Why??? As long as Rhaegar had an rightfull heir from her, Jamie could have her and Rhaegar could get his two last dragonheads from someone else. (Ashara?) Everybody happy!
Just thinking about how Tywin loves his legacy. Setting aside Cersei would be a huge slight on the Lannister family honor.
Rhaegar does seem to have been more tactically savvy. But I'm thinking that he and Tywin may have ended up at loggerheads at some point, too. After all, I'm pretty sure Tywin double-crossed him in the end.
Yep! Rhaegar had plans for his realm, and wouldn't be satisfied with only wearing the crown. That is the problem with moulding a king, when they get the chance they want to rule. We see this with Aegon too. I too see a possible beginning of a powerstruggle between them at the end, maybe post-HH, where Rhaegar starts to assert himself. However, I'm more inclined to take Jamie at his word when he said that Tywin inteded to be on the winningside. So when Robert proved as strong as he did, he made plans to stay on his good side if he won. It was 50/50 in my view. Power trumps everything!
I doubt this--I'm pretty sure that Rhaegar would have de-Kingsguarded Jaime for Tywin had the marriage come off. Whatever Cersei did to get Jaime into the KG, if would not take much to convince Aerys to humiliate Tywin by taking his son and heir. Aerys was actively looking for ways to humiliate Tywin. Tywin was furious over Jaime's investiture--and Aerys knew he would be.
No--Cersei's manipulation would likely work far less well with Tywin and Rhaegar. And I really, really doubt Jaime would have been left in the KG if Tywin was Hand and Rhaegar was King.
Though that may have left Cersei with sleeping with other people--that I could buy.
Agreed--Jaime was too besotted to notice until after he was Kingsguarded that the whole thing was intended to humiliate Tywin. So, Cersei could have been manipulated--or it could just have been her stupidity undermining her family--again.
He absolutely was. She basicly fucked him into the KG! But after the hormones had settled down a bit (as much as they do in 15 year old boys that is), I think he probably gushed in the thought of mentoring with his hero just as much.
The only other knight to be de-kingsguard was Barristan and he was pissed. Who knows how a young Jaime would have reacted to that?
I doubt he would have reacted well--but he may have had no choice. And, given how much he idealized Rhaegar, if Rhaegar did it, Jaime might be willing to accept it.
They might also have waited a bit.
One way or another, if Rhaegar and Tywin had prevailed in getting rid of Aerys, no way Tywin would have put up with his heir being tied to the KG permanently. And no way Rhaegar didn't know this.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
LOL! She totally is. But I think much of Cersei's madness is due to her being forced to marry the drunk man-whore. Not all of it, of course. She has her own baggage. But without her struggles with Robert I don't see much cause for conflict.
Cersei was already humping Jaime. She was able to manipulate Aerys into making him KG. Once she realized Rhaegar's melancholy-ness was his personality (not his marriage to Elia) she probably would have manipulated Rhaegar & Aerys into letting Jaime be with them in Dragonstone. I'm sure calling a Great Council would push Aerys into a pyromaniac rage. With no one to stop him, boom goes KL.
Did she manipulate Aerys? I was under the impression Aerys wanted Jaime so that he could deny Tywin his heir. She might have been at the tourney of HH, but I don't think Cersei was even at court when Jaime got his cloak, so the promotion would have kept the two of them apart (at least until she married Robert).
To your other point, I think Jaime and Rhaegar's relationship was far stronger and deeper than is typically assumed. As I've detailed here, it is clear that Jaime loved Rhaegar. Rhaegar might have loved Jaime too, that I cannot say. But I do think we know with great certainty that Rhaegar trusted Jaime with precious duties and secrets (duty to protect Rhaegar's wife and children, secrets of his treasonous "changes").
And in the scenario you give, the Great Council, the wildfire plot, etc, let us bear in mind that Rhaegar was playing the game of thrones... and he was playing to win. He didn't. But he planned things very well in the event that he did. I think Cersei, Jaime, and Tywin expected to join him in very prominent roles after the victory. He did not prepare for loss though, and we see the ramifacations of that lack of foresight.
I won't go too far down that rabbit hole, but it is definitely a road not taken. I imagine Cersei would be far different today if *something* happened to Elia during Rhaegar's changes, and the two of them wed.
House Martell was famously anti-Targ for 100+ years. There was already angst between Houses Lannister and Martell. They could have been the ones provoked into rebellion instead of Robert, et al.
Quite true. But House Tyrell did not fight for the rebels even after the rebellion began, so I think this would be unlikely.
