This wolf is rather upset at being forgotten about being on Team Dayne.
Lol I knew you were Team Dayne. I did forget to tag you tho...but so did markg171 , so I think it's all his fault.
Sure, shift the blame, shift the blame.
That said, I'm starting to think that mayhaps Ashara Dayne wasn't as apolitical a figure as we all know and love her.
It recently occurred to me that Elia Martell is sitting there in King's Landing having to endure her father-in-law's insults to her daughter "she smells Dornish", having to sit there as her husband gives attention to a Northern teenager while she is ignored while pregnant with his son, that she recently went to Dorne on a solo trip herself between Rhaenys and Aegon's births (so that Arianne could hold her niece as a babe), she gives birth to Aegon on Dragonstone and then she's left on Dragonstone by Rhaegar who then goes and promptly abducts the Northern teenager. And then she goes to King's Landing to find what's going on, only to discover she's now a "hostage" by her Father-in-law against her Uncle's (Prince Lewyn, a kingsguard) good behavior and ensuring Dorne won't back stab him (King Aerys).
This made me go... hmm, awfully "convenient" that when Ashara shows up in King's Landing as part of Elia's ladies in waiting she gets "outed" as being pregnant and summarily "dismissed" from court at King's Landing.
I wonder if it was just a "straight trip back to Starfall" for Ashara.
What I mean to say is, I'm starting to think Elia Martell is not the weak and innocent wronged wife or weak and "doesn't care while husband has his way with other women" kind of Dornish lady that most of the fandom sees her as. But instead that she might actually be a... oh, I don't know, a Martell? And by that I mean actually plotting, scheming, and having "agents" to perform her will for her, just like her two brothers have done and her niece Arianne as well.
And in this way House Dayne gets screwed over--Arthur being screwed over to do something he didn't want to do because of his oath to Rhaegar, originally based in friendship (and love for Elia); and Ashara being screwed over to do something SHE didn't want to do because of her loyalty to Elia, originally based in friendship. Perhaps their stories are a cautionary tale of how duty, love, and friendship DO NOT MIX WELL together, and causes good people to do bad things that they don't want to do (like most of this series).
It would go a long way to explaining why House Dayne all of a sudden has a marriage alliance outside of Dorne with a Marcher Stormlord house (Dondarrion) by A Game of Thrones, as well as why the heir and subsequently Lord of the House is squire to said Marcher Stormlord (Beric). And remember a Marcher Stormlord is a Stormlord whose lands BORDER DORNE, so that means they have a long history of fighting them.
Methinks Arthur and Ashara got screwed by Rhaegar and Elia respectively because Rhaegar and Elia each used their friendships/love that Arthur and Ashara had for them in order to get them to do things that they did not want to do, and this misuse by House Martell and the Targaryens have caused House Dayne to withdraw from Dornish and Westerosi politics. And by seeking alliance outside of Dorne with lords who are traditionally enemies of Dorne, makes me think that House Dayne and House Martell aren't on good terms anymore. Oh sure everyone is still "loyal" as sworn banners, but if push came to shove...
And it's also interesting when you consider that Doran Martell is doing everything he can to isolate House Dayne, and I'm beginning to wonder if the way House Dayne comes into the story isn't by being revealed to be on the outs with House Martell (now I have a reason to look forward to Areo Hotah chapters--because I think HE is going to Starfall).
Now what did Ashara specifically do that she didn't find exactly savory? Perhaps she was sent to try and break a deal with the rebels? Or perhaps she was sent to try and tempt Ned to break off of the Rebel cause? Elia was at Harrenhal, she would have seen the whole Ned too shy to ask Ashara to dance himself debacle and likely talked about it with Ashara later innocently enough.
At best case Elia was perhaps trying to get the rebels to support a heel turn and redirect the rebellion so that they would fight for Rhaegar and give Rhaegar an opportunity to overthrow his father. At worst case, Elia was perhaps trying to break apart the rebels by causing the "honorable" Ned to stray (a la Jeyne Westerling & Robb) and thus break apart the North from the STAB alliance? And if Ashara did that worst case scenario, might that not explain why Ned is so angry when Ashara's name is mentioned or doesn't bother to think of her when Cersei brings her up? I.E. He was hurt by Ashara because she was put in a tough situation. A situation he understands, but at the same time cannot forgive?
Essentially in summation: Elia wasn't just sitting around twiddling her thumbs and waiting for someone to come and rescue her, she was working with the tools she had available to her to try and solve her "being held hostage by Aerys and having my husband run off unexpectedly" situation. Additionally, depending upon when Ashara leaves it can be in response to Aegon being disinherited for bonus points.
