She was 12 and Rhaegar already had a wife and newborn/child on the way (depending on the month). That's some batshit crazy plotting for at such an age.
Because you favor RLJ, I must point out that this is nearly exactly what that theory proposes. Rhaegar, a year older and wiser, after his son's birth, conspires to steal a child-woman. Why isn't that seen as batshit crazy plotting?
And what of Lyanna's convictions on fidelity? Why would a 12-13 year old tomboy suddenly swoon for a married man with two kids? And even more perplexing, why would she want his child after his father had cooked her father and killed her brother?
/derail
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
She was 12 and Rhaegar already had a wife and newborn/child on the way (depending on the month). That's some batshit crazy plotting for at such an age.
Because you favor RLJ, I must point out that this is nearly exactly what that theory proposes. Rhaegar, a year older and wiser, after his son's birth, conspires to steal a child-woman. Why isn't that seen as batshit crazy plotting?
And what of Lyanna's convictions on fidelity? Why would a 12-13 year old tomboy suddenly swoon for a married man with two kids? And even more perplexing, why would she want his child after his father had cooked her father and killed her brother?
/derail
Lol, you got me! There's holes in the theory. Ive never claimed otherwise. Just not as many holes as the others. Plus wasn't she closer to 16? Only a few years but mountains of maturity between 12-13 yo and 15-16. Lastly, Cersei bias! Lol
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
IMO it was the manipulation of Aerys that gave her such a big head. He was weak and easy to manipulate. (C'mon, open your gates!)
Nah, that was her brilliant father. He grew her head out of proportion to what could fill the space! Aerys was just an ego-boost. I'm thinking maybe someone planted the idea into her airhead Littlefinger-style, so she thought it was her own idea and that she succeded. Someone connected to Rhaegar perhaps?
That last bit, I think Cercei heard that more often than Aerys! LOL!
Haha! You're right. Bad example. How about Lady B? She's still harboring some serious anger.
And still keeping the peace. While there would be anger still, if Rhaegar had got the upperhand on the rebels a peace could have been negotiated. And in time things could be mended. Though I don't think Rhaegars rule would be all peace and love, it would be far better than Aerys.
That's one of my favorite passages in the books, because it reveals the plot. In spite of the roads not taken, Rhaegar was planning on making changes. And that is treason.
Yep! And he had been planning it for some time. It was my exit from the shrine of Saint Rhaegar.
I still disagree that it created a spark, unless we are talking about Brandon-only. Rickard and Eddard were content to keep the peace well after Lyanna's disappearance.
For the moment I think we have to disagree on this one. Not sure Rickard or Ned was fully content with this either, even if they chose to do so.
LOL! He can have that effect! Luckily I don't have the tendency another bovinesque character does: when Gendry thinks it looks like he's in physical pain... Jamies arc is one of the more interesting and I've enjoyed immersing my self in it. But maybe Brienne clung to my subconcious there! Thank you for pointing that out, so I can pry her loose!
Sure. Ned certainly thinks about his sister often, even now. So I wouldn't be surprised to learn he thought of her during her disappearance. But is lack of action is what stands out to me.
Brandon's reaction made sense to me. The inaction of Eddard and Robert does not.
I wouldn't go so far as saying Brandons reaction made sense, as it's practically suicide. But a reaction does. Just because we haven't heard of one frome N&R, doesn't mean there wasn't. So I'm not ruling it out just yet.
And I should point out that I am really only sparring with a strawman, because the reason I am making this argument is because there is a popular theory on the interwebs of a Northern Alliance, and a Northern Conspiracy, and the "southron ambitions" of the Starks. And this is what I mean to confront, because I simply don't see it.
Haha, I know! I've barely scratched the surface on those 2-3, where the most consise "research" was watching one video on the NC. So I'm way out of my depth being a sparringpartner for you. All I have is questions and loosely formed thoughts.
It seems to me that Rickard went out of his way to keep faith with the crown. So if there was a conspiracy, it was Jon Arryn's, rather than Rickard's.
I think we should also look upon Jon Arryn with a great deal of suspicion. In addition to being the first man to revolt against the crown, he was fostering not one, but two lords' sons, while brokering marriage pacts with houses Tully, Stark, Baratheon, and eventually, Lannister.
I might also point out that no one gained as much from the rebellion than Jon Arryn. We know that any Hand of Robert's would have been for all intents and purposes, King Regent.
And lastly, while I'm throwing shade at the corpse of the Warden of the East, I should add that he was ALSO serving as master to an apprentice named Petyr Baelish.
Red flags, everywhere! lol
I wonder if Arryn had red as a favorite color, as he's one huge red flag. Not seeing him as a benevolent elderly man at all.
