Histories and Lore: House Dayne

specterace,markg171,voice,starfire,

Some light listening about House Dayne.

Mayhaps I'm overstating the expertise of Ned's party and horses, but I think they could make their way past some stones pretty easily. 

What you describe would smack of futility, to me. Like when someone pulls down a produce cart on a chase through some market town... It might create a minor inconvenience, but it is not exactly a military advantage that would tilt the outcome of the contest. 

It makes more sense to me for confident, found men, to simply stand their ground rather than litter the ground with some rocks. 



He had no bow in books nor show that I recall. 



Fair enough. I can only agree. 

I quoted "sad" because that was how Bran described Ned when speaking of Arthur, and I'm fond of the S.A.D. acronym (Ser Arthur Dayne). 

Thanks Wraith! I'll definitely check these out.






Nice! It sounds like a cool read. I take it that you are interested in the Dorne plot? Previously, my interests pointed solely North, but lately I found myself having more of an appreciation and interest for the Dorne plot. Lots of juicy details to be found in Dorne, IMO. And lemons.


It is an interesting thought. At that time though, didn't the Tyrells declare for the crown, as Mace was holding off Stannis at Storm's End? Personally, if I were Aerys I would be doubting Lewyn's loyalty regardless, considering the treatment of Elia by both himself and his son during the rebellion. I might even doubt his loyalty prior to the rebellion, if removing Aerys would make Elia queen. However, if Rhaegar had the support of the Reach in his plans to remove his father, and Aerys caught wind of it, I could certainly see that adding to his ideas of treason. In that case, perhaps Lewyn may have had a bit of an influence on the Reach in terms of support to put Rhaegar on the throne? Also, as a complete aside, I can't recall if the Hightowers sat out the Rebellion.

Arthur or Jon? Cause Jon definitely fought the battle of Castle Black with a bow.



Also nice inverse parallel there that three men in black cloaks were defending a round tower. Satin's even from Oldtown just like Hightower. Not sure if @superunknown5 had covered that in his Dayne essay.

As to Arthur, well no, nothing ever says he has a bow anywhere. But that again just shows how poorly thought out this all is if they didn't have one. You and 6 companions stole Lord Rickard Stark's daughter and Lord Robert Baratheon's betrothed. You knew you were outmanned from the very start, and 2 years later when you finally make your stand against the men who've come you're still not in any way actually prepared for that fight to actually have a decent shot of winning. That's ridiculous.

So is dying.



There's actually quite a few things there that you can play with as direct parallels and inverse ones, depending on certain interpretations

- Jon and co. are defending the King's Tower. Viserys was made heir and all, but if RLJ (and legitimate Jon) and Lyanna and Jon actually were at the TOJ, then the 3 KG were also defending what they saw as the the King's Tower
- Inversely though given that Viserys was the heir (and Rhaella had crowned him making him king too), then any child of Rhaegar's, or anybody's really, couldn't be the king, and therefore the 3 KG are defending the opposite of the King's Tower
- Or if you believe as you do that there was nothing in the tower, well there was nothing in the King's Tower either. Jon, Satin, and Dick were just defending that particular location
- Also, the tower had straw men placed on the merlons and in the windows to make it seem like there were more people there than there actually was. Again, if you believe that Lyanna/Jon/Wylla/whoever wasn't actually in the tower and instead simple that the text only suggests their presence (if that), then again you've got it making it only appear to be that there were more people there than there actually was
- The battle begins sometime after dusk, and Jon notes how the sky is at first a deep blood red where the sun is setting. Ned noted the sky was blood red at the TOJ too
- Jon also notes how the stars are coming out in the purple night sky. Purple and stars are the colours and sigil of House Dayne
- The attackers are Thenns, the most civilized of the northern wildlings. It was civilized northmen who came to the TOJ too
- The defenders of Castle Black are old men, cripples, and green recruits. Gerold and Whent were both old knights, Gerold has a bum hand, and Arthur is (likely) only young enough to have ever fought against the Kingswood Brotherhood and been in the Kingsguard for a few years
- Jon notes that the wildlings of course came at night, just like thieves. The KG, at least Arthur and Oswell, helped take Lyanna.
- Mole's town men are recruited for the battle, and Mole's Town men break against the attack. The Dornish were recruited for the Trident, and the Dornish broke against Lyn Corbray's assault
- The wildlings are being led by Styr, one of Mance Rayder's top commanders. The northmen were led by Ned, one of Robert's top commanders
- Jon Snow struggles with killing Ygritte and misses/holds back on opportunities to kill her when he has her in his sights. Arthur, at least in the show and possibly the books too, held back against Ned despite having him in his sights
- Jon watches 3 brothers in black cloaks with swords try and briefly make a stand on a landing, but the wildlings overthrow them. 3 men in white cloaks with swords tried to make a stand on a ridge, but the northmen overthrew them
- Styr is killed not in battle, but through trickery in a trap devised by Donal Noye. Arthur Dayne, at least in the show and possibly the books too, was killed by trickery from Howland Reed.
- Jon remembers how Eddard once told him that a soldier's life is never more in danger than when he flees as it drives his attacker's blood lust up. The 3 KG made their stand, specifically noting that they do not flee, and Ned is sad that he'll have to kill them

Suffice to say, there's a lot of stuff in there



All the more reason precisely for there to have been traps and archers. Real battles aren't noble affairs. Daemon Blackfyre dueled epicly with Gwayne Corbray, Valyrian steel against Valyrian steel, white cloak against Usurper, for an hour straight before he won. He then stopped the battle to assure that Gwayne received proper medical attention for fighting so well. While this was happening, Bloodraven snuck up on Daemon and shot him and his sons full of arrows, dishonourably killing them. Is that the proper noble end for Daemon after he just fought like the Warrior himself and displayed true honour in seeing to his fallen foe? Of course not. Yet that's what happened.

I've argued before that the TOJ dream itself is epic as GRRM wrote it that way, but the true events likely weren't as GRRM wrote Ned's internal conscious monologue on them and it's just a sad and bitter memory for him. The dream was epic, reality not so much. Why would 3 men willingly place themselves in such disadvantages, when they've been noted as great commanders who shouldn't be making such errors? Either they didn't and reality was different than the dream, or it leads to the next point which is that they weren't really trying to win.



But that's ultimately my point. They don't actually have any means to win, nor are they really attempting to. They brought knives to a knife fight like you said, but if they were truly attempting to win, or to place the royal heir Jon on the throne as some believe, well then they're doing everything wrong to actually have a shot at either outcome. On the other hand though, they're doing everything right if they're simply making a last stand to die honourably.

It would have to be the joyeuse Garde

It will sound hyper-critical, but what stands out to me is that this Tower is given proper noun treatment, and that Rhaegar's was not.

Good catch.