Absolutely fine with me. I'd like people to be able to participate as easily as possible in a big-picture discussion of Melisandre. I only posted in the Oathbreaker sub-board because I was watching that episode at the time.
Cool. I moved it on over.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Post by Dornish Neck Tie on Sept 25, 2016 18:21:08 GMT
voice,thanks for the move and the kind words! I'm looking forward to having a chance to sit down and respond fully. You may have noticed that I always love a chance to work Cersei into a discussion...ferreting out the humanity in folks like her and Mel is a fun way of recalibrating one's perspective on this saga.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Part of me wonders if she is even a Red Priestess. I know that is a strange thing to doubt, given her redness and priestess-ness. But we've seen no other Red Priestesses give birth to shadowbabies. That seems to be a different thing. And while we've seen others play with fire, and do cool stuff with tatoos, we've seen no others who have glamoured other people. At least, none that we know of.
If she isn't the priestess she pretends to be, then that might explain why she is so bad at reading the flames. Sure, she gets things right every once in a while, but any fool can see that Stannis was not born amid salt and smoke beneath a bleeding star.
So either she has gone out on that precarious limb due to error, or she has done so on purpose.
In spite of my doubts to her ability, I do lean towards the latter. And if she has purposefully proclaimed a false prince that was promised, I think it can only be that she has done so to obfuscate the solutions to the coming darkness and thereby harm the human cause in the Battle for Dawn.
It takes an-Other kind of person to willingly desecrate the sacred groves of Westeros, and give weirwood to the flames.
Interesting idea. It seems apparent that she is something of a black sheep within the Red Temple's ranks. Do you think she has completely forsaken her allegiance to the order, or that she was never a part of it to begin with? I don't think the "Melony, lot seven" memory is of her sale to the Red Temple; that would be a strange memory to be afraid of if she's a current devotee of R'hllor. I think this almost has to be a sale to another master that she has so far not introduced to us. Maybe she was bought and used for some black magic, like Varys was?
The possibility that she is lying about prophecy is also very interesting. Maybe Mel is actually the smartest one in the room, with a truer understanding of the natures of prophecies and archetypal hero figures than anyone else. She alone knows that it doesn't really matter who; all that matters is that someone hears a prophecy and allows it to govern their decision-making. Of course, this is a dangerously Machiavellian way of thinking; imagine the kind of danger that the weirwoods would face if the Lord of Dragonstone had a personality closer to Ramsay Bolton's, rather than the relative restraint and discipline of Stannis Baratheon. Maybe those best suited for these types of roles really are the boring, dutiful weenies who plague so much of the fantasy genre.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
This quote is oddly disturbing when one considers folks like Hodor and (probably) Aeron Damphair:
"A man can bear most anything, if he must," Jaime told his son. I have smelled a man roasting, as King Aerys cooked him in his own armor. "The world is full of horrors, Tommen. You can fight them, or laugh at them, or look without seeing . . . go away inside." Tommen considered that. "I . . . I used to go away inside sometimes," he confessed, "when Joffy . . ." "Joffrey." Cersei stood over them, the wind whipping her skirts around her legs. "Your brother's name was Joffrey. He would never have shamed me so." - Jaime I, AFfC
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
This quote is oddly disturbing when one considers folks like Hodor and (probably) Aeron Damphair:
"A man can bear most anything, if he must," Jaime told his son. I have smelled a man roasting, as King Aerys cooked him in his own armor. "The world is full of horrors, Tommen. You can fight them, or laugh at them, or look without seeing . . . go away inside." Tommen considered that. "I . . . I used to go away inside sometimes," he confessed, "when Joffy . . ." "Joffrey." Cersei stood over them, the wind whipping her skirts around her legs. "Your brother's name was Joffrey. He would never have shamed me so." - Jaime I, AFfC
*shudders*
Damn. I never even noticed that. Holy shit!
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I thought this part of your post was especially insightful.
But I think this illustrates that Mel has likely been corrupted by her lot (seven) in life. Cersei has gone to a very dark place because of her mistreatment. So has Dany, really. But back to Cersei, she eventually embraced the murder of husbands and children alike, torture, the execution of the innocent (Sansa's direwolf), and a general contempt for everyone but herself.
And like Mel, she also gave birth to a demon.
A far more dangerous demon, in truth.
So as beauty wanes, and insecurities mount, it seems both Mel and Cersei became willing to sacrifice humanity in order to benefit from unnatural forms of power (Qyburn & shadowbabies). And clearly, that sacrifice is not limited to their own humanity, but the lives and religions of other people as well.
Thanks! Cersei is a literal gold mine of emotional turmoil.
It's funny, I was about to speculate that Cersei's sacrifice of humanity (her own and others) could yield yet another unexpected magical catastrophe, but that would be completely at odds with the role I believe is being played out by the Lannister/King's Landing arc.
