I might also add that when Elio was finally grilled about it he said that that piece of info from the app came from some family tree GRRM's assistant allegedly gave him many years ago which listed her place of death there (IIRC it was a precursor to the family trees found in TWOIAF), and not from his conversation with GRRM when they actually discussed the app. So Elio put in something that wasn't actually something he'd discussed with GRRM and was simply info he assumed was still valid (assuming this family tree ever even existed) or something he assumed he already knew.
I just want to add that Elio engaged in this discussion quite directly, and was repeatedly asked to produce this family tree that he said existed... and he never did.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Did he give away some things in the app? Oh probably undoubtedly. Did he include a ton of misdirections and intentional mistakes? I'd definitely say so. He's not going to contradict what he wants people to be thinking.
I agree with this. But I think clear-cut new info (most well known being the instances you cite: re Arthur/Oswell/Gerold) is indeed the reward he's intentinally offering. As you say, the stuff re: the KGs pretty much jibes with the sense already presented. As does the stuff re: Qorgyle/Jeor. But it is nonetheless new. The stuff re: fostering I cited isn't, perhaps, what most people assume, but it's never contradicted in the text and as the above discussion re: Cressen and the fostering of Robert hints, shit gets really problematic if you think the fostering was later by far than any other fostering we've seen. It's actually in looking into Cressen's potential role in Southron ambitions that I purposefully decided to go through the app bit by bit, and happily found the Arryn entry bit which obviated something that indeed seemed absurd to me: that Robert (and thus, probably Ned) was fostered as a Westerosi adult aged 17 or so (given Steffon's date-of-death [wrongly stated as definitively 278 in the wiki, IIRC, when it could easily be 279]), developed a super close friendship with Ned in no time at all, went to Harrenhal and then went to war in incredibly short order.
The App essentially goes "yo, you're thinking about this fostering business all wrong" and presents a much more sensible answer. It's difficult to imagine GRRM went "I think I'll throw people off the scent by presenting a basically novel and clear-cut explanation at odds with most people's hazy understanding of the fostering-in-the-vale situation". People were already confused: why address it if it wasn't to throw out an (accurate) breadcrumb?
I just want to add that Elio engaged in this discussion quite directly, and was repeatedly asked to produce this family tree that he said existed... and he never did.
It was also claimed as the evidence for the entry long after evidence had been asked. He just "remembered" it posts and posts after he'd been discussing things. That's... odd. And like you said, never actually presented any proof of its existence, let alone proof that GRRM ever touched it considering it supposedly came from some unnamed assistant. Again... odd.
Also, I'm recalling now that when asked about the Jon bit and all that, the discussion then went on to how the family tree could have even been considered a proper source considering that we actually did get a published Stark family tree in TWOIAF and it didn't include this information. That prior family tree would've been the very definition of outdated information considering we actually know definitely what became published and what didn't when it came to the Stark family tree included in TWOIAF. Even if you accept the existence of this family tree, you can literally just point to the real published tree and say "It doesn't exist here"
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
It was also claimed as the evidence for the entry long after evidence had been asked. He just "remembered" it posts and posts after he'd been discussing things. That's... odd.
And like you said, never actually presented any proof of its existence, let alone proof that GRRM ever touched it considering it supposedly came from some unnamed assistant. Again... odd.
Also, I'm recalling now that when asked about the Jon bit and all that, the discussion then went on to how the family tree could have even been considered a proper source considering that we actually did get a published Stark family tree in TWOIAF and it didn't include this information. That prior family tree would've been the very definition of outdated information considering we actually know definitely what became published and what didn't when it came to the Stark family tree included in TWOIAF. Even if you accept the existence of this family tree, you can literally just point to the real published tree and say "It doesn't exist here"
Yup. And you could also point to the SSM, "Only the books are canon."
Seems less *helpful* and more like force feeding an agenda if the primary sources populating the content of the app are 1) not available for examination, and 2) cannot be verified. That is not how credible research works.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Seems less *helpful* and more like force feeding an agenda if the primary sources populating the content of the app are 1) not available for examination, and 2) cannot be verified. That is not how credible research works.
