Wait! I think I just got where you are going with this--either that or I'm crack potting. Either way: slow brain walking here.
LOL I've read enough of your posts to know your brain is anything but slow-walking. But yes, you definitely got where my thoughts were heading...and made them more plausible in the process:
BeautifulBacon's argument about the magic of the tent and the tower; the repeat of 7 against 3; the repeat in the novel of sacrifices that may not have been intended, but still end up being "death pays for life;" the magic in the tent takes TSTMTW, but the fight at the tower leaves Jon alive and with the man who will love him as his own and take him north, where he needs to be--Arthur wouldn't have to know that his death and/or the deaths of the others at the tower (7 against 3) could be a sacrifice for Jon (wherever Jon is). But it could still work.
I really like this. He wouldn't have to know. His death simply paid for Jon's life as SotM. Add to that Lyanna's death, and Jon has a double dose of "born with the dead." Two dead parents must be even better than One! LOL... seriously though, and not to co-opt even more Harry Potterisms, but the sacrifice of the parents, for the son, seems fitting, and empowering. The only other main character with such a tragic/tumultuous birth is Daenerys.
Is this how the Sword of the Morning is chosen? Or made? Is this why the constellation presents itself to Jon, glowing like the Wall?
I doubt this is how ALL Swords of the Morning are chosen, but it could be. In any case, I think it is indicative of how great Jon is esteemed by House Dayne. They have not named a new SotM in spite of worthy candidates, one of which is their own heir.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
LOL I've read enough of your posts to know your brain is anything but slow-walking. But yes, you definitely got where my thoughts were heading...and made them more plausible in the process:
I really like this. He wouldn't have to know. His death simply paid for Jon's life as SotM. Add to that Lyanna's death, and Jon has a double dose of "born with the dead." Two dead parents must be even better than One! LOL... seriously though, and not to co-opt even more Harry Potterisms, but the sacrifice of the parents, for the son, seems fitting, and empowering. The only other main character with such a tragic/tumultuous birth is Daenerys.
Yes, exactly. Dany loses her child--but gains dragons. So, the magical loss and gain is still there. Can't see that Jon has done this yet--made a blood sacrifice either by accident or on purpose--that ended up rewarding him with a magical life. Maybe whatever's going to happen with his becoming man wolf man will clarify this and the parallels will continue.
I doubt this is how ALL Swords of the Morning are chosen, but it could be. In any case, I think it is indicative of how great Jon is esteemed by House Dayne. They have not named a new SotM in spite of worthy candidates, one of which is their own heir.
Yeah, this probably isn't standard. But naming the Sword of the Morning--books haven't said HOW it works. But the Sword of the Morning "presents" itself to Jon in the Wall climbing chapter. He's despondent, worried about his role, trying to figure out when to kill Mance, how to get word to the Watch, etc. And feeling really guilty over Ygritte. Then--Dawn! Sword! Hope! The scene reads like a revelation.
I know Martin doesn't like to do parallels straight--but he does like parallels per se. Excalibur gets to Arthur in different ways in the legends. One: proves worthy by being able to extract from stone. Can't see where that might have happened to Jon--happy to be corrected.
But the Lady of the Lake--giving the sword to worthy in hour of need. Jon needs encouragement--sword presents--perhaps a prelude.
Plus Arthur Dayne--blood is the seal of our devotion. Yes, he meant the KG, but Jon has just sealed his devotion to the NW and the North and Winterfell with his blood.
Bottom line: does the sword have to present itself? The Daynes don't "choose." Only a worthy Dayne--does the sword choose? A magical presentation.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
One other thing re: sacrifice that is probably obvious:
For Dany: the son is inadvertently sacrificed for the father. Goes terribly wrong. Son never becomes his father's heir and impending stallion. BUT: Dany takes that sacrifice, adds Drogo and Mirri to the fire, and gets her big weapon and identity: dragons.
For Jon: father inadvertently sacrificed for the son (works best with Arthur but might also work for Rhaegar since he has Daynish blood)--and Jon has at least seen the Sword in the stars.