Don't get me wrong, the realm was ripe for civil war. I'm just saying that Jon Arryn is the one who started it. Not Aerys. Not Rhaegar. Not Robert. It was 100% Jon Arryn.
Cersei produced 3 healthy babies but they are Lannister on both sides. Given that her mother produced Tyrion and died in childbirth it's possible that Cersei may have had difficulty carrying a child from another bloodline. If the need for "one more" is what drove Rhaegar to Lyanna, it's still a possibility to occur.
Here, we agree. If Rhaegar ended up not keeping to one bed, he was most likely motivated by the need for Aegon to have another sister. And we know that dragonsperm is a far more complicated variety than other ejaculates. It tends to kill the child, kill the mother, deform the child, harm the mother's health, or some combination thereof.
Cersei might have handled it well, but it is just as likely, if not more likely, that it would have caused her some complications during her pregnancy/childbirth. And of course, this might well have been the very cause of Joanna's death, if Tyrion is not Tywin's son.
I'm not saying exact. But I think Lynn is right and GRRM is telling us that if this were a "Choose Your Own Adventure" the death toll would be the same.
Agreed. We've seen fates come true in asoiaf even when avoided.
And Rhaegar was still a dragon. His house will always seek fire and blood, and war is the surest way to find both. So I am likely making too much of his ability to mend the rifts in the realm. LOL
Plus, in my head-canon, Jon Arryn and Tywin were united in their purposes to install Rhaegar upon the throne. I believe Jon Arryn called the banners to enable Rhaegar's changes. Lyanna would have been an olive branch to calm their concerns after the war, if she hadn't ended up in a bloody bed.
It doesn't make sense at all. But all in all that isn't really relevant. For the sake of argument, say Arryn faked Aerys' last order of heads. Could he have done that if Aerys hadn't roasted Rickard and strangled Brandon? Would Aerys have done that if Brandon hadn't reacted as he did? Would Brandon have done that if Lyanna hadn't disappeared?
Sure. I am only pointing out where the ambitions lie. Brandon's ambitions were for Lyanna. Rickard's ambitions were for Brandon. And each of them was willing to give their life for the cause.
After their lives were given, Eddard did nothing. Robert did nothing.
That period of time was surely heavy with anger and pain, but still, no banners were called.
Why?
Why delay?
Why only call them once Aerys demanded (or was claimed to demand) the lordlings' heads?
It bespeaks a motive that is entirely removed from Lyanna, even if her disappearance set the excuses for the rebellion in motion.
The singers would have us believe that the war was fought because Rhaegar stole Robert's betrothed. That is a very sweet, romantic tale, but it is not one that reflects the history of the rebellion. It makes for a great rallying cry once the fight is on, but it was not the reason for the banners being called.
Granted, this detail probably matters only to me, LOL, but it is one that has always seemed rather peculiar.
It makes no sense that Aerys would demand the heads of two young lordlings. That claim started the war. If it isn't true, it surely reveals the conspirators (Jon Arryn, Tywin, Rhaegar).
All I'm saying is that it was a chain reaction. The velocity of said reaction isn't the most important thing, nor the exact circumstances within it. Peoples actions will determine the outcome. I think it was a situation where many Lords just waited for someone to raise their banners first, and Arryn did. Was the situation salvageable? Perhaps, for a time. The question becomes, would Rhaegar be able to take the throne without bloodshed? That I'm not so sure of.
And this is where I disagree, even if only a tad.
It wasn't treated as a chain reaction at the time. During the actual disappearance of Lyanna, Rickard did nothing. Eddard did nothing. Robert did nothing. Brandon demanded Rhaegar "come out and die."
After Brandon and Rickard's deaths, they still did nothing.
Surely Tywin or Balon or most lords in the realm would have called their banners long ago. But not Robert and Eddard. And, most importantly, not Jon Arryn.
The time was not yet right. We remember Illyrio and Varys' frustration at the premature war between wolf and lion. They wanted to delay that war so that Viserys/Aegon could return and win it. The third army always wins in asoiaf (see Stannis in the north, the Boltons at WF, etc).
So, Jon Arryn waited, and Ned and Robert were doing whatever it is they did together in the Vale. Robert was probably fucking and siring bastards. Ned was probably impersonating a wallflower.
But then, one day, Jon Arryn called his banners. The events of the past were surely further excuses to do so, but they were not the immediate cause. Not at all.
Jon Arryn had a novel cause, and it is one that may or may not have actually existed. Hence my belief that he and Tywin had conspired to time the rebellion at the best possible moment. The Rebels would clash with the King's Men, and the Prince would swoop in with the Dornishmen at he opportune moment and win the day.