You forgot 3) "new" information was supposed to be based on a conversation held between Elio and GRRM where Elio asked him questions and GRRM responded. If the information didn't come from that conversation then you included information that shouldn't have been in there in the first place.
Again it was all just a real odd situation and not at all how you would consider something to be credible. It's either completely made up, of dubious origin, of pre-publication origin that was later changed in the published material, or a guess on his part based on what he read in AGOT, which didn't actually say it.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
You forgot 3) "new" information was supposed to be based on a conversation held between Elio and GRRM where Elio asked him questions and GRRM responded. If the information didn't come from that conversation then you included information that shouldn't have been in there in the first place.
I did forget that part. Totally. I remember that being a thing though, now that you bring it up.
I want to give Elio and Linda the benefit of the doubt. I really do. They clearly have a central role to play in this, for both the fandom and for GRRM. And I can think of worse intermediaries. LOL
But... if instead of relying upon feedback from GRRM, they instead relied upon something no one can see or verify, and refuse to produce it upon request so that it can be examined and scrutinized by the readership . . . well, it begins to sound a lot like a secret piece of intelligence that we have to believe exists just because they assert that it does.
And it is difficult to find a constructive motive or contribution in such a stance. It limits the debate, rather than contributes to it. Such things tend to look like snake oil, to me at least.
Again it was all just a real odd situation and not at all how you would consider something to be credible. It's either completely made up, of dubious origin, of pre-publication origin that was later changed in the published material, or a guess on his part based on what he read in AGOT, which didn't actually say it.
I think it is the latter. A guess -- aided by years of speculation surrounded by yea-sayers. As Weasel Pie demonstrated when he originally shared his OP, the speculative parts of the forum-collective consciousness have overtaken what the text actually tells us.
It is not hard to find someone in the fandom who thinks there is ample "proof" (not "evidence") that Lyanna died in childbirth. That is of course, not true. There is evidence that this was possible, but that is not the same thing as proof.
Elio and Linda are on record as saying that RLJ really isn't even a theory anymore, that's how certain they are of it. I think Lyanna dying at the tower of joy is central to that declaration.
Literally interpret fever dreams much?
The Turtle has warned against precisely that form of speculation... yet we are to believe that one of his "assistants" provided a family tree that includes a place of death for Lyanna Stark drawn from a very literal interpretation of the fever dream?
Okaaay.
LOL
And to all of our new members, I apologize for how cynical this convo between Mark and I sounds. I do hope that the document in question exists, and I would love for Lyanna to have been at the tower of joy. But thus far, we have no text from GRRM that places her there, and that, in my opinion, should warrant far more inquiry. Or at least, it should warrant slightly more inquiry than scenarios that place her there. Or even an equal amount. Or even a footnote... something. LOL
But instead, we get the very questionable declarations from Elio and Linda. And for reasons I cannot comprehend, the fandom gives those non-authorial declarations even more consideration than things GRRM has written and said. /nerdrant. LOL
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
That 2002 SSM should be taken in the 2002 context though. Back then the Lyanna was at ToJ and gave birth to Jon Snow was not widespread to this level of insanity. I haven't even seen Elio and the Westeros debates about this thing until 2008-09 or thereabouts which is years after I've formed the same opinion.
As far as I'm concerned, Martin most likely says that we should not taken it as a guideline for what happened in Dorne but as a fevered dream in order to cloud the issue. Probably freaking out that his plot was guessed and he was asked straight up about it. However, I know that chapter by heart as many of you do. And Ned wakes up, and ponders on the "bitter dream" and where Jory Cassel's brother was buried and says exactly the same damn thing regarding that "they had been seven against three yet only two to live and ride away" him and Howland. When you read the whole and don't cut it it in fragments it is easy to see why a reader logically concludes reading the whole that ToJ represents something bitter, about close family, a drama that unfolded. It is the reason Ned thinks of it as a bad omen and thinks of shielding his daughters.
