Ok, so I don't really have a theory or anything, but I was just listening to Clash Ch. 18 where Sansa meets Dontos in the godswood in KL.
we know now that LF and the Queen of Thorns teamed up to help her escape during Joffrey's wedding. The thing is, I don't believe that the Queen of Thorns made up her mind to go through with the plan until much later, when she and Margaery got their confirmation from Sansa that Joffrey was a tyrant during their lunch.
This whole plan seemed to hatch way before that. Sansa is still betrothed to Joffrey, and Robb is still King in the North. What could LF's m.o. have been all the way back then? Why help Sansa escape? Was it coincidence this happened after he agreed to go to the Vale when Tyrion promised him Harrenhal? A bargaining chip perhaps for Robb, or a way to get into Cat's good graces?
confused, because I'm not seeing how this would work to LF's advantage. He doesn't want to get killed, he looks out for himself, and Sansa still has family. I'm not convinced he is grooming Sansa intentionally, either. He's a sociopath. He's just too arrogant to think anyone can ever get the best of him. The only reason I believe he hasn't raped her yet is because she's more valuable as the maiden heiress to WF (as far as anyone knows).
ideas?
โNever forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.โ โ George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Ok, I'll first confess, didn't really pay close attention to her chapters. It's hard for me not to zen-read thru her chapters. So my gut says that Sansa is a commodity to LF. He is leaving the field and taking his toy...most likely to prevent Tyrion from charming Sansa.
Ok, I'll first confess, didn't really pay close attention to her chapters. It's hard for me not to zen-read thru her chapters. So my gut says that Sansa is a commodity to LF. He is leaving the field and taking his toy...most likely to prevent Tyrion from charming Sansa.
I didn't think of any of this until this time around- the thing is, Tyrion isn't involved yet- he only met her when he greeted her in the yard for Joffrey's name day. She is still engaged to Joffrey at this point; Tyrion hasn't even saved her from the topless beating yet.
i just suddenly realized how early in the game Little Finger started playing this hand- he hasn't gone to meet Renly and the Tyrells, yet, either. However, he did have the conversation with Ned in AGOT & LF a little earlier in Clash had a conversation with Tyrion about Tommen being the "hypothetical" heir...
gotta go scurry and look for the quotes...
First one Ch. 47, GOT, I believe Eddard XIII:
"Now look at the other side of the coin. Joffrey is but twelve, and Robert gave you the regency, my lord. You are the Hand of the King and Protector of the Realm. The power is yours, Lord Stark. All you need do is reach out and take it. Make your peace with the Lannisters. Release the Imp. Wed Joffrey to your Sansa. Wed your younger girl to Prince Tommen, and your heir to Myrcella. It will be four years before Joffrey comes of age. By then he will look to you as a second father, and if not, well โฆ four years is a good long while, my lord. Long enough to dispose of Lord Stannis. Then, should Joffrey prove troublesome, we can reveal his little secret and put Lord Renly on the throne."
Ok the Clash will take more time to research, but I was sure I read a convo between LF & Tyrion where he insinuates Tommen is next in line, and Tyrion reminds him that Joffrey is actually going to be king when he comes of age.
โNever forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.โ โ George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I see that LF is planning on taking Joffrey down if he proves intractable. But then, why should Ned wed all of his children up to and including "your heir to Myrcella"? Revealling Joff takes all of Ned's kids down with the Lannister kids.
He's a sociopath. He's just too arrogant to think anyone can ever get the best of him. The only reason I believe he hasn't raped her yet is because she's more valuable as the maiden heiress to WF (as far as anyone knows).
I wish I had some further insight, but all I can see is this. I agree she's a valuable commodity. LF has already had a sexual relationship for personal gain, with Sansa, he can have an emotional one. While he hasn't stuck her with the pointy end, he has, I would argue, sexually molested her. The kisses. The embraces.
He is Ramsay Bolton with nicer clothes, and manipulated Sansa to the point she is now Alayne. Like Ramsay and his pet Theon-Reek, he can ask her to pretend to be the noble she was born to be. And then, on command, he can order her to return to the identity he has brainwashed her to be, and she will. She was stronger with Lady, and stronger within the walls of Winterfell. But they, alas, are gone.
I think her only solace now will be the Coming Winter. She will be its rose.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Nanks! I need to think on it more, and I need to find the LF quote from Clash to Tyrion about Tommen being heir vs Joffrey. I don't know that LF was intending to take down Stark, I feel it was in place in case he needed to.
marrying the Stark kids to the other Lannisters seems like a good way to keep the Lannisters from retaliating, if need be. I assumed LF meant to kill off Joffrey subtly if he didn't behave- but let Ned raise him for the time being and see if he could do a better job.
Ned could always feign ignorance about the incest. I dunno, but I think LF was trying to give Ned a chance, and hinted strongly about what course to take. Ned should've connected the dots when Renly fled. Dumb. Ass. Ned. Anyway, just curious about LF's overarching MO, is it so different than Varys, and wonder if we'll ever get a glimpse of his endgame.