What they underestimated was the power in Robert's arm. Robert's arm changed the course of history.
Prince Rhaegar was put in the best possible position to win the war, but he wasn't a very good warrior.
The chances of this is good I think, provided he could get the Houses under control and unite them. Not sure the Lannisters wouldn't be sneaky as they were with Robert, maybe to a lesser degree?
The Lannisters were sneaky with Robert, but they also enabled him. They get a bad rap because Cersei eventually killed him, but Tywin and Jaime were rather dutiful. Yes, Jaime was fucking the queen, but someone had to, and Robert was letting himself go. LOL
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Just thinking about how Tywin loves his legacy. Setting aside Cersei would be a huge slight on the Lannister family honor.
I totally forgot about him... Unless Cercei could talk him down saying everyone was happy, and all of them being descreet. I might be blinded by Saint Rhaegar again though...
Maybe--but I do think there still would have been power plays. the Dance of the Dragons makes that clear. And Robert doesn't because the realm innately dislikes him. He fails because he's a warrior, not a king.
Not saying it would have been utopian, dragons are not exactly level-headed creatures, but I do think Rhaegar would have been a better king that Robert and that subjects would have had better cause for loyalty.
Rhaegar does seem to have been more tactically savvy. But I'm thinking that he and Tywin may have ended up at loggerheads at some point, too. After all, I'm pretty sure Tywin double-crossed him in the end.
That's definitely Tywin's modus operandi. But if Robert had died at the Trident instead of Rhaegar, Cersei would have no claim to the throne. Elia would need to die for Cersei to marry Rhaegar, and we know Tywin was ready to make that happen.
The only variable for Tywin was which king returned from the Trident. He might have ensured it would be Robert, but I don't think so. I don't think anyone wanted Robert to be king (including Robert).
Now... considering the Lion of Lannister flew from the ramparts when Ned rode to the Red Keep, the Lions were prepared for both pretenders to die. And, in such a case, they would be able to ascend the throne by right of conquest, as they were the ones who completed the checkmate. It seems they were in the state of that very process when Ned arrived.
We know that Robert was wounded at the Trident seriously enough to delay his travels. I can't help but wonder if Tywin employed someone to wound Robert for this very purpose. If Robert died, the Lions would be able to claim the throne while keeping their host relatively fresh.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I doubt he would have reacted well--but he may have had no choice. And, given how much he idealized Rhaegar, if Rhaegar did it, Jaime might be willing to accept it.
They might also have waited a bit.
One way or another, if Rhaegar and Tywin had prevailed in getting rid of Aerys, no way Tywin would have put up with his heir being tied to the KG permanently. And no way Rhaegar didn't know this.
True. I'm thinking of hot-headed young Jaime wanting to flight and gain glory. He may have bit his tongue but I think he would have harbored some issues going from the youngest member of the KG to Lord of Casterly Rock. Which could have led to issues down the road. Ripple effect.
LOL! She totally is. But I think much of Cersei's madness is due to her being forced to marry the drunk man-whore. Not all of it, of course. She has her own baggage. But without her struggles with Robert I don't see much cause for conflict.
Here's what I'm thinking. We see how being with Robert affected her. Suppose it's melancholy, dutiful, honorable Rhaegar. She liked Jaime bc he was her without boobs. I would guess living a life with a man that all but ignores you vs. a good man without passion could lead to the same marital issues. She may not have had Rhaegar killed in a hunting "accident" but I think she would have had a tough time with that life.
Did she manipulate Aerys? I was under the impression Aerys wanted Jaime so that he could deny Tywin his heir. She might have been at the tourney of HH, but I don't think Cersei was even at court when Jaime got his cloak, so the promotion would have kept the two of them apart (at least until she married Robert).
Their father had summoned Cersei to court when she was twelve, hoping to make her a royal marriage. He refused every offer for her hand, preferring to keep her with him in the Tower of the Hand while she grew older and more womanly and ever more beautiful. No doubt he was waiting for Prince Viserys to mature, or perhaps for Rhaegar's wife to die in childbed. Elia of Dorne was never the healthiest of women. Jaime, meantime, had spent four years as squire to Ser Sumner Crake-hall and earned his spurs against the Kingswood Brotherhood. But when he made a brief call at King's Landing on his way back to Casterly Rock, chiefly to see his sister, Cersei took him aside and whispered that Lord Tywin meant to marry him to Lysa Tully, had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower. But if Jaime took the white, he could be near her always. Old Ser Harlan Grandison had died in his sleep, as was only appropriate for one whose sigil was a sleeping lion. Aerys would want a young man to take his place, so why not a roaring lion in place of a sleepy one? "Father will never consent," Jaime objected.