Absolutely. And the bold is precisely what I'm driving at.
Jon Arryn had enough control to dictate the terms and timing of the rebellion. In his possession were: 1 The Lord of Winterfell, 2 The Lord of Storm's End, and soon, 3 The Daughter of Hoster Tully. That is an incredible amount of control and leverage for one Lord that we have not seen since.
Jon Arryn is treated like a saint, but he did not call the banners when Lyanna went missing. He did not call the banners when Brandon was arrested. He did not call the banners when Rickard was cooked in his armor, while Brandon watched and suffocated.
Nope. Instead, Jon Arryn waited for his malleable ward to become Lord of Winterfell. Rickard Stark might be alive today, and possibly even Brandon, if they had called their banners immediately after Lyanna's disappearance.
But of course, it does no good to dwell upon roads not taken.
Makes me wonder if Brandon really asked Ashara to dance on behalf of his brother, or if he pushed her into his arms... All her other dancingpartners we hear of was connected to Rhaegar, with Ned as the only exeption.
True. Not saying Robert was seen as a pushover, but I don't think anyone imagined he would be a better king than Rhaegar.
No, there we agree! Why didn't Arryn just send him over to Essos and the free companies for a few years??? Everyone (exept Ned I suppose) would be so much happier!
Yes. This is where motives become a bit clearer, imo. Tywin wanted power and real power/influence over the king. This is why I don't think he would have wanted Robert on the throne. Robert was Jon's creature, as much as Rhaegar was his.
No, you're correct. Robert was wounded by Rhaegar. I was just imagining another blow, struck from a paid turncloak, that might have been credited to Rhaegar.
LOL, there you were just confusing me! My attention isn't the best in relation to battles, so I could easily miss something in those parts! I'm inclined to think Rhaegars ability to wound Robert speaks to his fightingskill. Better than his rep often says. Granted it wasn't his primary nature, but he was highly motivated. Robert could easily have gone into full berserker-mode, and that is hard to withstand. Though I'll keep that turncloak of yours in the back of my mind.
Because you favor RLJ, I must point out that this is nearly exactly what that theory proposes. Rhaegar, a year older and wiser, after his son's birth, conspires to steal a child-woman. Why isn't that seen as batshit crazy plotting?
And what of Lyanna's convictions on fidelity? Why would a 12-13 year old tomboy suddenly swoon for a married man with two kids? And even more perplexing, why would she want his child after his father had cooked her father and killed her brother?
Lol, you got me! There's holes in the theory. Ive never claimed otherwise. Just not as many holes as the others. Plus wasn't she closer to 16? Only a few years but mountains of maturity between 12-13 yo and 15-16. Lastly, Cersei bias! Lol
I'm no RLJ, as there's too big holes for me (+ personal dislike, to be honest). I do believe she was 15 when she disappeared, wich makes it a little less pedo-like. This goes for any of her potential fathers to her potential baby, not just Rhaegar. Girls develop fast at that age, so hard to say how girly or womanly she had become.
Lol, you got me! There's holes in the theory. Ive never claimed otherwise. Just not as many holes as the others. Plus wasn't she closer to 16? Only a few years but mountains of maturity between 12-13 yo and 15-16. Lastly, Cersei bias! Lol
K. I've calculated these ages and dates so many times that you'd think I have them memorized, but I don't. I recalculate them every time it comes up. Until now! LOL
I made a table (because, yes, I am a nerd) so that we might easily compare their ages:
Now, I have used the earliest plausible date of Lyanna's death (the tower of joy dates supplied by @prettypig and kinglittlefinger in their timelines), but she might well have died later than 283. We simply don't know. If she died, as I suspect, in 284 AC rather than Nov, 283 AC, then that means she was born in 268 AC, and she would have been a year younger than listed for each of Rhaegar's acts in the table above.
To give RLJ a bit more leeway, I went with the earliest plausible date for Lyanna's death. She's still pretty young, and Rhaegar is still quite a bit older than she.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Post by DarkSister1001 on Jun 4, 2017 13:34:14 GMT
Just woke up and had a thought, I'll come back to the other posts after caffeine. When comparing Cersei and Lyanna, age aside, Cersei tortured her newborn brother and killed her own friend bc she like Jaime. Wasn't she around 10? Whereas Lyanna may have had the wolf blood but she was the kind of person that defended the weak, Howland and cried over a song.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
Sorry, I've been off the internet for a few days. Just moved my mother and sold my house. Now I have to find a place to live. LOL Haven't had a chance to go through the thread yet. I've also brought up this passage with Ravenous Reader at W and RR has some interesting things to say as well. voice, I think you're being baited summat for a comment over there. LOL! The convo starts here. I'm sure you're up for the challenge.