I'm thinking of posting the infografic again! It would make me feel immensely better than putting me in the same category with Elio Garcia just because the flow of the narrative in that chapter brought us both to the same conclusion!
Also: I know he's putting it as canon on wiki and I don't. Which is why you are bothered by. But it is. :x I mean surely now the show confirmed it it's ok! :tiptoe
Also: I know he's putting it as canon on wiki and I don't. Which is why you are bothered by. But it is. :x I mean surely now the show confirmed it it's ok! :tiptoe
The show has also confirmed that Bloodraven is the three-eyed raven although there is no mention of such in the books even once. There is only the 3EC and no mention of 3ER at all. Makes you wonder why they made that choice.
That 2002 SSM should be taken in the 2002 context though. Back then the Lyanna was at ToJ and gave birth to Jon Snow was not widespread to this level of insanity. I haven't even seen Elio and the Westeros debates about this thing until 2008-09 or thereabouts which is years after I've formed the same opinion.
Good point. But, 2002-2017 is only fifteen years.
15 years in GRRMtime is like six months to most people.
As far as I'm concerned, Martin most likely says that we should not taken it as a guideline for what happened in Dorne but as a fevered dream in order to cloud the issue. Probably freaking out that his plot was guessed and he was asked straight up about it.
Possible, but this assumes a lot.
And if one heeds Martin's warning, and reads the dream as a non-literal fevered dream, it makes far more sense than it does as an actual account of what happened at the tower of joy.
Just imagine the odds and logistics of Lyanna "screaming" Eddard's name at the exact moment he fought the kingsguard.
However, I know that chapter by heart as many of you do. And Ned wakes up, and ponders on the "bitter dream" and where Jory Cassel's brother was buried and says exactly the same damn thing regarding that "they had been seven against three yet only two to live and ride away" him and Howland.
Correction: Ned accounted for the same number of combatants, but Ned didn't say "only two had lived to ride away" in the dream.
When awake, Ned never associates Lyanna with the tower/kg, yet thinks of her and her death quite often.
When you read the whole and don't cut it it in fragments it is easy to see why a reader logically concludes reading the whole that ToJ represents something bitter, about close family, a drama that unfolded. It is the reason Ned thinks of it as a bad omen and thinks of shielding his daughters.
He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.
In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.
They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.
"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.
"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.
"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.
"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."
"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."
"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."
"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.
"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."
"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.
"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."
"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.
Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.
"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.
"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise . . . "
"Lord Eddard," a man echoed from the dark.
Groaning, Eddard Stark opened his eyes. Moonlight streamed through the tall windows of the Tower of the Hand.
"Lord Eddard?" A shadow stood over the bed.
"How . . . how long?" The sheets were tangled, his leg splinted and plastered. A dull throb of pain shot up his side.
"Six days and seven nights." The voice was Vayon Poole's. The steward held a cup to Ned's lips. "Drink, my lord."
"What . . . ?"
"Only water. Maester Pycelle said you would be thirsty."
Ned drank. His lips were parched and cracked. The water tasted sweet as honey.
"The king left orders," Vayon Poole told him when the cup was empty. "He would speak with you, my lord."
"On the morrow," Ned said. "When I am stronger." He could not face Robert now. The dream had left him weak as a kitten.
"My lord," Poole said, "he commanded us to send you to him the moment you opened your eyes." The steward busied himself lighting a bedside candle.
Ned cursed softly. Robert was never known for his patience. "Tell him I'm too weak to come to him. If he wishes to speak with me, I should be pleased to receive him here. I hope you wake him from a sound sleep. And summon . . . " He was about to say Jory when he remembered. "Summon the captain of my guard."
Alyn stepped into the bedchamber a few moments after the steward had taken his leave. "My lord."
"Poole tells me it has been six days," Ned said. "I must know how things stand."
"The Kingslayer is fled the city," Alyn told him. "The talk is he's ridden back to Casterly Rock to join his father. The story of how Lady Catelyn took the Imp is on every lip. I have put on extra guards, if it please you."