This part of the saga represents the human aspect of the story more than any other part; by removing any hint of magic from the Faith of the Seven, it allows us to focus on the ways human faith and ambition (their own sorts of magic, IMO) affect the world around us. Abominations don't require the use or omnipresence of magic in order to curse themselves; the world that men have built ensures that. Cersei unleashed the Faith Militant, which is made up of nothing more than men as far as we know, and they came back at her hard for her accursed crimes.
I definitely agree. And I think each qualifies as an oathbreaker, and a deserter of basic humanity.
And in keeping with Cersei's representation of the purely "human" consequences of such actions, she broke what seemed to be an unbreakable (if totally gross) bond:
"I need you. I need my other half." He could hear the rain pattering against the windows high above. "You are me, I am you. I need you with me. In me. Please, Jaime. Please." - Jaime I, AFfC
It seems that danger is not limited to men. I would add Lady Stoneheart to the list as well. I believe her origin provides us the answer to Mel's:
Human Catelyn died > Received Fire Kiss > Was reborn as Lady Stoneheart
Human Melony died > Received Fire Kiss > Was reborn as Melisandre
Each is blinded by obsession, and not exactly normal biologically speaking. Cat was revived after decay had taken her beauty, but Mel was revived when still beautiful. And, notably, Beric Dondarrion is the only other "person" we've ever seen with flammable blood. Considering he is responsible for Catelyn's second life, I propose that Cat and Mel are more alike than people know.
Just imagine what shadows might emerge from Lady Stoneheart's womb if a king gave her his seed.
A great line from the perspective of Merrett Frey, which certainly applies here:
The outlaws parted as she came forward, saying no word. When she lowered her hood, something tightened inside Merrett's chest, and for a moment he could not breathe. No. No, I saw her die. She was dead for a day and night before they stripped her naked and threw her body in the river. Raymund opened her throat from ear to ear. She was dead. Her cloak and collar hid the gash his brother's blade had made, but her face was even worse than he remembered. The flesh had gone pudding soft in the water and turned the color of curdled milk. Half her hair was gone and the rest had turned as white and brittle as a crone's. Beneath her ravaged scalp, her face was shredded skin and black blood where she had raked herself with her nails. But her eyes were the most terrible thing. Her eyes saw him, and they hated. "She don't speak," said the big man in the yellow cloak. "You bloody bastards cut her throat too deep for that. But she remembers." - Epilogue, ASoS
Melisandre never had any personal feelings of hatred toward either Renly Baratheon or Cortnay Penrose. This potential mother of shadows, however, has quite the personal agenda. I can't imagine how monstrous something born of this kind of hatred might be...
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Thanks! Cersei is a literal gold mine of emotional turmoil.
It's funny, I was about to speculate that Cersei's sacrifice of humanity (her own and others) could yield yet another unexpected magical catastrophe, but that would be completely at odds with the role I believe is being played out by the Lannister/King's Landing arc.
This part of the saga represents the human aspect of the story more than any other part; by removing any hint of magic from the Faith of the Seven, it allows us to focus on the ways human faith and ambition (their own sorts of magic, IMO) affect the world around us. Abominations don't require the use or omnipresence of magic in order to curse themselves; the world that men have built ensures that. Cersei unleashed the Faith Militant, which is made up of nothing more than men as far as we know, and they came back at her hard for her accursed crimes.
I agree, but must admit I have long hoped the Seven would prove to be more powerful than they have seemed thus far. Now I'm kinda hoping they are actually the same as "The Seven" wanderers in The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr.
And we can't forget the magic has always been a part of King's Landing. It was a city built by dragons, and the old powers are only just awakening. I think it only has that secular, magic-less feel to it today because there are no longer people flying around the city on dragons.
And in keeping with Cersei's representation of the purely "human" consequences of such actions, she broke what seemed to be an unbreakable (if totally gross) bond:
"I need you. I need my other half." He could hear the rain pattering against the windows high above. "You are me, I am you. I need you with me. In me. Please, Jaime. Please." - Jaime I, AFfC
She and Jaime were sworn to one another. And we know he was loyal to her.
But I don't know if that was ever true for her. She is a woman who knows how to take her pleasures. She appeased Robert. And even in terms of emotional-loyalty, we know that she lusted for Rhaegar even after feeling bound to Jaime.
She's not much different than Robert, now that I think about it. Married for political gain, sleeps around (though not to the same extent of course), condones the murder of the innocent, and yearns for a ghost.