So, what does Jon need to do with his sacrifice to get the sword (assuming I am remotely on the right track)?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Yes, exactly. Dany loses her child--but gains dragons. So, the magical loss and gain is still there. Can't see that Jon has done this yet--made a blood sacrifice either by accident or on purpose--that ended up rewarding him with a magical life. Maybe whatever's going to happen with his becoming man wolf man will clarify this and the parallels will continue.
The white wolf on a field of black ice.
Dany's parents died + Dany's husband died + Dany's child died + Kills herself in Fire
= Rises from the Ashes, and is reborn as the Mother of Dragons
Jon's parents died + Jon's spearwife died + What was Jon's child?...Ghost? + Is Killed at the Wall
= Rises from the Cold, and is reborn as ??
The armored in black ice thing comes to mind, but I almost wonder if Jon will rise from the cold with other accoutrements and/or familiars. I mean, Dany got Dragons. It seems like our favorite bastard should get something cooler than just Dawn....
Yeah, this probably isn't standard. But naming the Sword of the Morning--books haven't said HOW it works. But the Sword of the Morning "presents" itself to Jon in the Wall climbing chapter. He's despondent, worried about his role, trying to figure out when to kill Mance, how to get word to the Watch, etc. And feeling really guilty over Ygritte. Then--Dawn! Sword! Hope! The scene reads like a revelation.
It does. Like an awakening... I can almost hear the music...
I know Martin doesn't like to do parallels straight--but he does like parallels per se. Excalibur gets to Arthur in different ways in the legends. One: proves worthy by being able to extract from stone. Can't see where that might have happened to Jon--happy to be corrected.
For Jon, I can't help think the sword is the Wall, and that the stone are Winterfell's crypts. But, it does seem like there should be something less symbolic and more real as well.
Plus Arthur Dayne--blood is the seal of our devotion. Yes, he meant the KG, but Jon has just sealed his devotion to the NW and the North and Winterfell with his blood.
Agreed. It seems he was destined to give his blood to the earth, as was his mother.
Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.
Bottom line: does the sword have to present itself? The Daynes don't "choose." Only a worthy Dayne--does the sword choose? A magical presentation.
Sounds good to me. It's fantasy after all, and the wolf pups were presented rather magically, even if not as obviously magical as Dany's ovulation. Is it coincidence that Jon Snow, the man with a weirwood colored direwolf with is bleeding under a bleeding star?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
So, what does Jon need to do with his sacrifice to get the sword (assuming I am remotely on the right track)?
His wolf. He will cease being a Stark and awaken as a Dayne. That would be heartbreaking since we've gotten so attached to Ghost, and I wouldn't put it past him. (Him meaning GRRM)
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
So, what does Jon need to do with his sacrifice to get the sword (assuming I am remotely on the right track)?
His wolf. He will cease being a Stark and awaken as a Dayne. That would be heartbreaking since we've gotten so attached to Ghost, and I wouldn't put it past him. (Him meaning GRRM)
That would suck, so prob. right. I was thinking maybe Ygritte was pregnant, but that wouldn't be a willing sacrifice because he didn't know. :-(
His wolf. He will cease being a Stark and awaken as a Dayne. That would be heartbreaking since we've gotten so attached to Ghost, and I wouldn't put it past him. (Him meaning GRRM)
That would suck, so prob. right. I was thinking maybe Ygritte was pregnant, but that wouldn't be a willing sacrifice because he didn't know. :-(
Maybe--but I keep spinning on Jon=SOM and I'm thinking maybe Jon is the sacrifice. He chose to sacrifice himself.
Dany offered to sacrifice herself for Drogo. Mirri said "not you" and "not horse." Dany went along with it--then blamed Mirri and did her own blood and fire sacrifice. Result: three dragons, no more babies.
But the Starks' sacrifices tend to either be in the line of duty with traces of old sacrifices, or sacrifice of self--Ned for Sansa.
