Post by whitewolfstark on Dec 13, 2016 13:50:11 GMT
I've been enjoying this discussion of how the chaos of GRRM's writing style is examined as being chaotic--and not the firm logical foundation we thought:
This is an interesting video. I always enjoy hearing other's ideas and analysis of the text.
Some points from the video that stuck out to me:
1) Ned not being a "paragon of virtue" I have to agree with that statement. Don't get me wrong, I love Ned, and compared to the other characters in the book, he does try to act with honor and do what he thinks is right. However, he is not perfect. Heck, even in Ned's own POVs he admits he has made many mistakes, has lingering guilt, etc. Sometimes it seems that readers tend to view Ned as infallible, but I'm not sure why.
2) Brandon being a serial rapist and a terrible guy What? Wow! I have to say, I never really thought of Brandon in that way. I always viewed him as more of a young guy who liked to have sex with different women, but it never crossed my mind that he may have taken some of those women without their permission. I don't know, perhaps I am being a little naïve? I thought his sexy time with Lady Barbrey was consensual? Anyway, the gentleman in the video gives some ideas of how he came to this analysis, so I'll have to give it a bit more of a think.
1) Ned not being a "paragon of virtue" I have to agree with that statement. Don't get me wrong, I love Ned, and compared to the other characters in the book, he does try to act with honor and do what he thinks is right. However, he is not perfect. Heck, even in Ned's own POVs he admits he has made many mistakes, has lingering guilt, etc. Sometimes it seems that readers tend to view Ned as infallible, but I'm not sure why.
Agreed. Ned would have been quite boring without his guilt. The dude was a known traitor to the crown of the dragonkings.
2) Brandon being a serial rapist and a terrible guy What? Wow! I have to say, I never really thought of Brandon in that way. I always viewed him as more of a young guy who liked to have sex with different women, but it never crossed my mind that he may have taken some of those women without their permission. I don't know, perhaps I am being a little naïve? I thought his sexy time with Lady Barbrey was consensual? Anyway, the gentleman in the video gives some ideas of how he came to this analysis, so I'll have to give it a bit more of a think.
Yeah, I thought it was consensual too. A man can initiate sexual rendezvous without it being rape. Unless I'm forgetting some details, methinks this is a far too-narrow interp.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
1) Ned not being a "paragon of virtue" I have to agree with that statement. Don't get me wrong, I love Ned, and compared to the other characters in the book, he does try to act with honor and do what he thinks is right. However, he is not perfect. Heck, even in Ned's own POVs he admits he has made many mistakes, has lingering guilt, etc. Sometimes it seems that readers tend to view Ned as infallible, but I'm not sure why.
Agreed. Ned would have been quite boring without his guilt. The dude was a known traitor to the crown of the dragonkings.
2) Brandon being a serial rapist and a terrible guy What? Wow! I have to say, I never really thought of Brandon in that way. I always viewed him as more of a young guy who liked to have sex with different women, but it never crossed my mind that he may have taken some of those women without their permission. I don't know, perhaps I am being a little naïve? I thought his sexy time with Lady Barbrey was consensual? Anyway, the gentleman in the video gives some ideas of how he came to this analysis, so I'll have to give it a bit more of a think.
Yeah, I thought it was consensual too. A man can initiate sexual rendezvous without it being rape. Unless I'm forgetting some details, methinks this is a far too-narrow interp.
Or a more modern one--one where the idea that a man in power who uses his position (as heir of the North) to have his way with the ladies...is always rape.
But thematically it does oddly make a lot of sense as part of the whole Stark + Stark = Jon theory. It would make sense why Lyanna would "run away", and why Brandon reacted so violently like he did.
Or at least it'd be a great boot stomp on the whole "Jon is Azor Ahai reborn" crowd that's formed.
Or a more modern one--one where the idea that a man in power who uses his position (as heir of the North) to have his way with the ladies...is always rape.
But thematically it does oddly make a lot of sense as part of the whole Stark + Stark = Jon theory. It would make sense why Lyanna would "run away", and why Brandon reacted so violently like he did.
interesting thoughts.
here is a bit of text:
Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain. "The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together …
the first highlight does support the 'serial rapist' proposal.
the second highlight does not support the 'Brandon fathered Rob' suggestion, IMO.
having said that, the idea that Martin's improvisations leaves threads that may eventually foreshadow nothing goes a long way to explain the numerous loose ends.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
He had some good points such as the fact that Ned's description often doesn't fit his actions, that there are tons of abandoned plots because GRRM is making this up as he goes, but he completely lost me at Brandon being a serial rapist, as well as that Catelyn had sex with him and Robb is their child.