"It does," Ned assured him. "My daughters?"
"They have been with you every day, my lord. Sansa prays quietly, but Arya . . . " He hesitated. "She has not said a word since they brought you back. She is a fierce little thing, my lord. I have never seen such anger in a girl."
"Whatever happens," Ned said, "I want my daughters kept safe. I fear this is only the beginning."
"No harm will come to them, Lord Eddard," Alyn said. "I stake my life on that."
"Jory and the others . . . "
"I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather."
It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.
"You've done well, Alyn," Ned was saying when Vayon Poole returned. The steward bowed low. "His Grace is without, my lord, and the queen with him."
Ned pushed himself up higher, wincing as his leg trembled with pain. He had not expected Cersei to come. It did not bode well that she had. "Send them in, and leave us. What we have to say should not go beyond these walls." Poole withdrew quietly.
Robert had taken time to dress. He wore a black velvet doublet with the crowned stag of Baratheon worked upon the breast in golden thread, and a golden mantle with a cloak of black and gold squares. A flagon of wine was in his hand, his face already flushed from drink. Cersei Lannister entered behind him, a jeweled tiara in her hair.
"Your Grace," Ned said. "Your pardons. I cannot rise."
"No matter," the king said gruffly. "Some wine? From the Arbor. A good vintage."
"A small cup," Ned said. "My head is still heavy from the milk of the poppy."
"A man in your place should count himself fortunate that his head is still on his shoulders," the queen declared.
"Quiet, woman," Robert snapped. He brought Ned a cup of wine. "Does the leg still pain you?"
"Some," Ned said. His head was swimming, but it would not do to admit to weakness in front of the queen.
"Pycelle swears it will heal clean." Robert frowned. "I take it you know what Catelyn has done?"
"I do." Ned took a small swallow of wine. "My lady wife is blameless, Your Grace. All she did she did at my command."
"I am not pleased, Ned," Robert grumbled.
"By what right do you dare lay hands on my blood?" Cersei demanded. "Who do you think you are?"
"The Hand of the King," Ned told her with icy courtesy. "Charged by your own lord husband to keep the king's peace and enforce the king's justice."
"You were the Hand," Cersei began, "but now - "
"Silence!" the king roared. "You asked him a question and he answered it." Cersei subsided, cold with anger, and Robert turned back to Ned. "Keep the king's peace, you say. Is this how you keep my peace, Ned? Seven men are dead . . . "
"Eight," the queen corrected. "Tregar died this morning, of the blow Lord Stark gave him."
"Abductions on the kingsroad and drunken slaughter in my streets," the king said. "I will not have it, Ned."
"Catelyn had good reason for taking the Imp - "
"I said, I will not have it! To hell with her reasons. You will command her to release the dwarf at once, and you will make your peace with Jaime."
"Three of my men were butchered before my eyes, because Jaime Lannister wished to chasten me. Am I to forget that?"
"My brother was not the cause of this quarrel," Cersei told the king. "Lord Stark was returning drunk from a brothel. His men attacked Jaime and his guards, even as his wife attacked Tyrion on the kingsroad."
"You know me better than that, Robert," Ned said. "Ask Lord Baelish if you doubt me. He was there."
"I've talked to Littlefinger," Robert said. "He claims he rode off to bring the gold cloaks before the fighting began, but he admits you were returning from some whorehouse."
"Some whorehouse? Damn your eyes, Robert, I went there to have a look at your daughter! Her mother has named her Barra. She looks like that first girl you fathered, when we were boys together in the Vale." He watched the queen as he spoke; her face was a mask, still and pale, betraying nothing.
Robert flushed. "Barra," he grumbled. "Is that supposed to please me? Damn the girl. I thought she had more sense."
"She cannot be more than fifteen, and a whore, and you thought she had sense?" Ned said, incredulous. His leg was beginning to pain him sorely. It was hard to keep his temper. "The fool child is in love with you, Robert."
The king glanced at Cersei. "This is no fit subject for the queen's ears."