Jon 's sacrifice is inadvertent--he didn't intend to sacrifice for his family, the North, and the Wall all at once. But he did it. Like the quotes about Arthur and Jaime above--Jaime suffered his own pain and bloody knees, the cut on the shoulder from Dawn that he didn't feel. Jon's been the sacrifice.
The Arthur-Jaime quotes also remind me of something. I've seen people reference an SSM where Martin said that Dawn will await until the next Sword of the Morning rises. Now, I can't find the SSM, so this may be sheer fabrication--but that language: "rise." Like Arthur raises Jaime after his sacrifice. Like Jon sees the Sword of the Morning in the sky after emerging from the cave with Ygritte (more on that later).
Bottom line: if any of this pans out, am thinking Jon is the sacrifice--that's part of what makes him different from Dany. Part of what makes him "worthy."
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
How does Jon sacrifice himself and become Dawn if he's dead? Or is he Un-Dawn? Or did he sacrifice himself by joining the watch and living a life of solitude, like a monk. He pretty much lost his friendships when he became LC, his old buddies mention he hasn't been the same around them lately.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Was thinking this is part of why the Dayne-Stark connecting matters: warging. Mel sees "man wolf man"--if Jon were like Ned (non-warg), then self-sacrifice=dead.
But if Jon wargs into Ghost, he stays "himself" (since Jon is Ghost and Ghost is Jon) until Martin figures out what to do with his body.
Could still see someone else making a sacrifice to bring him back. Or a sacrifice that ends up bringing him back--IE Mel and Shireen. But was just thinking that while Dany actively or passively sacrifices Viserys, and Rhaego, and Drogo, and Mirri--the Starks seem to self-sacrifice. For family and duty and honor.
Like Jon's just done. He didn't intend to, but still--he volunteers to risk his life for the Watch and the North and his sister. Self-sacrifice. ETA: This makes him "worthy." And then the next Sword of the Morning "rises."
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Was thinking this is part of why the Dayne-Stark connecting matters: warging. Mel sees "man wolf man"--if Jon were like Ned (non-warg), then self-sacrifice=dead.
But if Jon wargs into Ghost, he stays "himself" (since Jon is Ghost and Ghost is Jon) until Martin figures out what to do with his body.
Could still see someone else making a sacrifice to bring him back. Or a sacrifice that ends up bringing him back--IE Mel and Shireen. But was just thinking that while Dany actively or passively sacrifices Viserys, and Rhaego, and Drogo, and Mirri--the Starks seem to self-sacrifice. For family and duty and honor.
Like Jon's just done. He didn't intend to, but still--he volunteers to risk his life for the Watch and the North and his sister. Self-sacrifice. ETA: This makes him "worthy." And then the next Sword of the Morning "rises."
Maybe, maybe, maybe. . .
I just wanted to let you know that I really like where you're taking this. You've really been on a roll of figuring out this sacrifice stuff lately! As soon as I can get the cotton cleared from my brain, maybe I'll have more to add. I feel like there's an additional connection right there but I just can't grasp it. And though a Dayne connection takes me to a "happy place" in my mind, especially with there not being a SotM since Arthur's death, could this same "sacrificial" role work for anyone else as daddy? The other thing that keeps floating through my mind is Mithraism and the sacrificial white bull, which we apparently also have a KG present at the TOJ with this as a nickname? Sorry to ramble. Beginning to think my ear infection is going to my brain.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Dany's parents died + Dany's husband died + Dany's child died + Kills herself in Fire
= Rises from the Ashes, and is reborn as the Mother of Dragons
Jon's parents died + Jon's spearwife died + What was Jon's child?...Ghost? + Is Killed at the Wall
= Rises from the Cold, and is reborn as ??
The armored in black ice thing comes to mind, but I almost wonder if Jon will rise from the cold with other accoutrements and/or familiars. I mean, Dany got Dragons. It seems like our favorite bastard should get something cooler than just Dawn....