A great line from the perspective of Merrett Frey, which certainly applies here:
The outlaws parted as she came forward, saying no word. When she lowered her hood, something tightened inside Merrett's chest, and for a moment he could not breathe. No. No, I saw her die. She was dead for a day and night before they stripped her naked and threw her body in the river. Raymund opened her throat from ear to ear. She was dead. Her cloak and collar hid the gash his brother's blade had made, but her face was even worse than he remembered. The flesh had gone pudding soft in the water and turned the color of curdled milk. Half her hair was gone and the rest had turned as white and brittle as a crone's. Beneath her ravaged scalp, her face was shredded skin and black blood where she had raked herself with her nails. But her eyes were the most terrible thing. Her eyes saw him, and they hated. "She don't speak," said the big man in the yellow cloak. "You bloody bastards cut her throat too deep for that. But she remembers." - Epilogue, ASoS
Melisandre never had any personal feelings of hatred toward either Renly Baratheon or Cortnay Penrose. This potential mother of shadows, however, has quite the personal agenda. I can't imagine how monstrous something born of this kind of hatred might be...
Agree. Mel was quick to smite Renly in the name of her cause just as Lady Stoneheart hangs Freys.
While LS seems more hateful, I'm not certain she is. Mel's brand of purpose often comes from a deep seeded hatred of something. In Mel's case, it seems to be Bloodraven or whatever Bloodraven represents. I'm not sure.
Lady Stoneheart is, like Mel, quite capable of doubt. Her questioning of Brienne (and eventual negotiation/ultimatum) speaks to this.
But neither woman demonstrates any uncertainty when it comes time to kill. Whether by noose or fire, the act of sentencing is completely untroubling for them. Unlike Ned in Bran I and Catelyn I AGOT, both seem to have forgotten what death is.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I really like the questions you are asking. Mel's conversion may not be that radical. Much of her life (maybe beginning around the time of "Lot 7") her central reality may have been that "The night is dark and full of terrors." Not only did the Red Priests teach Truth as she experienced it, they had tools to fight the darkness and terror. In becoming a Red Priestess, she wasn't switching sides, she was joining a team that shared her outlook.
Children who are exposed to a great deal of chaos and trauma often develop effective coping skills by adopting bright line rules, strong loyalties, and rigid structures. Consider Javert from La Miserables, or the success of Pentecostal and fundamentalist churches among people raised with addiction and other dysfunction. The offer effective tools to combat the chaos.
Thanks! The questions, I think, are the most important part of this thread. We can make plenty of guesses as to the specific details of Melisandre's origin story, but I think we're both in agreement on one key point: she has become a Red Priestess (willingly or no) as a direct result of the abuse and exploitation to which she was subjected in her youth. It's a phenomenon we've seen many times; the people who have nothing left to sell but their souls are the ones who fully embrace the unnatural. Off the top of my head, this seems to fit Melisandre, Arya, the Brotherhood without Banners, and the Faceless Men, particularly the story of the first Faceless Man.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
It's a phenomenon we've seen many times; the people who have nothing left to sell but their souls are the ones who fully embrace the unnatural. Off the top of my head, this seems to fit Melisandre, Arya, the Brotherhood without Banners, and the Faceless Men, particularly the story of the first Faceless Man.
An excellent and very astute point!
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
It's a phenomenon we've seen many times; the people who have nothing left to sell but their souls are the ones who fully embrace the unnatural. Off the top of my head, this seems to fit Melisandre, Arya, the Brotherhood without Banners, and the Faceless Men, particularly the story of the first Faceless Man.
An excellent and very astute point!
Whilst i agree with you, i do not see Arya in that boat. She went in for security then to facilitate her revenge agenda.
Would you fit Stannis in that lot... he sold his soul alright!
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Whilst i agree with you, i do not see Arya in that boat. She went in for security then to facilitate her revenge agenda.
I think in the case of Arya it's about before the HoBW. The Brotherwood. She saw a man die and come back. She didn't question it, didn't freak out. She wanted to know if it could work to bring her father back.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
Whilst i agree with you, i do not see Arya in that boat. She went in for security then to facilitate her revenge agenda.
Yes and no; I see revenge as her top priority in the foreseeable future specifically because everything else has been taken away from her: her family, her home, the privilege and reverence once afforded those with the name "Stark."I guess we'll have to wait and see what's left once the Faceless Men are finished with her...
Would you fit Stannis in that lot... he sold his soul alright!
Absolutely! Stannis is a powerful Lord Paramount with a great fortress, yet for a variety of reasons his only source of leverage has been reduced to an unnatural alliance with yet another abomination
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
While I rarely love what D&D do I have to say the scene where she says she's going home and then killing Frey gave me a joygasm. Perhaps I'll view those differently once I read the book version but for now they ma-ma-ma-make me happy.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
Stannis, described as like "cast iron", being involved with magic. It's a pun of sorts, or a telegraph if you prefer. Iron repels magic, but he looks to it for strength. Iron is eaten away by the sea, yet that is his seat. Why does Melisandra use him? Iron names excellent cannon balls??