And of course by the time Ashara arrives to do whatever it was that she was tasked, the situation has changed during her travels and the politics of the situation no longer favor what she was sent to do. Leaving her to attempt, fail, and ride back to Starfall in shame.
Perhaps, if Ashara Dayne did kill herself, perhaps it was out of a feeling of guilt of what she had done and Ned's being honorable in bringing the sword back (after running around with it for a few months) shamed her into the act?
Post by whitewolfstark on Dec 21, 2016 19:20:42 GMT
Another thing to consider: how do we know that Ashara enjoyed herself at Harrenhal? Let's take a look at that dance card one more time.
A whitesword (either her brother Arthur, or Barristan) A Red Snake (Oberyn Martell) The Lord of Griffons (Jon Connington) The Quiet Wolf (Ned Stark)
I think Barristan is knocked out of the running, quite honestly with this thought:
"She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either."
I.E. Barristan never made a move.
So that leaves her dance card as such:
Arthur (who's being a good brother) Oberyn (who's likely dancing with her because he's been away and just got back and wants info on Elia?) Jon Con (why is HE dancing with Ashara? Perhaps it was to a song that Rhaegar was playing?) Ned Stark (well, we know that there had to be a crush at least, because Ned was too embarrassed to ask for himself)
So, if you stop to think about it, who is dancing with Ashara because they're interested in HER? Arthur would be doing brotherly duty. Barristan we can take a big hint never made a move. Oberyn could have been using Ashara as a go between him and Elia to convey information or find out the truth of how his sister has been feeling since he's presumably returned from Essos (the many adventures of Oberyn Martell). Jon Con... Jon Con dancing with her comes out of nowhere for me unless it's to a song that Rhaegar's playing, LOL. And Brandon asks Ashara to dance, only for her to be let down that it's on his younger brother's behalf.
Just trying to see Harrenhal from a different perspective here. I mean it theoretically could have been a situation where Ashara was SO lovely, that no one dared come near her who didn't have some kind of motive, and that might have been hell to live with.
Another thing to consider, Ashara's being a Lady in Waiting to a pregnant Elia at this point, this might have been her "night off" so to speak to enjoy herself... and she gets a mehh of a night in reward.
If you can't tell, I have a fan fic I'm writing which is exploring Asahara and her role in the Rebellion from all these different angles a bit more as I try to wrap my brain around a few gaps in the Rebellion that need... hmm... filling.
Mostly though, I like the idea that Ashara might have gone in to that dance at Harrenhal thinking that it's going to be "a lovely night" only to be disappointed that the only people who danced with her were her brother, her best friend's brother who's more interested in what's going on with her best friend, her best friend's husband's best friend who is not so secretly holding a torch for best friend's husband, and finally when she seems to be asked by someone who might meet expectations... it turns out he's asking for his gawky, awkward, and quiet younger brother.
Lol I knew you were Team Dayne. I did forget to tag you tho...but so did markg171 , so I think it's all his fault.
Sure, shift the blame, shift the blame.
That said, I'm starting to think that mayhaps Ashara Dayne wasn't as apolitical a figure as we all know and love her.
It recently occurred to me that Elia Martell is sitting there in King's Landing having to endure her father-in-law's insults to her daughter "she smells Dornish", having to sit there as her husband gives attention to a Northern teenager while she is ignored while pregnant with his son, that she recently went to Dorne on a solo trip herself between Rhaenys and Aegon's births (so that Arianne could hold her niece as a babe), she gives birth to Aegon on Dragonstone and then she's left on Dragonstone by Rhaegar who then goes and promptly abducts the Northern teenager. And then she goes to King's Landing to find what's going on, only to discover she's now a "hostage" by her Father-in-law against her Uncle's (Prince Lewyn, a kingsguard) good behavior and ensuring Dorne won't back stab him (King Aerys).
This made me go... hmm, awfully "convenient" that when Ashara shows up in King's Landing as part of Elia's ladies in waiting she gets "outed" as being pregnant and summarily "dismissed" from court at King's Landing.
I wonder if it was just a "straight trip back to Starfall" for Ashara.
What I mean to say is, I'm starting to think Elia Martell is not the weak and innocent wronged wife or weak and "doesn't care while husband has his way with other women" kind of Dornish lady that most of the fandom sees her as. But instead that she might actually be a... oh, I don't know, a Martell? And by that I mean actually plotting, scheming, and having "agents" to perform her will for her, just like her two brothers have done and her niece Arianne as well.
And in this way House Dayne gets screwed over--Arthur being screwed over to do something he didn't want to do because of his oath to Rhaegar, originally based in friendship (and love for Elia); and Ashara being screwed over to do something SHE didn't want to do because of her loyalty to Elia, originally based in friendship. Perhaps their stories are a cautionary tale of how duty, love, and friendship DO NOT MIX WELL together, and causes good people to do bad things that they don't want to do (like most of this series).