I'm thinking Jon might be getting a Martinesque version of the Greek descent into the underworld. He did just get Caesared, after all. Jon's already had revelatory moments--seeing Bran as tree. Seeing the Sword of the Morning. Am thinking he might rise again with information.
Agreed. It seems he was destined to give his blood to the earth, as was his mother.
Although he doesn't give it to the earth. He gives it to the Wall. He sees the Wall shining in the Dawn with the diamond Sword of the Morning. And now he's given his blood to it. Am thinking that could be interesting.
Sounds good to me. It's fantasy after all, and the wolf pups were presented rather magically, even if not as obviously magical as Dany's ovulation. Is it coincidence that Jon Snow, the man with a weirwood colored direwolf with is bleeding under a bleeding star?
Or coincidence that we finally have someone who self-sacrifices AND can rise again? Ned couldn't, though his sacrifice had consequences. Same with Quorin. Am very interested to see what Jon learns while wolfified.
I just wanted to let you know that I really like where you're taking this. You've really been on a roll of figuring out this sacrifice stuff lately! As soon as I can get the cotton cleared from my brain, maybe I'll have more to add. I feel like there's an additional connection right there but I just can't grasp it. And though a Dayne connection takes me to a "happy place" in my mind, especially with there not being a SotM since Arthur's death, could this same "sacrificial" role work for anyone else as daddy? The other thing that keeps floating through my mind is Mithraism and the sacrificial white bull, which we apparently also have a KG present at the TOJ with this as a nickname? Sorry to ramble. Beginning to think my ear infection is going to my brain.
Though it may be less of a roll and more of a fugue. Had no time to post but managed to turn myself into the de facto defender on an ALJ thread over on Westeros. No idea why I did that.
Re: Dayne: as I've been reminded of a few times, Rhaegar was part Daynish. Grandmother or something. And we don't know how SotM is chosen. Plus, I would love the irony if the Targs have been chasing prophecy in one way or another, only to find that it was the Daynish blood that mattered.
Re: Mithraism and white bull--I know nothing about mithraism other that it was a zoroastrian concept that got co-opted by some Romans. Anything specific you are thinking of?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
So were he and Lyanna already having an affair? I guess my real question is: how could anyone expect Lyanna to know that Rhaegar was giving her the crown in Arthur's place? To her (and everyone else there) it would have looked as though Rhaegar was hitting on her. How does that help Arthur's cause?
No idea--am assuming that if this happened, Arthur might have caught some hell from Lyanna afterwards. One way or another, giving those roses was stupid, whether Rhaegar or Arthur did it.
Perhaps... but did he have to die right then? Would it not have been better to stick around and keep an eye on the kid, maybe even teach and mentor him? Of course he couldn't admit that it was his child, but he could have taken the baby to Starfall, or let Ned foster him. And how did he get the other two KG to play along? If he was the one who needed to die, he could have met Ned alone.
Again, I realize this applies no matter who Jon's dad is, but the KG "sacrifice" idea really bothers me. Three fantastic knights, loyal to a fault, did not participate in protecting the royal family nor did they fight at the Trident. Instead, they are guarding a tower in the middle of nowhere. It doesn't seem, to me, that honor would compel them to pick a random place and wait for Ned to come kill them. They must have had a reason for being there- otherwise the honorable thing would have been to die for their cause in KL, or the Trident, or Storm's End... all the places Ned was surprised not to have found them.
I am more partial to the idea that Ned and Co. met the KG in the Prince's Pass vs. the KG had been there all along guarding the tower.
But the text doesn't say one way or another. If they've been guarding the tower, ALJ would be REALLY hard to make work.
The scene reads to me as emotional and Aerys focused--they only talk about and reference Aerys. Even imply Darry "fled," which seems harsh. But seems to fit with how angry they are about having been kept from king and from the Trident. Seems like this isn't sacrifice--or at least a knowing sacrifice--but a last stand. If they win, they'll continue. If not--they went down fighting. And that fits whether Jon's in the tower or not.