A moon's turn later, a royal raven arrived at Casterly Rock to inform him that he had been chosen for the Kingsguard. He was commanded to present himself to the king during the great tourney at Harrenhal to say his vows and don his cloak. Jaime's investiture freed him from Lysa Tully. Elsewise, nothing went as planned. His father had never been more furious. He could not object openly—Cersei had judged that correctly—but he resigned the Handship on some thin pretext and returned to Casterly Rock, taking his daughter with him. Instead of being together, Cersei and Jaime just changed places, and he found himself alone at court, guarding a mad king while four lesser men took their turns dancing on knives in his father's ill-fitting shoes. So swiftly did the Hands rise and fall that Jaime remembered their heraldry better than their faces. The horn-of-plenty Hand and the dancing griffins Hand had both been exiled, the mace-and-dagger Hand dipped in wildfire and burned alive. Lord Rossart had been the last. His sigil had been a burning torch; an unfortunate choice, given the fate of his predecessor, but the alchemist had been elevated largely because he shared the king's passion for fire. I ought to have drowned Rossart instead of gutting him.
It was her "plan". I think she played on Aerys desire to hurt Tywin.
She was 12 and Rhaegar already had a wife and newborn/child on the way (depending on the month). That's some batshit crazy plotting for at such an age.
Quite true. But House Tyrell did not fight for the rebels even after the rebellion began, so I think this would be unlikely.
Don't get me wrong, the realm was ripe for civil war. I'm just saying that Jon Arryn is the one who started it. Not Aerys. Not Rhaegar. Not Robert. It was 100% Jon Arryn.
I believe Jon Arryn called the banners to enable Rhaegar's changes. Lyanna would have been an olive branch to calm their concerns after the war, if she hadn't ended up in a bloody bed.
That's interesting!
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
Here's what I'm thinking. We see how being with Robert affected her. Suppose it's melancholy, dutiful, honorable Rhaegar. She liked Jaime bc he was her without boobs. I would guess living a life with a man that all but ignores you vs. a good man without passion could lead to the same marital issues. She may not have had Rhaegar killed in a hunting "accident" but I think she would have had a tough time with that life.
She liked Rhaegar for much the same reason as she liked Jaime – both men were beautiful. But I do agree that Rhaegar was likely a bit boring compared to Jaime. Although, some of his dutiful nature in the sack could have been due to Elia's health/looks.
Then, of course, there is the very real possibility that Rhaegar was gay, and this would explain much and more. A valid case can be made for the prince leading on at least two men... Jaime and Jon Connington. Then there is Rhaegar's very close "friendship" with Arthur of House Dayne. Who knows what Arthur and Rhaegar had been up to at their tower of joy.
Renly was our modern-day Rhaegar, and Loras was our modern-day Jaime/Arthur. Such devotion might not be a romantic affair, but we have precedent for the possibility that it can be.
It was her "plan". I think she played on Aerys desire to hurt Tywin.
She was 12 and Rhaegar already had a wife and newborn/child on the way (depending on the month). That's some batshit crazy plotting for at such an age.
I bow, corrected. I remember that passage now. Still, we don't know if Aerys needed to be convinced, as naming Jaime to the KG served his own cold war with Tywin, but I must admit I completely forgot that Cersei ever had the idea at all.
And yes. Wow. That is some very LF-level stuff from a 12 year old! So I must concede the point. Cersei was indeed the crazy plotter long before her marriage to Robert.
Two Stark traitors had been put to death. The realm was at peace. Aerys does not want to enable Rhaegar's changes, and is already aware of and troubled by his son's plans for a Great Council. The last thing Aerys wants is more enemies. Varys is advising him, and he heeds the eunuch's advice.
Most importantly, beyond all of that, the realm is at peace. There is no war. There are some subjects who are unhappy with the king, but they are nonetheless keeping the king's peace as they had been for decades (and in some cases, like the Tullys of Riverrun, centuries).
During that peace, Jon Arryn calls his banners in revolt against the crown. Houses bound to Jon Arryn via Marriage Pacts are obligated to join his call to arms, but they themselves had up to that point been loyal subjects of the crown.
Ned's own father rode to King's Landing to reaffirm House Stark's allegiance. That tells us quite a bit about who wanted the war to happen, in my opinion, because if anyone had cause to revolt, it was Rickard – not Jon.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
She liked Rhaegar for much the same reason as she liked Jaime – both men were beautiful. But I do agree that Rhaegar was likely a bit boring compared to Jaime. Although, some of his dutiful nature in the sack could have been due to Elia's health/looks.