It would go a long way to explaining why House Dayne all of a sudden has a marriage alliance outside of Dorne with a Marcher Stormlord house (Dondarrion) by A Game of Thrones, as well as why the heir and subsequently Lord of the House is squire to said Marcher Stormlord (Beric). And remember a Marcher Stormlord is a Stormlord whose lands BORDER DORNE, so that means they have a long history of fighting them.
Methinks Arthur and Ashara got screwed by Rhaegar and Elia respectively because Rhaegar and Elia each used their friendships/love that Arthur and Ashara had for them in order to get them to do things that they did not want to do, and this misuse by House Martell and the Targaryens have caused House Dayne to withdraw from Dornish and Westerosi politics. And by seeking alliance outside of Dorne with lords who are traditionally enemies of Dorne, makes me think that House Dayne and House Martell aren't on good terms anymore. Oh sure everyone is still "loyal" as sworn banners, but if push came to shove...
And it's also interesting when you consider that Doran Martell is doing everything he can to isolate House Dayne, and I'm beginning to wonder if the way House Dayne comes into the story isn't by being revealed to be on the outs with House Martell (now I have a reason to look forward to Areo Hotah chapters--because I think HE is going to Starfall).
Now what did Ashara specifically do that she didn't find exactly savory? Perhaps she was sent to try and break a deal with the rebels? Or perhaps she was sent to try and tempt Ned to break off of the Rebel cause? Elia was at Harrenhal, she would have seen the whole Ned too shy to ask Ashara to dance himself debacle and likely talked about it with Ashara later innocently enough.
At best case Elia was perhaps trying to get the rebels to support a heel turn and redirect the rebellion so that they would fight for Rhaegar and give Rhaegar an opportunity to overthrow his father. At worst case, Elia was perhaps trying to break apart the rebels by causing the "honorable" Ned to stray (a la Jeyne Westerling & Robb) and thus break apart the North from the STAB alliance? And if Ashara did that worst case scenario, might that not explain why Ned is so angry when Ashara's name is mentioned or doesn't bother to think of her when Cersei brings her up? I.E. He was hurt by Ashara because she was put in a tough situation. A situation he understands, but at the same time cannot forgive?
Essentially in summation: Elia wasn't just sitting around twiddling her thumbs and waiting for someone to come and rescue her, she was working with the tools she had available to her to try and solve her "being held hostage by Aerys and having my husband run off unexpectedly" situation. Additionally, depending upon when Ashara leaves it can be in response to Aegon being disinherited for bonus points.
And of course by the time Ashara arrives to do whatever it was that she was tasked, the situation has changed during her travels and the politics of the situation no longer favor what she was sent to do. Leaving her to attempt, fail, and ride back to Starfall in shame.
Perhaps, if Ashara Dayne did kill herself, perhaps it was out of a feeling of guilt of what she had done and Ned's being honorable in bringing the sword back (after running around with it for a few months) shamed her into the act?
What I mean to say is, I'm starting to think Elia Martell is not the weak and innocent wronged wife or weak and "doesn't care while husband has his way with other women" kind of Dornish lady that most of the fandom sees her as.
Agreed. Especially if her husband gets a child on the woman he is away with, said child could eventually be a threat to her own royal children's inheritance.
At best case Elia was perhaps trying to get the rebels to support a heel turn and redirect the rebellion so that they would fight for Rhaegar and give Rhaegar an opportunity to overthrow his father.
I could see this, but only if she tried to use Ashara to broker a deal with the North at Harenhall. Although, even in this case, I do not know how much influence Ned or Brandon would have over Lord Rickard, since Rickard calls the shots. It seems like Lord Rickard had his own plans to try to strengthen House Stark's alliances, so I'm not sure how much influence Ned or Brandon would have in the situation. However, if it were during the war when Ned is the Lord of Winterfell, there is a better chance for a peace deal, in the sense that Ned now calls the shots. But, given the reason the rebels are fighting the war, I can't see Ned breaking alliance with Robert, Jon Arryn, or Hoster Tully, even if he loved Ashara.
Perhaps, if Ashara Dayne did kill herself, perhaps it was out of a feeling of guilt of what she had done and Ned's being honorable in bringing the sword back (after running around with it for a few months) shamed her into the
That would be very sad. I'm not entirely sure where I stand with Ashara (ie-dead or alive), but I lean more towards alive. In the case of Ashara being alive, I often wonder if Ned offered her the same option he gave Cersei in the Godswood, which was to flee. Maybe for her own safety, or in a scenario as you suggested where she may have done something that warranted her being brought to justice?
