Dark, dark were the tunnels

I don't know where to start with this story. I loved it. This story really shows us the dark view GRRM has of humanity; not only that Men have destroyed their entire planet but that a simple misunderstanding can lead to a massacre between cultures that wanted to cooperate. The reader witnesses the curiosity, good will and hope on both sides in this story. There is no antagonist- they all want to get along, each needing the other. Each wanting this discovery to help their culture. But look how it ends.

This is a common theme in GRRM's work; conflict that is not wanted by either side, rooted in misunderstanding and the inability to communicate. We see it in Guardians, where men kill mudpots b/c they don't know they are conscious and mudpots kill men b/c men are killing them. We see it in Dying of the Light, where Jaan kills his lover b/c he believed he had turned against him, when really he was coming to his aid. In Greywater watch, men kill other men, believing them to be infected with a fungus - a terrible misjudgement that results in death all around.
GRRM is showing us how easy it is for a misunderstanding to start a war. Just as he shows us in House of the Worm how easily pointless wars can be dragged on for generations, with neither side remembering why they are fighting but neither side wanting the war. Each is afraid of the other, when really they should cooperate to survive the worms. What we see, again and again, is that there is no antagonist in GRRM's wars. Only two protagonists, each fighting for what they believe in, neither of them wanting the war but unable to end it due to lack of communication.
What we don't see is Man vs Evil Implacable Enemy That Wants to Extinguish All Life.

Another thing that stood out to me was the difference in the "legends" of the two cultures. First, we get Greel's view, who thinks he is in the Ancient Halls of the Old Ones, who created the People a million years ago. Then a few pages later, we learn from the moon men that the war was only 500 years ago, and survivors hid in the tunnels. The Ancient Hall is an old subway station.

And lastly, what really got to me was how Ciffonetto's view of Greel changed throughout the story. At first, he finds him fascinating, but after things go badly he begins to dehumanize Greel in his mind, until at last he convinces himself that the People couldn't have helped them anyway. It's quite chilling, and it almost even seems as though he agrees with Von der Stadt in the end, who keeps repeating it was just a rat.

Here's the progression:













So up until the second before Von der Stadt shoots, Ciffonetto thinks that this meeting will live in history.
Seconds later:



But now look at the evolution of his thoughts toward Greel:



Suddenly this meeting was not an historic moment; it doesn't matter that they killed Greel, they'll find others. But, for the moment, he still thinks it's worth searching every inch to find them.
A few lines later:



Well that deteriorated fast, didn't it?
And, to end the story:

I was thinking more of whether the Others are going to turn out to be less antagonistic than they currently seem. But as for Tywin, he only called his banners after Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion. That's a pretty normal response, IMO. I don't think he particularly wanted a war at that time (he definitely wasn't happy when Joffrey executed Ned), things were going pretty well for his family then. So it's actually another case of neither side wanting to go to war. Two events, the abduction of Tyrion and the execution of Ned, forced the hands of Tywin and Robb.

But I actually wouldn't categorize the "Game" wars (wars for the IT) as part of the parallels I was pointing out. Those are more of a power struggle, the first (Stark v Lannister) perhaps notwithstanding. The wars I was focusing on seem to be more linked to misunderstandings and miscommunication leading to conflict between two groups who have NO reason to fight each other. Men thinking other men are infected with a fungus when they aren't. Von der Stadt shooting the rat b/c he didn't know it was telepathic. Men eating guardians b/c they think they are like snails. There is no ill will, no desire for conflict on either side- and yet, they end up killing each other. I find it fascinating that GRRM keeps returning to this extremely tragic idea.




I actually wouldn't necessarily include the weirwoods vs Man in my accidental war category either, since men were burning the trees on purpose. It's not like they stopped after the COTF told them the trees were alive- they burned them because they were powerful and they felt threatened by them. So that was not a misunderstanding, but rather men were the aggressors.
I actually don't think we've seen an accidental war yet in ASOIAF. I am hoping that the original fight against the Others will turn out to have been one, but that's just my personal crackpot.

I'm glad you like it!
It completely blew me away when I first read it, it's such a powerful story. Definitely one of my very favorite GRRM stories!