Then, of course, there is the very real possibility that Rhaegar was gay, and this would explain much and more. A valid case can be made for the prince leading on at least two men... Jaime and Jon Connington. Then there is Rhaegar's very close "friendship" with Arthur of House Dayne. Who knows what Arthur and Rhaegar had been up to at their tower of joy.
Renly was our modern-day Rhaegar, and Loras was our modern-day Jaime/Arthur. Such devotion might not be a romantic affair, but we have precedent for the possibility that it can be.
Quite true! I had not thought about him holding back bc of Elia's delicate nature. He might not be such a bore...after all, he did crown another woman the Queen of Love and Beauty when his second son was still a babe. That's balls! Maybe he just needed the Wolf Girl.
I remember that passage now. Still, we don't know if Aerys needed to be convinced, as naming Jaime to the KG served his own cold war with Tywin, but I must admit I completely forgot that Cersei ever had the idea at all.
And yes. Wow. That is some very LF-level stuff from a 12 year old! So I must concede the point. Cersei was indeed the crazy plotter long before her marriage to Robert.
Oh I doubt it took much. LOL She probably just hid in earshot and spoke to another girl, "Boy I hope Aerys doesn't name my brother to the KG! Daddy would be so mad to lose his heir!" Seed planted.
BTW - Kind of silly of Tywin to expect Aerys to betroth his only heir (at the time) to a girl seven years his junior. Rhaella has issues popping out babies. Of course Aerys would want him hitched and procreating ASAP. He told Cersei when she was 6 or 7, making Rhaegar 13-14, almost a man grown.
As Rhaegar tells Jaime...
When the battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.[
Two Stark traitors had been put to death. The realm was at peace. Aerys does not want to enable Rhaegar's changes, and is already aware of and troubled by his son's plans for a Great Council. The last thing Aerys wants is more enemies. Varys is advising him, and he heeds the eunuch's advice.
Most importantly, beyond all of that, the realm is at peace. There is no war. There are some subjects who are unhappy with the king, but they are nonetheless keeping the king's peace as they had been for decades (and in some cases, like the Tullys of Riverrun, centuries).
During that peace, Jon Arryn calls his banners in revolt against the crown. Houses bound to Jon Arryn via Marriage Pacts are obligated to join his call to arms, but they themselves had up to that point been loyal subjects of the crown.
Ned's own father rode to King's Landing to reaffirm House Stark's allegiance. That tells us quite a bit about who wanted the war to happen, in my opinion, because if anyone had cause to revolt, it was Rickard – not Jon.
I hear what you're saying. BUT... IDK if "unhappy" is the best way to describe it. Aerys had just killed Brandon Stark, Rickard Stark, Elbert Arryn (Jon's nephew and heir), Kyle Royce (from the Vale) and Jeffory Mallister. That's not peace. Turning around and then demanding the heads of his wards was the worst thing Aerys could have done. I don't think Jon had a choice. He would have inflamed the North, the Vale, the Riverlands (Tully betrothal) and the Stormlands.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
LOL! She totally is. But I think much of Cersei's madness is due to her being forced to marry the drunk man-whore. Not all of it, of course. She has her own baggage. But without her struggles with Robert I don't see much cause for conflict.
I won't even try to pretend not to be biased against Cercei, LOL! However, reading her memories from childhood and what Oberyn saw at CR... The one with best chances to keep her somewhat stable is Jamie, but I wouldn't hold my breath in that case either. Sorry, but that girl was far from just having some issues. Robert was just one of many options that would drive her crazy.
bespeaks a motive that is entirely removed from Lyanna, even if her disappearance set the excuses for the rebellion in motion.
The singers would have us believe that the war was fought because Rhaegar stole Robert's betrothed. That is a very sweet, romantic tale, but it is not one that reflects the history of the rebellion. It makes for a great rallying cry once the fight is on, but it was not the reason for the banners being called.
Granted, this detail probably matters only to me, LOL, but it is one that has always seemed rather peculiar.
Maybe I've been a bit unclear. I don't think Lyanna was any rallying cry during the rebellion, not even for the masses. Ned would fight for that too, once it got started and provided he knew she was gone. Robert might thump his chest, but ultimately it would be more of a byline I think. It created a spark, but often the blast that follows is what gets the attention.
It wasn't treated as a chain reaction at the time. During the actual disappearance of Lyanna, Rickard did nothing. Eddard did nothing. Robert did nothing. Brandon demanded Rhaegar "come out and die."
After Brandon and Rickard's deaths, they still did nothing.