We've seen so many KG as conflicted and frustrated re: the "right" thing to do. If Arthur is Jon's father, am assuming he'd be fairly conflicted re: "daddy" vs. "KG." Perhaps Hightower gave him an order. But I agree--the fight at the tower is odd if Arthur=father. Just how despondent/angry was he? His sister also killed herself--is this a family trait? Am not trying to be flippant. . .
For me, one of the biggest ALJ problems is--where was Rhaegar? And why didn't he pipe up?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
No idea--am assuming that if this happened, Arthur might have caught some hell from Lyanna afterwards. One way or another, giving those roses was stupid, whether Rhaegar or Arthur did it.
Agreed. I have yet to see ANY scenario where this act is anything but incredibly stupid. By a man who Barristan describes as "above all, able" and who was one of the best-read and well-educated men in the Realm. Why, Rhaegar, WHY?!?
I am more partial to the idea that Ned and Co. met the KG in the Prince's Pass vs. the KG had been there all along guarding the tower.
This would be a better scenario (or at least more in support of ALJ). In this case, I suppose the KG could have been coming up from the south, and never planned to meet Ned and co. Could work- all that's missing is what they were doing in Dorne, but they could have, for example, been smuggling Aegon out of Westeros.
The scene reads to me as emotional and Aerys focused--they only talk about and reference Aerys. Even imply Darry "fled," which seems harsh. But seems to fit with how angry they are about having been kept from king and from the Trident. Seems like this isn't sacrifice--or at least a knowing sacrifice--but a last stand. If they win, they'll continue. If not--they went down fighting. And that fits whether Jon's in the tower or not.
This is how I generally view that scene. The fact that 5 of their 7 opponents were killed shows that they were fighting for real, not just sacrificing themselves. They almost won- and might have, if not for Howland Reed and whatever he did to save Ned.
We've seen so many KG as conflicted and frustrated re: the "right" thing to do. If Arthur is Jon's father, am assuming he'd be fairly conflicted re: "daddy" vs. "KG." Perhaps Hightower gave him an order. But I agree--the fight at the tower is odd if Arthur=father. Just how despondent/angry was he? His sister also killed herself--is this a family trait? Am not trying to be flippant. . .
Hehe, yeah that would be lame if they both died willingly. (Although we don't know that Ashara jumped from the tower. In the WB there are several example of girls- mostly Targaryens- who "may have jumped, or may have been pushed".)
For me, one of the biggest ALJ problems is--where was Rhaegar? And why didn't he pipe up?
Great point. And a problem for any theory that is not RLJ...
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Though it may be less of a roll and more of a fugue. Had no time to post but managed to turn myself into the de facto defender on an ALJ thread over on Westeros. No idea why I did that.
lol. I'll have to check it out!
Re: Dayne: as I've been reminded of a few times, Rhaegar was part Daynish. Grandmother or something. And we don't know how SotM is chosen. Plus, I would love the irony if the Targs have been chasing prophecy in one way or another, only to find that it was the Daynish blood that mattered.
I double checked the family tree in the world book. King Maekar was married to Lady Dyanna Dayne. This would make her Rhaegar's great great grandmother. The funny thing is, that she is also Robert Baratheon's great great grandmother.
Re: Mithraism and white bull--I know nothing about mithraism other that it was a zoroastrian concept that got co-opted by some Romans. Anything specific you are thinking of?
I can't say that I know a lot myself. Most of what I do know has been from the forums or quick looks at Wikipedia, etc. However, one of the big things linked to Mithraism seems to be the Taurotony. It depicts Mithras slaying a bull, usually depicted as white. Mithras does not want to slay the bull but is commanded to do so by, I think the sun god. The result of the sacrifice is food and bounty, etc. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but that was my very basic understanding of that part of it. The thing that I find strange is that it always seems to be depicted as a white bull and we have a character known as the White Bull. It may be completely unrelated, but it sticks in my brain for some reason. I will say that the majority of times I have seen the Taurotony referred to, it has been in relation to Jon Snow and his possible role as a corn king, so I may be well out in left field here.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