Edmure did not take that well. The next day he avoided her entirely on the march, preferring the company of Marq Piper, Lymond Goodbrook, Patrek Mallister, and the young Vances. They do not scold him, except in jest, Catelyn told herself when they raced by her that afternoon with nary a word. I have always been too hard with Edmure, and now grief sharpens my every word. She regretted her rebuke. There was rain enough falling from the sky without her making more. And was it really such a terrible thing, to want a pretty wife? She remembered her own childish disappointment, the first time she had laid eyes on Eddard Stark. She had pictured him as a younger version of his brother Brandon, but that was wrong. Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber. He spoke courteously enough, but beneath the words she sensed a coolness that was all at odds with Brandon, whose mirths had been as wild as his rages. Even when he took her maidenhood, their love had more of duty to it than of passion. We made Robb that night, though; we made a king together. And after the war, at Winterfell, I had love enough for any woman, once I found the good sweet heart beneath Ned's solemn face. There is no reason Edmure should not find the same, with his Roslin.
Catelyn herself tells us she was a virgin when she had sex with Ned. Brandon is not Robb's father unless you just accept that Catelyn herself didn't know whether or not she was a virgin or not. Not to mention that she says that Robb had a standard 9 month pregnancy
Ned had lingered scarcely a fortnight with his new bride before he too had ridden off to war with promises on his lips. At least he had left her with more than words; he had given her a son. Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south. She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. Her son. He had been so small …
Cat was a virgin before Ned, and Robb was born when he should've been born, and not months earlier like would be necessary if he were Brandon's child. Robb is Ned and Catelyn's child, there's really no debate on it unless Catelyn herself just completely lied to herself in her own head.
And as to Brandon being a rapist or sex hound, the fandom has created this extremely weird idea that Brandon fucked every girl he ever saw or knew, when we only actually know that he fucked Barbrey Dustin. A willing girl. No Barbrey was not raped, and her comment about Brandon taking what he wanted was not at all supposed to imply that - simply that Brandon actually did chase after girls he liked instead of doing nothing about it (like how Ned couldn't muster up the courage to ask Ashara to dance while Brandon had no problem going over there and asking for him - because that was the type of guy Brandon was). That's literally it. The author has said Brandon wasn't a virgin and possibly fathered a few Snows, but that doesn't mean he was a guy going around fucking every girl he ever saw, whether they consented or not. We've literally only got a single girl who actually had sex with him, when from the way a lot of the fandom characterizes him you'd think all of Winterfell had him, and plenty of other towns besides. It's one girl who's actually confirmed/speculated to have fucked him. Ned's literally linked to more girls than that.
Nor was he an asshole. Brandon Stark did know honor, to some extents. He showed up to his duel with LF and removed most of his armour when he saw that LF couldn't afford a full set like he could. He agreed not to kill him when it was perfectly acceptable, and while knowing full well that LF wouldn't be showing him that same kind of restraint. He kept his word too, asking him dozens of times to yield, and then ending the fight with a blow to LF's armour, that was only as nearly fatal as it was precisely because LF was poor and had shitty armour in the first place. Even his reaction to Lyanna caused Hoster to call Brandon gallant. A gallant fool perhaps, but gallant.
But all of this ultimately does lead into another point. Brandon was portrayed at the start as a capable man ("All of this was meant for Brandon... Brandon would know what to do"), a fairly honourable and gallant guy, as well as more wolfish than his brother Ned. Yes, there is indeed an important comparison being made in the series that people examine Ned based on who else was around to compare him to. That doesn't mean though that some of them are wrong, and only certain characteristics of Brandon were real. They were ALL real. Ned himself never shied away from the fact that Brandon was an asshole while he praised him for his other qualities. Neither did Catelyn. Nobody really paints this perfect portray of Brandon... because he wasn't. Ned was better than him in some regards, and Brandon was better than him in others. Had Brandon lived there certainly would be different stories painted about which brother was what, and who became known for what qualities as you can't just ignore that Ned ended up living the far more prolific life than Brandon did precisely because Brandon died and how he died, it's just not a fair comparison then. That doesn't mean they didn't still have those qualities themselves or weren't deserving of praise for themselves, and that things could've turned out enormously different.
There is a case to be made that Ned is praised in comparison to others, and particularly Brandon, but it can simply be ignored that people are talking about a specific trait or instance when this is happening, and that Ned being "better" at this doesn't mean that it was a complete washout for Ned > Brandon/others.