Surely Tywin or Balon or most lords in the realm would have called their banners long ago. But not Robert and Eddard. And, most importantly, not Jon Arryn.
The time was not yet right. We remember Illyrio and Varys' frustration at the premature war between wolf and lion. They wanted to delay that war so that Viserys/Aegon could return and win it. The third army always wins in asoiaf (see Stannis in the north, the Boltons at WF, etc).
So, Jon Arryn waited, and Ned and Robert were doing whatever it is they did together in the Vale. Robert was probably fucking and siring bastards. Ned was probably impersonating a wallflower.
But then, one day, Jon Arryn called his banners. The events of the past were surely further excuses to do so, but they were not the immediate cause. Not at all.
Jon Arryn had a novel cause, and it is one that may or may not have actually existed. Hence my belief that he and Tywin had conspired to time the rebellion at the best possible moment. The Rebels would clash with the King's Men, and the Prince would swoop in with the Dornishmen at he opportune moment and win the day.
What they underestimated was the power in Robert's arm. Robert's arm changed the course of history.
Prince Rhaegar was put in the best possible position to win the war, but he wasn't a very good warrior.
I'll have to chew on this a bit. Not bad at all, just a subject a bit down on my list. And I'm fully on Jamie today, so a bit hard to change subject with him flying around in my head! Just a couple of things that came to mind:
So, Jon Arryn waited, and Ned and Robert were doing whatever it is they did together in the Vale. Robert was probably fucking and siring bastards. Ned was probably impersonating a wallflower.
After drying my tears of laughter, are you thinking they didn't know what was going on? Ned and Robert that is. While I see Robert drowning his worries and netherthings in booze and women, methinks Ned would have other things than wallflowers on his mind. Like brooding over now being lord of Winterfell? Or perhaps being a tad bit upset over his dad and brother being killed? He might just wonder where his sister is, no? Also, Jon would have enough control over Ned to keep him from acting. Ned is not Brandon after all. But he does have a temper that can flare up, as we see in GoT.
What they underestimated was the power in Robert's arm. Robert's arm changed the course of history.
Prince Rhaegar was put in the best possible position to win the war, but he wasn't a very good warrior.
I highly doubt Arryn was unaware of Roberts hammer-arm... And didn't he win most melèes he competed in? So I don't really see his prowess with his hammer being that little known. It did change history, though, and I'm inclined to curse it...
As for Rhaegar, see my question below. The quote came in the wrong place and I'm too lazy to move it.
The Lannisters were sneaky with Robert, but they also enabled him. They get a bad rap because Cersei eventually killed him, but Tywin and Jaime were rather dutiful. Yes, Jaime was fucking the queen, but someone had to, and Robert was letting himself go. LOL
I'm thinking more of Tywins desire to have his grandbabies on the throne, and wanting the power. Cercei is just a huge inconvinience he was unlucky to have as only card unless he took the throne himself. He and Jamie conducted themselves dutiful as you say when they had so, no argument there.
As for Cercei: just lock her in a tower and seal all enterances! (Yes, I know I'm a bit harsh on her)
Not saying it would have been utopian, dragons are not exactly level-headed creatures, but I do think Rhaegar would have been a better king that Robert and that subjects would have had better cause for loyalty.
We know that Robert was wounded at the Trident seriously enough to delay his travels. I can't help but wonder if Tywin employed someone to wound Robert for this very purpose. If Robert died, the Lions would be able to claim the throne while keeping their host relatively fresh.
My understanding was that Rhaegar wounded him? They were at it for some time, no? I am by no means an expert on this battle!
Here's what I'm thinking. We see how being with Robert affected her. Suppose it's melancholy, dutiful, honorable Rhaegar. She liked Jaime bc he was her without boobs. I would guess living a life with a man that all but ignores you vs. a good man without passion could lead to the same marital issues. She may not have had Rhaegar killed in a hunting "accident" but I think she would have had a tough time with that life.
was her "plan". I think she played on Aerys desire to hurt Tywin.
She was 12 and Rhaegar already had a wife and newborn/child on the way (depending on the month). That's some batshit crazy plotting for at such an age.
Was it really her plan? I wonder if someone planted the idea in her head... She is only 12 after all, and not the sharpest I suspect.
I hear what you're saying. BUT... IDK if "unhappy" is the best way to describe it. Aerys had just killed Brandon Stark, Rickard Stark, Elbert Arryn (Jon's nephew and heir), Kyle Royce (from the Vale) and Jeffory Mallister. That's not peace. Turning around and then demanding the heads of his wards was the worst thing Aerys could have done. I don't think Jon had a choice. He would have inflamed the North, the Vale, the Riverlands (Tully betrothal) and the Stormlands.