Indeed it does. I was hoping you would see it that way.




And this certainly supports the idea of the Last Hero getting help from the COTF not via weapons, but communication. Communication that likely continued for a while, during which wildling women lay with the Others and which culminated in a marriage between a NW Lord Commander and an Other woman.




I wish there were more of the People around where I live. This sounds like it would be an amazing, life-changing experience, and right up my alley.



Exactly!!

I was hoping this story would bring you over to my side regarding the Others, and it seems it was more successful than I dared to hope, LOL.

Men know nothing about the Others, not why they attacked the last time (if indeed they were the attackers), what they wanted, how the conflict was ended, or wny the Others then disappeared. All they "know" is that the Others are "the enemy" and must be fought. I think it's safe to assume that in every Man/Other encounter since their reemergence, it would be Man's natural reaction to draw his sword when faced with an Other. That is certainly what we see with Ser Waymar and Small Paul - they are the aggressors, despite being vastly inferior fighters. Why do they draw their weapons? Because they are afraid of these beings who look different and whose language they cannot understand.




Agreed, again. And I think you're right, weirwood burning was (at least initially) a reaction of fear - fear of what Men did not know and did not understand. Fear brings out the worst in us, and tends to lead to an "us vs them" way of thinking - as is being demonstrated so effectively in the real world right now.




I'm not even sure I would say "willing". It seems to me that both sides thought they were acting in self defense. Greel responded to the unprovoked murder of his mind brother, and Von der Stadt fired his gun only after Greel jumped him and was stabbing him with his spear.
Sadly, for the survivors, it seemed as though Greel attacked them for no reason (or maybe because he was startled by the gunshot, making him seem like a savage). And since no one was around to correct them, this is the story they would bring back to the moon people - if they survived, which seems unlikely. It gives a deeper meaning to the common idea that history is written by the winners. It is certainly written by the survivors, but now I wonder if in many cases, the writers didn't intend to be misleading or one sided; there simply was no one around to provide the other perspective.




Yes yes yes!!! I love that you are drawing the parallels directly to the AGOT Prologue; that's exactly where I saw them as well (which is why I love this story so much).

Of course we don't know whether a less confrontational approach by Ser Waymar would have resulted in a different outcome - but in light of the story at hand, we have to at least wonder.




Good point. Normally, evolution at this level would require a much, much longer time to occur. It is also interesting that the People's language would have changed so much in such a short time, to the point that they don't understand English at all anymore.

GRRM does also provide us with another interesting possibility in The Stone City: the idea that in certain places far underground, time may not move at the same pace as it does everywhere else. While that particular scenario doesn't seem likely in this story, I wonder if we will see it in some way in ASOIAF, especially regarding Bran in his cave.



In the end, yes. But that wasn't his initial reaction. He was marveling at the pace of evolution, at how well the People had adapted to the tunnels. Von der Stadt, absolutely - he had the typical western "shoot first, think later" approach, restrained only by Ciffonetto's reminders that they were looking for survivors, for allies, and that a discovery would benefit their own people. Ciffonetto seems quite reasonable for most of the story; it just creeped me out how he edited his thoughts after the confrontation, dehumanizing Greel more and more to make himself feel less terrible about this disastrous first contact with the People.

It was in the darkness that it came for the first time, a demon from below, with a terrible, eyeless rat, big as hounds...




Yeah ok, I can't really disagree with any of this. Lol. I simply prefer the comparison to the Man/Other interactions over the Man/COTF conflict - but you're right, it could fit this one too. The only counterargument that comes to mind is that when the Andals arrived, they did the exact same thing- make war on the COTF and giants, and cut down the weirwoods. There would have been no language barrier this time since there were humans on both sides of the conflict (or if so, only as long as it took someone to learn the other language, so maybe a couple of years), which makes me less inclined to use this as an excuse for the FM. It always seemed to me as though GRRM was demonstrating that this is what Men do: they invade, take over all the land, kill previous inhabitants and carelessly disregard their customs and religion. Such wars aren't accidental, or waged out of fear - they are a competition for resources and a constant element in Man's reality. But that's obviously just my interpretation.