"Her Grace will have no liking for anything I have to say," Ned replied. "I am told the Kingslayer has fled the city. Give me leave to bring him back to justice."
The king swirled the wine in his cup, brooding. He took a swallow. "No," he said. "I want no more of this. Jaime slew three of your men, and you five of his. Now it ends."
"Is that your notion of justice?" Ned flared. "If so, I am pleased that I am no longer your Hand."
The queen looked to her husband. "If any man had dared speak to a Targaryen as he has spoken to you - "
"Do you take me for Aerys?" Robert interrupted.
"I took you for a king. Jaime and Tyrion are your own brothers, by all the laws of marriage and the bonds we share. The Starks have driven off the one and seized the other. This man dishonors you with every breath he takes, and yet you stand there meekly, asking if his leg pains him and would he like some wine."
Robert's face was dark with anger. "How many times must I tell you to hold your tongue, woman?"
Cersei's face was a study in contempt. "What a jape the gods have made of us two," she said. "By all rights, you ought to be in skirts and me in mail."
Purple with rage, the king lashed out, a vicious backhand blow to the side of the head. She stumbled against the table and fell hard, yet Cersei Lannister did not cry out. Her slender fingers brushed her cheek, where the pale smooth skin was already reddening. On the morrow the bruise would cover half her face. "I shall wear this as a badge of honor," she announced.
"Wear it in silence, or I'll honor you again," Robert vowed. He shouted for a guard. Ser Meryn Trant stepped into the room, tall and somber in his white armor. "The queen is tired. See her to her bedchamber." The knight helped Cersei to her feet and led her out without a word.
Robert reached for the flagon and refilled his cup. "You see what she does to me, Ned." The king seated himself, cradling his wine cup. "My loving wife. The mother of my children." The rage was gone from him now; in his eyes Ned saw something sad and scared. "I should not have hit her. That was not . . . that was not kingly." He stared down at his hands, as if he did not quite know what they were. "I was always strong . . . no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can't hit them?" Confused, the king shook his head. "Rhaegar . . . Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her." The king drained his cup.
"Your Grace," Ned Stark said, "we must talk . . . "
Robert pressed his fingertips against his temples. "I am sick unto death of talk. On the morrow I'm going to the kingswood to hunt. Whatever you have to say can wait until I return."
"If the gods are good, I shall not be here on your return. You commanded me to return to Winterfell, remember?"
Robert stood up, grasping one of the bedposts to steady himself. "The gods are seldom good, Ned. Here, this is yours." He pulled the heavy silver hand clasp from a pocket in the lining of his cloak and tossed it on the bed. "Like it or not, you are my Hand, damn you. I forbid you to leave."
Ned picked up the silver clasp. He was being given no choice, it seemed. His leg throbbed, and he felt as helpless as a child. "The Targaryen girl - "
The king groaned. "Seven hells, don't start with her again. That's done, I'll hear no more of it."
"Why would you want me as your Hand, if you refuse to listen to my counsel?"
"Why?" Robert laughed. "Why not? Someone has to rule this damnable kingdom. Put on the badge, Ned. It suits you. And if you ever throw it in my face again, I swear to you, I'll pin the damned thing on Jaime Lannister."
I do agree regarding the "bitterness" of the toj memory though, as Ned makes that clear. What is certainly not clear, however, is that this bitterness it over Lyanna. The dream merges Lyanna's screams with the showdown with the kg, but that does not mean Lyanna was there. All that implies, in my opinion, is that Lyanna haunts Ned even when he dreams of fighting the kingsguard.
I certainly believe there is a connection between the two (Ned's fight and Lyanna). But I do not think it is as literal as some folks assume –– hence GRRM's warning.
In my head canon (all books, no show), Arthur Dayne nearly kills Ned. Howland intervenes and Ned is able to checkmate Arthur. Mortally wounded, Arthur tells Ned that Lyanna is alive, and at Starfall.
Ned makes the trip to reclaim her, with Dawn in hand.