You could delay it for a bit, but methinks a reaction would've come!
You could delay it for a bit, but methinks a reaction would've come!
I agree. All of those Houses would've been calling for blood. Even if Rhaegar disposed of his dad and spoke to them whose to say that would have been enough. The son would probably pay for the sins of the father. Look at Robert, He wanted to go all Raines of Castamere on the Targs. He's a bit more hot-headed than most but I doubt the slighted Houses would have let that go.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
I agree. All of those Houses would've been calling for blood. Even if Rhaegar disposed of his dad and spoke to them whose to say that would have been enough. The son would probably pay for the sins of the father. Look at Robert, He wanted to go all Raines of Castamere on the Targs. He's a bit more hot-headed than most but I doubt the slighted Houses would have let that go.
I don't take Robert as the best example, LOL! It might be that the rebellion would've got the bloodthirst out of the system to most of them, and peace after negotiations. After all, they probably saw Aerys at HH.
I don't take Robert as the best example, LOL! It might be that the rebellion would've got the bloodthirst out of the system to most of them, and peace after negotiations. After all, they probably saw Aerys at HH.
Haha! You're right. Bad example. How about Lady B? She's still harboring some serious anger.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
Quite true! I had not thought about him holding back bc of Elia's delicate nature. He might not be such a bore...after all, he did crown another woman the Queen of Love and Beauty when his second son was still a babe. That's balls! Maybe he just needed the Wolf Girl.
Mayhaps. But that's a whole other can of worms. Lyanna was 13, a wild beauty but tomboyish, and Rhaegar was 22. It doesn't make sense that his loins should burn to the point of abduction for his cousin's betrothed when she is practically a child. Unless Rhae had a pedo streak, which of course I can't rule out.
But regarding libido, Elia might well have had something to do with that. Impossible to say. Stannis could have wed Ashara Dayne, for example, but I don't think it would have made him any more interested in sex.
Oh I doubt it took much. LOL She probably just hid in earshot and spoke to another girl, "Boy I hope Aerys doesn't name my brother to the KG! Daddy would be so mad to lose his heir!" Seed planted.
BTW - Kind of silly of Tywin to expect Aerys to betroth his only heir (at the time) to a girl seven years his junior. Rhaella has issues popping out babies. Of course Aerys would want him hitched and procreating ASAP. He told Cersei when she was 6 or 7, making Rhaegar 13-14, almost a man grown.
As Rhaegar tells Jaime...
When the battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.
That's one of my favorite passages in the books, because it reveals the plot. In spite of the roads not taken, Rhaegar was planning on making changes. And that is treason.
But regarding the age disparity, I can again only agree. Now imagine if Cersei were only 4 or 5 years old. (that would give you the age difference between Rhaegar and Lyanna)
And we have reason to believe, from Rhaegar's own brother, that such a bedding would be quite odd:
"She's too skinny," Viserys said. His hair, the same silver-blond as hers, had been pulled back tightly behind his head and fastened with a dragonbone brooch. It was a severe look that emphasized the hard, gaunt lines of his face. He rested his hand on the hilt of the sword that Illyrio had lent him, and said, "Are you sure that Khal Drogo likes his women this young?"
Dany was 13 when Rhaegar's brother spoke those words. And I'd be willing to be that Lyanna looked "too skinny" at that age too. It's been a common way to describe Arya, at least.
I hear what you're saying. BUT... IDK if "unhappy" is the best way to describe it. Aerys had just killed Brandon Stark, Rickard Stark, Elbert Arryn (Jon's nephew and heir), Kyle Royce (from the Vale) and Jeffory Mallister. That's not peace. Turning around and then demanding the heads of his wards was the worst thing Aerys could have done. I don't think Jon had a choice. He would have inflamed the North, the Vale, the Riverlands (Tully betrothal) and the Stormlands.
All true. But the king keeping the peace, and dispensing justice, is not war. That's just what kings do. It was still a time of peace.
I agree wholeheartedly that tensions were growing, but that is a far cry from war. Just look at the United States today. We have severe divisions between Trumpsters and (Thinkers? lol) Non-Trumpsters. Tensions often boil over into violence. We've seen spikes in hate crimes, and even lynchings.
While we are not 100% peaceful, we are still a long way from the kind of conflict one sees in a civil war.