โNever forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.โ โ George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I need to think on it more, and I need to find the LF quote from Clash to Tyrion about Tommen being heir vs Joffrey. I don't know that LF was intending to take down Stark, I feel it was in place in case he needed to.
I'm not certain LF intended to take down Stark either. People attribute much and more to his machinations. I can't tell you how many arguments I've made against LF being the downfall of House Stark in my 3 shadows thread.
More than anything else, I think LF planned on advancing the socio-economic ladder, and mayhaps of one day becoming a lord. He's smart enough to identify opportunity, and the Harrenhal lordship, then becoming Lord Protector of the Vale, were served to him on silver platters.
In addition to his own advancement, apparently, as you have recently discovered, he also planned on stealing Sansa long before the fan hit the shit. It makes my head feel foggy trying to figure it out, but I think you are on to something that may reveal his endgame.
marrying the Stark kids to the other Lannisters seems like a good way to keep the Lannisters from retaliating, if need be. I assumed LF meant to kill off Joffrey subtly if he didn't behave- but let Ned raise him for the time being and see if he could do a better job.
It does. I think LF hoped Ned would never realize the Lannister children's bastardy, and that Sansa would marry Joff eventually. He truly does seem to want Sansa to advance as far, or even further, than himself, and ride her petticoat-tails.
But, given how obvious their bastardy was, I think you've just figured out that LF had a Plan B and a Plan C. Once Ned discovered twincest, LF could then attempt to (Plan B) maintain the status quo: Ned's wardship over Joffrey as Hand and Lord Protector of the Realm, and Sansa's betrothal to the boy-king (who could easily be replaced by his younger, more amenable brother). Once that attempt failed, he had Plan C ready to go with Ser Fool-by-Day ready to scale the wall (hint, hint) with Sansa and flee KL by boat.
I dunno, but I think LF was trying to give Ned a chance, and hinted strongly about what course to take. Ned should've connected the dots when Renly fled. Dumb. Ass. Ned. Anyway, just curious about LF's overarching MO, is it so different than Varys, and wonder if we'll ever get a glimpse of his endgame.
Agreed on all points. Ned was a horrible player in the game. And, we now know that Varys' endame was (f)Aegon. LF's endgame is far more difficult to decrypt, but I think we can be certain that LF wanted, and placed, Tommen on the Iron Throne.
He creeps me out even more than Ramsay, truth be told. At least, the book version of LF anyway.
I'm not sure if he qualifies as a pedophile, in-universe, as Sansa is now a woman-grown. But, what is really fucked up about Petyr+Alayne is that Alayne is his bastard daughter. So it's psychological incest.
Given the strange apology Lord Hoster Tully attempted to give Lysa Tully-Arryn, when he thought Cat was her, it may be that Lysa was herself molested by her father. We know from Lysa, and Catelyn, that Lysa comforted and cared for Petyr after his duel with Brandon Stark. We know Petyr was seriously wounded. We know Petyr believes, or at least wants to believe, that Cat gave him the gift a woman can only give once.
But....according to Lysa, she, not Cat, gave Petyr that gift.
Here's where things get really, really fucked up...
Petyr comes from dirt, and is fostered at Riverrun. While there, he plays at kissing with the Tully sisters, falls in love with Cat, just as Lysa falls in love with him. If Hoster was making sexual advances towards Lysa, it's likely Petyr was aware of it, suspected, or that Lysa confided in him. But, Peter wants Cat.
Now Cat's dead, but I think Petyr held out hope of kindling a relationship with her until her death. Who knows, maybe he'd still want Lady Stoneheart?
Anyway, to get back to the really fucked up stuff, Petyr may now be making those same sexual advances towards his own "daughter" that Hoster was (possibly) making toward Lysa. Thus, Petyr is becoming the Lord who controlled him during his formative years, while neglecting his ward, Robert Arryn.
Robert Arryn = Petyr Baelish 18 years ago. Yet another fucked up layer to all of this is that Sansa reminds Petyr of Catelyn - the one that got away, and the only woman he's ever "loved". Yet, he has named her after his own mother, "Alayne". Dude has issues. Far worse issues than Ramsay, and that guy's pretty fucked up too.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I can't recall if we were discussing here or at SH how Stannis found out about twincest, but I just read the chapter where he explains that he was the one who figured it out, but told Arryn, because he felt Robert would trust Arryn more.
On top of that, Renly discusses how a year ago he was plotting to make Margaery Robert's queen, which lends credence to the possibility that LF was already in touch with the Tyrells as was suggested, before plotting to assist Sansa to leave WF.
I'm all from reading all day, but I need to remember to post the supporting evidence here later- also the stuff about Stannis' sword. It may not be the Lighbringer, but it sure seems to have magical qualities.
โNever forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.โ โ George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I'm not certain LF intended to take down Stark either. People attribute much and more to his machinations. I can't tell you how many arguments I've made against LF being the downfall of House Stark in my 3 shadows thread.
More than anything else, I think LF planned on advancing the socio-economic ladder, and mayhaps of one day becoming a lord. He's smart enough to identify opportunity, and the Harrenhal lordship, then becoming Lord Protector of the Vale, were served to him on silver platters.