I'm thinking of posting the infografic again! It would make me feel immensely better than putting me in the same category with Elio Garcia just because the flow of the narrative in that chapter brought us both to the same conclusion!
I think it's pretty funny that people think that after 20 years of novels, and six seasons of the show, that the final revelation is proven by a sloppy infographic.
Sloppy, I say, because it doesn't have Lyanna's face.
Funny, because the show did not state the father's identity.
Also: I know he's putting it as canon on wiki and I don't. Which is why you are bothered by. But it is. :x I mean surely now the show confirmed it it's ok! :tiptoe
No need to tiptoe. LOL
I hope the show confirms RLJ because I think the fans need it, and I don't think GRRM will be as kind to them as HBO.
But if HBO states the identity of Jon Snow's father is Rhaegar Targaryen, I wouldn't pop the cork on any expensive wines quite yet.... Who am I kidding? Wine does not stay corked long in House Voice, and it is far more likely to be whiskey or beer.
What I can truthfully say, is that if HBO states that Rhaegar is Jon's father, it should raise certain concerns, which I have outlined here.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
The show has also confirmed that Bloodraven is the three-eyed raven although there is no mention of such in the books even once. There is only the 3EC and no mention of 3ER at all. Makes you wonder why they made that choice.
The show has also confirmed that the Sandsnakes will kill Doran Martell.
Call me crazy, but I don't think that's going to happen.
HBO has also confirmed that obsidian is not so much a type of plot-armor, as it is a plot-swiss army knife:
turned an "Andle" into a white walker (the "Night King")
kills white walkers
keeps men from becoming wights/whitewalkers once attacked (Benjen)
It's hard to imagine GRRM using a plot device so clumsily when revealing the origins of important characters in the story.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Also: I know he's putting it as canon on wiki and I don't. Which is why you are bothered by. But it is. :x I mean surely now the show confirmed it it's ok! :tiptoe
The show has also confirmed that Bloodraven is the three-eyed raven although there is no mention of such in the books even once. There is only the 3EC and no mention of 3ER at all. Makes you wonder why they made that choice.
There are a lot of things the show confirmed and may not be true though. Coldhands ( or if you'd like the COTF undead) helping Bran is Benjen, Shireen is burnt with Stannis approval and to serve his purpose, JoJen is killed by a fireball and not made a paste etc. I believe that they did pick and choose what to change/confirm/consolidate from the books and it is true that their version may not be the book version in some respects.
However, and this is a huge however, there's a confluence of reasons why I am convinced they have the r+L= J right. And these are meta reasons:
1. It is the point that got Martin to agree with them pitching it and making it for HBO. It would be a shocker to me if they would change that specific thing. I think all three loved that idea and Martin was happy they got it right.
2. The problem with making it something else at this point is terrible show writing simply because they introduced absolutely nothing else to supplant the book theory of Jon's parentage. There's no Ashara push, no Willa, nothing to stand out. If they would at this point reveal that Ashara Dayne and Ned Stark have a baby, tens of millions of showwatchers would be like: "WHO?!" This is not the time to leave breadcrumbs so the mystery is revealed. This is the gathering of fruits time if you ask me.
As for Bloodraven being the 3eyed Raven. I can't be sure. Bloodraven has one eye only. Dumbledore hanging from the tree has two. And frankly I have no idea and don't remember him being named in the show. Did they? Maybe. If they did they probably were consolidated (?) no idea. I have to rewatch yet season 6. Maybe some idea will come to me then.
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
As for Bloodraven being the 3eyed Raven. I can't be sure. Bloodraven has one eye only. Dumbledore hanging from the tree has two. And frankly I have no idea and don't remember him being named in the show. Did they? Maybe. If they did they probably were consolidated (?) no idea. I have to rewatch yet season 6. Maybe some idea will come to me then.
Oh I was being a bit cheeky. There is no such thing as the three-eyed raven in the book. Bran never uses the term. So why didn't D&D just call Bloodraven the three-eyed crow. Why did they change it to raven. Only book readers would know the difference. My guess is that Bloodraven is not the three-eyed crow.