Now is that to say that there may have been some earlier possibilities that Robb was Brandon's child? Possibly. I don't know what passage he's talking in the video about Robb looking like his father or whatever (there's a passage where she does say he looks like Ned when he gets serious), but I know there are earlier passages at the Battle of the Whispering Wood that talk about how Catelyn wishes that tall Robb will grow even taller, and in particular as tall as his father one day, while we also know that Cat told us that Ned wasn't really tall, and that Brandon was taller than Ned. That could be a point in favour of Cat/Brandon, and some early groundwork. But when then Catelyn mentions the other stuff that proves that Robb is Ned's son, well then that's the very definition of an abandoned plot.
GRRM can lay whatever he wants early on, but when he eventually lays down a definite piece of information that contradicts it later, then you know the plot is dead. There are open ended plots and ideas that GRRM left open, but some of them don't require us to speculate whether or not they're still possibilities.
So I agree on the fact that there are open ended stories, mis-characterization around, foreshadowings of nothing, etc., but not really what he seems to think constitutes most of any of that.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
He had some good points such as the fact that Ned's description often doesn't fit his actions, that there are tons of abandoned plots because GRRM is making this up as he goes, but he completely lost me at Brandon being a serial rapist, as well as that Catelyn had sex with him and Robb is their child.
Edmure did not take that well. The next day he avoided her entirely on the march, preferring the company of Marq Piper, Lymond Goodbrook, Patrek Mallister, and the young Vances. They do not scold him, except in jest, Catelyn told herself when they raced by her that afternoon with nary a word. I have always been too hard with Edmure, and now grief sharpens my every word. She regretted her rebuke. There was rain enough falling from the sky without her making more. And was it really such a terrible thing, to want a pretty wife? She remembered her own childish disappointment, the first time she had laid eyes on Eddard Stark. She had pictured him as a younger version of his brother Brandon, but that was wrong. Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber. He spoke courteously enough, but beneath the words she sensed a coolness that was all at odds with Brandon, whose mirths had been as wild as his rages. Even when he took her maidenhood, their love had more of duty to it than of passion. We made Robb that night, though; we made a king together. And after the war, at Winterfell, I had love enough for any woman, once I found the good sweet heart beneath Ned's solemn face. There is no reason Edmure should not find the same, with his Roslin.
Catelyn herself tells us she was a virgin when she had sex with Ned. Brandon is not Robb's father unless you just accept that Catelyn herself didn't know whether or not she was a virgin or not. Not to mention that she says that Robb had a standard 9 month pregnancy
Ned had lingered scarcely a fortnight with his new bride before he too had ridden off to war with promises on his lips. At least he had left her with more than words; he had given her a son. Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south. She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. Her son. He had been so small …
Cat was a virgin before Ned, and Robb was born when he should've been born, and not months earlier like would be necessary if he were Brandon's child. Robb is Ned and Catelyn's child, there's really no debate on it unless Catelyn herself just completely lied to herself in her own head.
And as to Brandon being a rapist or sex hound, the fandom has created this extremely weird idea that Brandon fucked every girl he ever saw or knew, when we only actually know that he fucked Barbrey Dustin. A willing girl. No Barbrey was not raped, and her comment about Brandon taking what he wanted was not at all supposed to imply that - simply that Brandon actually did chase after girls he liked instead of doing nothing about it (like how Ned couldn't muster up the courage to ask Ashara to dance while Brandon had no problem going over there and asking for him - because that was the type of guy Brandon was). That's literally it. The author has said Brandon wasn't a virgin and possibly fathered a few Snows, but that doesn't mean he was a guy going around fucking every girl he ever saw, whether they consented or not. We've literally only got a single girl who actually had sex with him, when from the way a lot of the fandom characterizes him you'd think all of Winterfell had him, and plenty of other towns besides. It's one girl who's actually confirmed/speculated to have fucked him. Ned's literally linked to more girls than that.
Nor was he an asshole. Brandon Stark did know honor, to some extents. He showed up to his duel with LF and removed most of his armour when he saw that LF couldn't afford a full set like he could. He agreed not to kill him when it was perfectly acceptable, and while knowing full well that LF wouldn't be showing him that same kind of restraint. He kept his word too, asking him dozens of times to yield, and then ending the fight with a blow to LF's armour, that was only as nearly fatal as it was precisely because LF was poor and had shitty armour in the first place. Even his reaction to Lyanna caused Hoster to call Brandon gallant. A gallant fool perhaps, but gallant.