Jon Arryn brought that termoil to a head when he called his banners. Either he lied about the head-request, or he disobeyed an order from the king. Barristan was wrong. Thousands did not die because Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna. Thousands died because Jon Arryn broke the king's peace.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I won't even try to pretend not to be biased against Cercei, LOL! However, reading her memories from childhood and what Oberyn saw at CR... The one with best chances to keep her somewhat stable is Jamie, but I wouldn't hold my breath in that case either. Sorry, but that girl was far from just having some issues. Robert was just one of many options that would drive her crazy.
Cersei deserves it.
And yes, you and DarkSister1001 are right. Her mental state goes well beyond "issues."
Maybe I've been a bit unclear. I don't think Lyanna was any rallying cry during the rebellion, not even for the masses. Ned would fight for that too, once it got started and provided he knew she was gone. Robert might thump his chest, but ultimately it would be more of a byline I think. It created a spark, but often the blast that follows is what gets the attention.
I still disagree that it created a spark, unless we are talking about Brandon-only. Rickard and Eddard were content to keep the peace well after Lyanna's disappearance.
I'll have to chew on this a bit. Not bad at all, just a subject a bit down on my list. And I'm fully on Jamie today, so a bit hard to change subject with him flying around in my head!
After drying my tears of laughter, are you thinking they didn't know what was going on? Ned and Robert that is. While I see Robert drowning his worries and netherthings in booze and women, methinks Ned would have other things than wallflowers on his mind. Like brooding over now being lord of Winterfell? Or perhaps being a tad bit upset over his dad and brother being killed? He might just wonder where his sister is, no?
Sure. Ned certainly thinks about his sister often, even now. So I wouldn't be surprised to learn he thought of her during her disappearance. But is lack of action is what stands out to me.
Brandon's reaction made sense to me. The inaction of Eddard and Robert does not.
And I should point out that I am really only sparring with a strawman, because the reason I am making this argument is because there is a popular theory on the interwebs of a Northern Alliance, and a Northern Conspiracy, and the "southron ambitions" of the Starks. And this is what I mean to confront, because I simply don't see it.
It seems to me that Rickard went out of his way to keep faith with the crown. So if there was a conspiracy, it was Jon Arryn's, rather than Rickard's.
I think we should also look upon Jon Arryn with a great deal of suspicion. In addition to being the first man to revolt against the crown, he was fostering not one, but two lords' sons, while brokering marriage pacts with houses Tully, Stark, Baratheon, and eventually, Lannister.
I might also point out that no one gained as much from the rebellion than Jon Arryn. We know that any Hand of Robert's would have been for all intents and purposes, King Regent.
And lastly, while I'm throwing shade at the corpse of the Warden of the East, I should add that he was ALSO serving as master to an apprentice named Petyr Baelish.
Also, Jon would have enough control over Ned to keep him from acting. Ned is not Brandon after all. But he does have a temper that can flare up, as we see in GoT.
Absolutely. And the bold is precisely what I'm driving at.
Jon Arryn had enough control to dictate the terms and timing of the rebellion. In his possession were: 1 The Lord of Winterfell, 2 The Lord of Storm's End, and soon, 3 The Daughter of Hoster Tully. That is an incredible amount of control and leverage for one Lord that we have not seen since.
Jon Arryn is treated like a saint, but he did not call the banners when Lyanna went missing. He did not call the banners when Brandon was arrested. He did not call the banners when Rickard was cooked in his armor, while Brandon watched and suffocated.
Nope. Instead, Jon Arryn waited for his malleable ward to become Lord of Winterfell. Rickard Stark might be alive today, and possibly even Brandon, if they had called their banners immediately after Lyanna's disappearance.
But of course, it does no good to dwell upon roads not taken.
I highly doubt Arryn was unaware of Roberts hammer-arm... And didn't he win most melèes he competed in? So I don't really see his prowess with his hammer being that little known. It did change history, though, and I'm inclined to curse it...
True. Not saying Robert was seen as a pushover, but I don't think anyone imagined he would be a better king than Rhaegar.
I'm thinking more of Tywins desire to have his grandbabies on the throne, and wanting the power. Cercei is just a huge inconvinience he was unlucky to have as only card unless he took the throne himself. He and Jamie conducted themselves dutiful as you say when they had so, no argument there.
Yes. This is where motives become a bit clearer, imo. Tywin wanted power and real power/influence over the king. This is why I don't think he would have wanted Robert on the throne. Robert was Jon's creature, as much as Rhaegar was his.
My understanding was that Rhaegar wounded him? They were at it for some time, no? I am by no means an expert on this battle!
No, you're correct. Robert was wounded by Rhaegar. I was just imagining another blow, struck from a paid turncloak, that might have been credited to Rhaegar.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."