths and cultures, with roughly equal influence by both First Men and Andals. I think this fits with the similarities knighthood bears to both the ancient Night's Watch, and closer to home, the Citadel's "knights of the mind."
This may provide some valuable information on how devotees of the Faith and the old gods have interacted over the millenia. Admittedly, I might just be way behind and all of this information may have been uncovered already, as I've only been reading the books since around 2011-12... Regardless, I think this dynamic is fascinating, especially since character motives are so often driven by old historical grudges/allegiances.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Post by Dornish Neck Tie on Sept 14, 2016 15:38:15 GMT
Another thought just popped into my brain:
The Reach would have had a very large hand in maintaining the Night's Watch of old, at the height of its powers.
As much as we like to identify the North with First Men culture, that unique distinction only rings true for very recent history. In the early days of Andal inhabitence of Westeros, Oldtown and the Reach were the unquestioned centers of population and culture for the First Men. The Night's Watch could not have remained a powerful fighting force without a large influx of manpower from the Reach, where the bulk of the talent pool resided. It's reasonable to think that the northern regions of Westeros were much less populated than they are now for a few reasons:
The Reach's size and fertility will always support much larger populations than any other region of Westeros.
The Long Night was much more recent in those days. A lot of people died up there, and more have stayed away since.
The advance of First Men migration came up from the south of the continent. I imagine once First Men crossed Dorne and finally reached the Reach (ha), most decided that there was no need to go any further; this was the promised land.
So, if knighthood only crops up in the pages of histories after the Andals have had extensive contact with the beating heart of First Men culture and political power, what might this tell us of the Faith and the First Men?
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
So, if knighthood only crops up in the pages of histories after the Andals have had extensive contact with the beating heart of First Men culture and political power, what might this tell us of the Faith and the First Men?
Powerfully worded my friend.
I also think it is interesting that the Seven pray to a seven sided crystal, alive with light. The whole thing evokes the Others, not just the Stranger. And the Stranger's face is but one of our own -- Mother, Father, Warrior, Smith, Maiden, Crone -- because the Seven are one. Sorry to go all Other-y. I do that too often.
I really like the idea of some Old Gods + Sevenist cross-mojination.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I also think it is interesting that the Seven pray to a seven sided crystal, alive with light. The whole thing evokes the Others, not just the Stranger. And the Stranger's face is but one of our own -- Mother, Father, Warrior, Smith, Maiden, Crone -- because the Seven are one. Sorry to go all Other-y. I do that too often.
I really like the idea of some Old Gods + Sevenist cross-mojination.
Thanks!
No apologies necessary; the notion that the Faith and the Others already have an extensive history is reasonable at the very least.
I wonder if Northerners have ignored the stylings of chivalry because in their eyes, the "true knights" are the men stuck guarding the Wall, or somewhere beyond it.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
I wonder if Northerners have ignored the stylings of chivalry because in their eyes, the "true knights" are the men stuck guarding the Wall, or somewhere beyond it.
Mayhaps?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I'm picturing Loras Tyrell, newly minted brother of the Night's Watch, pulling a Waymar and trying to challenge one of these dudes to a joust for the fate of the Wall. It's easy to see why tough Northerners are so dismissive of Westeros' largest military power. Even humble Ned just sort of rolls his eyes at the idea of southern chivalry. You can't afford to be so casually observant of sacred vows when these guys live next door.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
the notion that the Faith and the Others already have an extensive history is reasonable at the very least.
A pet theory of mine is that Andal warriors carved the seven-pointed star into their chests as a way of warding them against being raised as a wight after they fell in battle. It actually has a little bit of evidence from the text to support it:
“I fear no shade, ser. It is written in The Seven-Pointed Star that spirits, wights, and revenants cannot harm a pious man, so long as he is armored in his faith.”
That's a quote from Ser Bonifer the Good (he of the Holy Hundred) in Jaime 3 from AFFC & I think the implications are pretty clear, "armoured in his faith" c'mon ?
I'm picturing Loras Tyrell, newly minted brother of the Night's Watch, pulling a Waymar and trying to challenge one of these dudes to a joust for the fate of the Wall.
Post by Dornish Neck Tie on Sept 28, 2016 16:47:36 GMT
A certain tradition among knights of the Faith which represents some obvious cultural cross-pollination:
At dusk, the interior of the Great Sept of Baelor turned dim and eerie. The last light of day slanted down through the high windows, washing the towering likenesses of the Seven in a red gloom. Around their altars, scented candles flickered whilst deep shadows gathered in the transepts and crept silently across the marble floors. The echoes of the evensongs died away as the last mourners were departing. Balon Swann and Loras Tyrell remained when the rest had gone. "No man can stand a vigil for seven days and seven nights," Ser Balon said. "When did you last sleep, my lord?" "When my lord father was alive," said Jaime.
...
The sound echoed through the transepts and crypts and chapels, as if the dead interred within the walls were laughing too. Why not? This is more absurd than a mummer's farce, me standing vigil for a father I helped to slay, sending men forth to capture the brother I helped to free . . .
...
None of the devout paid Jaime any mind. They made a circuit of the sept, worshiping at each of the seven altars to honor the seven aspects of the deity. To each god they made sacrifice, to each they sang a hymn. Sweet and solemn rose their voices. Jaime closed his eyes to listen, but opened them again when he began to sway. I am more weary than I knew. It had been years since his last vigil. And I was younger then, a boy of fifteen years. He had worn no armor then, only a plain white tunic. The sept where he'd spent the night was not a third as large as any of the Great Sept's seven transepts. Jaime had laid his sword across the Warrior's knees, piled his armor at his feet, and knelt upon the rough stone floor before the altar. When dawn came his knees were raw and bloody. "All knights must bleed, Jaime," Ser Arthur Dayne had said, when he saw. "Blood is the seal of our devotion." With dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime's tunic, so he bled anew. He never felt it. A boy knelt; a knight rose. The Young Lion, not the Kingslayer. But that was long ago, and the boy was dead. - Jaime I, AFfC
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."