But all of this ultimately does lead into another point. Brandon was portrayed at the start as a capable man ("All of this was meant for Brandon... Brandon would know what to do"), a fairly honourable and gallant guy, as well as more wolfish than his brother Ned. Yes, there is indeed an important comparison being made in the series that people examine Ned based on who else was around to compare him to. That doesn't mean though that some of them are wrong, and only certain characteristics of Brandon were real. They were ALL real. Ned himself never shied away from the fact that Brandon was an asshole while he praised him for his other qualities. Neither did Catelyn. Nobody really paints this perfect portray of Brandon... because he wasn't. Ned was better than him in some regards, and Brandon was better than him in others. Had Brandon lived there certainly would be different stories painted about which brother was what, and who became known for what qualities as you can't just ignore that Ned ended up living the far more prolific life than Brandon did precisely because Brandon died and how he died, it's just not a fair comparison then. That doesn't mean they didn't still have those qualities themselves or weren't deserving of praise for themselves, and that things could've turned out enormously different.
There is a case to be made that Ned is praised in comparison to others, and particularly Brandon, but it can simply be ignored that people are talking about a specific trait or instance when this is happening, and that Ned being "better" at this doesn't mean that it was a complete washout for Ned > Brandon/others.
Now is that to say that there may have been some earlier possibilities that Robb was Brandon's child? Possibly. I don't know what passage he's talking in the video about Robb looking like his father or whatever (there's a passage where she does say he looks like Ned when he gets serious), but I know there are earlier passages at the Battle of the Whispering Wood that talk about how Catelyn wishes that tall Robb will grow even taller, and in particular as tall as his father one day, while we also know that Cat told us that Ned wasn't really tall, and that Brandon was taller than Ned. That could be a point in favour of Cat/Brandon, and some early groundwork. But when then Catelyn mentions the other stuff that proves that Robb is Ned's son, well then that's the very definition of an abandoned plot.
GRRM can lay whatever he wants early on, but when he eventually lays down a definite piece of information that contradicts it later, then you know the plot is dead. There are open ended plots and ideas that GRRM left open, but some of them don't require us to speculate whether or not they're still possibilities.
So I agree on the fact that there are open ended stories, mis-characterization around, foreshadowings of nothing, etc., but not really what he seems to think constitutes most of any of that.
There is a video on YouTube by bartube that discusses th at Robb is Cat and Brandon's son.
Also everyone assumes that Brandon taking off his heavier armor was him being honor honorable. Seems more smart than honorable. Look at Ser Vargas and the Mountain, having more armor isn't necessary the best. Brandon already had the advantages of size and strength. Could be he wanted to be sure he didn't lack the speed advantage. That being said Brandon would have likely won anyway.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
If B+L=J, then was Rhaegar framed? What if Lyanna realized she was pregnant with Brandon's child (rape or otherwise). She knew she was in deep trouble, so she sent a raven to Rhaegar, whom she had met at Harrenhal a few months earlier. They had hooked up at the tourney, so when she claimed to be pregnant with his child, he believed her. Like Robb (see, we get an example), honor compelled Rhaegar to take care of the girl he knocked up. That's why he left his family and newborn son in the middle of winter to ride for the Riverlands, to meet her there. He thought she would give him his third dragon head, but really her baby was 100% WOLF.
The war wasn't that detrimental to Rhaegar, who wanted his father out of the way and who likely (thought he) had the backing of Tywin Lannister. He had no reason to correct the story of Lyanna's abduction, at least not right away. Let his enemies fight each other, perfect. And Lyanna, like Gilly, just wanted her incest baby to live in the south, far away from its father.
The way GRRM writes it, readers interpret the wolf blood as a description of personality traits; a figure of speech referring to a wild streak. But what if it's more than that? Dany is the blood of the dragon, and this genetic quality does much more than affect her personality (making her bolder, more fearless and perhaps a bit cruel) - it confers an increased heat tolerance and the ability to control dragons, among other things like prophetic dreams. Dany has two Targaryen parents, she is 100% dragon. Why would Jon, who has been clearly set up first on an ice wall and then in the ever frozen far North as our Ice representative, be only half Stark? Wouldn't it make more sense if he was the son of two Starks, both carriers of the wolf blood? Warging would be one trait associated with it; we just didn't notice it in Brandon or Lyanna b/c just like Dany's recent ancestors, genetics alone couldn't overcome the absence of their spirit animal and magic in the world. Another may be linked to the fact that the dead must be locked away in the crypts. Maybe Jon returning (presumably) from the dead is a Stark thing to do. Maybe Starks did it all the time back in the day, when magic was strong and they weren't buried in crypts.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
There is a video on YouTube by bartube that discusses th at Robb is Cat and Brandon's son.