Ned:Littlefinger :: Kevan:Varys. He was well advised to kill Ned (get Ned arrested, whatever) before Ned calmed King's Landing down with some kind of sober, Northern-style rule. Certainly Ned-as-Hand doesn't promote Petyr Baelish to any positions of authority or influence. Littelfinger's only real opposition on the council pre-Ned was Varys; and Varys can't openly oppose him, for reasons of being a shadowy spider. In short, Ned limits LF's range of options.
As far as why take Sansa, I don't think there's a drawback to that from Littlefinger's perspective. If Robb wins, he can tell him he was protecting Sansa from the vipers at King's Landing; Robb would have no reason to doubt him. They have accused her of regicide after all. And no matter how the political situation shakes out, he is a.) acting as ward for a woman of high noble birth, and b.) definitely trying to recapture the magic with his erstwhile love's 13-year-old daughter. Which, yeah. What's creepier about it, to me, is that he kinda put Catelyn in a situation to get murdered. The whole War of Five Kings was at least partly his doing.
It may not be the Lighbringer, but it sure seems to have magical qualities.
Maester Aemon is pretty clear that it gives off no heat. Is there a contrary cite?
Edit:
"Enough!" Stannis roared. "I will not be mocked to my face, do you hear me? I will not!" He yanked his longsword from its scabbard. The steel gleamed strangely bright in the wan sunlight, now red, now yellow, now blazing white. The air around it seemed to shimmer, as if from heat. (aCoK, Catelyn III)
Glamorriffic.
The air shimmered around it, and no jewel had ever sparkled so brilliantly. But when Stannis touched it to Davos's shoulder, it felt no different than any other longsword. "Ser Davos of House Seaworth," the king said, "are you my true and honest liege man, now and forever?" (aSoS, Davos IV)
More shimmering in Mel's presence:
It went up with a whoosh as swirling tongues of green and yellow fire leapt up crackling all along its length. Jon's garron shied nervously, and up and down the ranks others fought to still their mounts as well. A moan came from the stockade as the free folk saw their hope afire. A few began to shout and curse, but most lapsed into silence. For half a heartbeat the runes graven on the gold bands seemed to shimmer in the air. The queen's men gave a heave and sent the horn tumbling down into the fire pit. (aSoS, Davos IV)
And a possible indication that Catelyn might have been seeing through the glamor:
The firelight made his black skin shine like polished onyx, and sometimes Victarion could swear that the flames tattooed on his face were dancing too, twisting and bending, melting into one another, their colors changing with every turn of the priest's head. (aDwD, Victarion I)
Maester Aemon is pretty clear that it gives off no heat. Is there a contrary cite?
2 from Cat III in Clash so far that I've noticed:
He yanked his longsword from its scabbard. The steel gleamed strangely bright in the wan sunlight, now red, now yellow, now blazing white. The air around it seemed to shimmer, as if from heat.
We shall see, brother." Some of the light seemed to go out of the world when Stannis slid his sword back into its scabbard. "Come the dawn, we shall see."
it also says there's a ruby on his sword- I don't think it's Lightbringer, but I think Mel is doing some work on it.
โNever forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.โ โ George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
We shall see, brother." Some of the light seemed to go out of the world when Stannis slid his sword back into its scabbard. "Come the dawn, we shall see."
We shall see, brother." Some of the light seemed to go out of the world when Stannis slid his sword back into its scabbard. "Come the dawn, we shall see."
No heat, though. Total sham.
I edited my post above with more citations.
I agree- it just occurred to me; wonder if the glamour sword played a part in Renly's shadow murder? The shadow cut him with a blade. Maybe that's too complicated. I think there's more to the sword, but yes, I defer to Aemon, it's not Lightbringer at all, but I still think it's a tool of some sort.
โNever forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.โ โ George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
What's creepier about it, to me, is that he kinda put Catelyn in a situation to get murdered. The whole War of Five Kings was at least partly his doing.
Big time. I think you could say the Wot5K began when Ned walked out of that brothel, and was ambushed by Jaime. Ned drew first blood, except:
Jaime ambushed Ned because Catelyn abducted Tyrion. Catelyn abducted Tyrion because: Petyr Baelish. Yet...
Petyr only had that opportunity because Joffrey sent the catspaw to kill Bran with the Valyrian dagger. The dagger, which, drew first blood (Catelyn's). Except:
The catspaw only went unnoticed in Winterfell because Jon Arryn was murdered by Lysa, thereby urging Robert and company north. Yet...
Jon Arryn was only hand because Ned and Robert called their banners in rebellion against the dragonlords. But...
The rebellion may not have ever happened if Rhaegar had not given Lyanna that crown, which put him at the top of Brandon's list when the she-wolf left the pack.
Did Arthur Dayne's love (lust?) for Lyanna topple the first domino?
Was Lyanna's the face that launched a thousand ships?
It all comes round full circle to Littlefinger, actually...
โNever forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.โ โ George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
It all comes round full circle to Littlefinger, actually...
In part, but I think it comes back to the rebellion, and the antler-impaled direwolf as a sort of omen for both Ned and Robert. Idk...bunch of half-formed thoughts...
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."