And it's also interesting when you consider that Doran Martell is doing everything he can to isolate House Dayne, and I'm beginning to wonder if the way House Dayne comes into the story isn't by being revealed to be on the outs with House Martell (now I have a reason to look forward to Areo Hotah chapters--because I think HE is going to Starfall).
Yes! I am on board! Absent from the feast when The Mountain's skull is presented and absent from Oberyn's traveling party to Joff and Margery's wedding. I know that the Lord of Starfall is 12 and busy squiring for Beric (another great point that you bring up in your post), but Allyria Dayne seems old enough to represent her house at such events.
And what's up with the High Hermitage Branch? I have wondered what it is about Darkstar that Doran considers him so dangerous. I doubt it is just because of his swordsmanship. Also, Daemon Sand (I think) tells Arianne that it is a pity that Oberyn didn't get around to killing Darkstar. It makes me wonder if House Dayne of Starfall and/or the High Hermitage Branch have information that can screw over House Martell and any plans that Doran may have in the works.
Very interesting discussion! I have just watched these Lore video's yesterday, and I focused on the House Dayne and Harrenhal videos the most. It is very interesting to me how the show picks and chooses what they make show canon from book canon. How will it tie into the endgame. This video in particular made me go "huh"? It seems so weirdly out of character. All that glamorous stuff about Ned idealizing Dawn and the Sword of the Morning, makes him sound like a 7 year old Bran, not a man who just fought a bloody rebellion. But House Dayne is cool and I used to think that Ned's mother was a Dayne, until TWOIAF sunk that ship like the Titanic.
I have always felt like the "suicide by police" fit the Kingsguard at the ToJ, but the book imagery (an obviously surreal experience) is very different from the show (a surreal dream presented as fact except the number of people involved (C'mon HBO, just pay 2 more actors, already!)) or this House Dayne video. I don't know about Arthur, or that sword, or how any of this ties together, but it just seemed very odd! I just know that the Sword of the Morning idea is so damn cool, why would we not want that for Jon? But we don't often get what we want in this series, and I don't know why things would change now. Maybe Dany is the SofM? Or Drogon? Or Hot Pie?
I have felt for a long time that so much of the Dayne imagery shows up in Dany's story (as well as Rhaegar drops) that Dany must be very connected to Ashara/Rhaegar. But possibly, GRRM is just feeding us the information for Jon's parentage in Dany's story, and vice versa, to throw us off the trail!
Essentially in summation: Elia wasn't just sitting around twiddling her thumbs and waiting for someone to come and rescue her, she was working with the tools she had available to her to try and solve her "being held hostage by Aerys and having my husband run off unexpectedly" situation.
I like this idea. The books have shown us that people from Dorne are planners and schemers, and why should we think Elia is any different. Heck, her brother Doran is not afraid to play the "loooong con" and Oberyn is devious as shit. I haven't given Elia much thought at all besides her brutal murder by Gregor and that she was sickly, but maybe I need too. Especially if she had more to do with Varys than Varys let's on. Got my mind thinking about possibilities!
I also I like the thought of House Martell and House Dayne being on the outs, or at least having some tension, like with Houses Yronwood and Martell.
That would be very sad. I'm not entirely sure where I stand with Ashara (ie-dead or alive), but I lean more towards alive. In the case of Ashara being alive, I often wonder if Ned offered her the same option he gave Cersei in the Godswood, which was to flee. Maybe for her own safety, or in a scenario as you suggested where she may have done something that warranted her being brought to justice?
I really like this idea because the story seems to show us how the past repeats itself or people repeat the actions of the past. So, Ned did offer Cersei a chance, because he did not want to see her children murdered (I doubt he gave two shits about Cersei, but he see's children as innocent, even that awful Joffrey!). So it makes sense that he gave Ashara a similar chance, to save herself and her child(ren), but she took him up on the offer. It fit's Ned's arc if there was a child involved, that he wanted to spare the child (especially after recently seeing what happened to Rhaenys and Aegon). If Ashara did something to get herself in a mess, I think he would let her deal with the consequences, but if a child was involved, he gave them a chance for exile. This is very intriguing!
Ashara disappears, a presumed suicide after her child dies stillborn, is a nice story, but it never seemed believable. But Ashara in exile with her child, is a whole different can of worms. And might explain why House Dayne does not seem to hate Ned, because he gave Ashara a chance. But was it because he loved her? I don't know, as I have always doubted the love interest between Ashara and Ned or Brandon (although Brandon sounds like a hottie).
There is much more to Harrenhal than we know and it does seem likely that Ashara was in on some plot. A plot that Howland Reed seemed to be monitoring closely. I had always assumed if this is the case, she was helping Rhaegar, but maybe it was Elia she was helping, or maybe she was caught between the two of them. So many possibilities!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.