Again though you have to completely ignore the fact that Catelyn outright says Ned took her virginity. Within her own head where she has no reason to lie. Robb can't possibly be Brandon's son if Catelyn was a virgin before she married Ned.
Could be he wanted to be sure he didn't lack the speed advantage
He landed dozens of blows against Littlefinger in seconds, and he was a talented swordsman while LF wasn't. He already had the speed advantage.
Not to mention that if he wanted to be faster than his opponent he'd have simply showed up without the armour in the first place. Brandon dressed himself completely for battle, he fully expected to be wearing full armour and the weight that entails and never thought it was a problem. Unlike Oberyn who showed up wearing light armour, and Bronn who was already wearing light armour. They already knew they planned to fight lightly armoured, Brandon showed up planning to fight fully armoured. Everybody came how they expected to fight. He wasn't planning on being super lightweight like the others.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
There is a video on YouTube by bartube that discusses th at Robb is Cat and Brandon's son.
Again though you have to completely ignore the fact that Catelyn outright says Ned took her virginity. Within her own head where she has no reason to lie. Robb can't possibly be Brandon's son if Catelyn was a virgin before she married Ned.
Could be he wanted to be sure he didn't lack the speed advantage
He landed dozens of blows against Littlefinger in seconds, and he was a talented swordsman while LF wasn't. He already had the speed advantage.
Not to mention that if he wanted to be faster than his opponent he'd have simply showed up without the armour in the first place. Brandon dressed himself completely for battle, he fully expected to be wearing full armour and the weight that entails and never thought it was a problem. Unlike Oberyn who showed up wearing light armour, and Bronn who was already wearing light armour. They already knew they planned to fight lightly armoured, Brandon showed up planning to fight fully armoured. Everybody came how they expected to fight. He wasn't planning on being super lightweight like the others.
I don't really believe the theory just providing more info if anyone was interested.
Dozens of blows in seconds?
Brandon came fully armored because he was the heir to Winterfell and could afford afford good armor. Baelish only had bits and pieces because he was poor. It could have been a hinderance is all I am saying. It could have been a smart move not an honorable one.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Again though you have to completely ignore the fact that Catelyn outright says Ned took her virginity. Within her own head where she has no reason to lie. Robb can't possibly be Brandon's son if Catelyn was a virgin before she married Ned.
He landed dozens of blows against Littlefinger in seconds, and he was a talented swordsman while LF wasn't. He already had the speed advantage.
Not to mention that if he wanted to be faster than his opponent he'd have simply showed up without the armour in the first place. Brandon dressed himself completely for battle, he fully expected to be wearing full armour and the weight that entails and never thought it was a problem. Unlike Oberyn who showed up wearing light armour, and Bronn who was already wearing light armour. They already knew they planned to fight lightly armoured, Brandon showed up planning to fight fully armoured. Everybody came how they expected to fight. He wasn't planning on being super lightweight like the others.
I don't really believe the theory just providing more info if anyone was interested.
Dozens of blows in seconds?
Brandon came fully armored because he was the heir to Winterfell and could afford afford good armor. Baelish only had bits and pieces because he was poor. It could have been a hinderance is all I am saying. It could have been a smart move not an honorable one.
Agree. Like Mountain vs the Viper.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Post by whitewolfstark on Dec 15, 2016 21:16:53 GMT
honestly, I didn't share it for the "Brandon is Robb's true father" aspect. There's really only one passage that made me think along those lines in ASOS when Catelyn's in her head, but I shook it off as it didn't mesh with what was written earlier.
In any case all of this "I'm making things up as I'm going" writing fits for me with how Sansa has a complete personality transplant between Book 1 and 2 that most Sansa fans handwave away.
Oberyn, an already lean man, showed up dressed in light equipment because he was expecting to fight an 8ft tall, 420lb man, who was wearing an extra 200lbs of equipment. He had it planned out from the beginning that he couldn't afford to get close to Gregor.
Brandon, a tall man, showed up dressed in full knightly armour, while expecting to fight a less than 5ft tall scrawny 14 year old boy wearing armour. He had known from the beginning that he would be the much bigger, taller man and came in fully prepared for combat anyways, and only decided to drop his armour when he saw that his little tiny boy opponent couldn't even afford any.
Really it's the completely opposite. Brandon was the Mountain, and LF was Oberyn. LF just didn't have any of Oberyn's skill while Brandon had both the size and skill.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
In any case all of this "I'm making things up as I'm going" writing fits for me with how Sansa has a complete personality transplant between Book 1 and 2 that most Sansa fans handwave away.
I tend to skim through Sansa's chapters as I feel she hasn't changed at all all series (and that's not a compliment), so mind telling me what the change is?
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!