I would also add that this passage in the epilogue points directly to the Rhaegar passage discussed in Voice's Rhaegar's Catspaw where Rheagar also talks about the Road Not Taken. So what the heck does that tell us?
And very strangely, shortly after posting about the Road Not Taken; Martin commented in a recent SSM about the Road Not Taken, a script he wrote for the Twilight Zone. Coincidence? I don't think so. LOL. The script outline is interesting and puzzling. Not only that Martin makes the same comment as Robert Frost... wishing that he could clone himself so he could do everything he wanted to. So what is he telling us besides the fact that he's taking the less travelled road for himself right now.
Ned's own father rode to King's Landing to reaffirm House Stark's allegiance.
Where did you get this notion?
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
DarkSister1001 , voice , the official story is that she fell, and Cercei never outright admits she pushed her in her POV. But it's strongly hinted that she did, as Cercei remember hearing her friend cry for help down the well and doing nothing. This is what cements it for me that Cercei was batshit crazy even at that age.
I would also add that this passage in the epilogue points directly to the Rhaegar passage discussed in Voice's Rhaegar's Catspaw where Rheagar also talks about the Road Not Taken. So what the heck does that tell us?
Didn't notice this while reading the books. I've been in that thread recently, so I did pick it up here. Still working on it though.
Sorry, I've been off the internet for a few days. Just moved my mother and sold my house. Now I have to find a place to live. LOL Haven't had a chance to go through the thread yet. I've also brought up this passage with Ravenous Reader at W and RR has some interesting things to say as well. voice, I think you're being baited summat for a comment over there. LOL! The convo starts here. I'm sure you're up for the challenge.
I would also add that this passage in the epilogue points directly to the Rhaegar passage discussed in Voice's Rhaegar's Catspaw where Rheagar also talks about the Road Not Taken. So what the heck does that tell us?
And very strangely, shortly after posting about the Road Not Taken; Martin commented in a recent SSM about the Road Not Taken, a script he wrote for the Twilight Zone. Coincidence? I don't think so. LOL. The script outline is interesting and puzzling. Not only that Martin makes the same comment as Robert Frost... wishing that he could clone himself so he could do everything he wanted to. So what is he telling us besides the fact that he's taking the less travelled road for himself right now.
Sounds like you've had your plate full, good luck!
I wonder if it's George's way of telling us the "what ifs" didn't matter, it was destiny. So we'd calm out minds on the if Ned didnt..., if Arya didnt..., Theon, etc.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
Sorry, I've been off the internet for a few days. Just moved my mother and sold my house. Now I have to find a place to live. LOL Haven't had a chance to go through the thread yet.
Sounds like you certainly have your hands full! Congrats on selling the house though!
I've also brought up this passage with Ravenous Reader at W and RR has some interesting things to say as well. voice, I think you're being baited summat for a comment over there. LOL! The convo starts here. I'm sure you're up for the challenge.
I would also add that this passage in the epilogue points directly to the Rhaegar passage discussed in Voice's Rhaegar's Catspaw where Rheagar also talks about the Road Not Taken. So what the heck does that tell us?
My take on it is that Rhaegar has planned Aerys' death before, and that he regrets not making a change in leadership earlier.
It's worth remembering that Duskendale came close to making Rhaegar's changes long ago.
"The Others take both of you," Ned muttered darkly. He turned away from them and went to the window. She did not speak, nor did the maester. They waited, quiet, while Eddard Stark said a silent farewell to the home he loved. When he turned away from the window at last, his voice was tired and full of melancholy, and moisture glittered faintly in the corners of his eyes. "My father went south once, to answer the summons of a king. He never came home again."
We know that summons came when Brandon was in custody, since it was Rickard's one-way ticket.
Granted, we do not know what Rickard said, and once at court, he might have become defiant. But, obeying the king's subpoena was in and of itself an act of allegiance and fealty.
We know from the war that soon came after that if Rickard had called his banners, rather than answer the summons, that he would have been supported by houses Tully, Baratheon, and Arryn. But he instead obeyed the king's order, kept the king's peace, and met the king's justice.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I had been working on a rather lovely (and long) post, and it addressed the OP and all the comments, that I just lost! Poof! Gone!
Maybe I will get up the ambition to try again, but I will do the short version to respond to the OP.
This is a really nice OP. Very thoughtful!
If I have ever read this poem before, I certainly don't remember it. And then I read it about a dozen times. Ha! The poem is very reminiscent of the way GRRRM likes to mess with our perceptions, with his characters "narration" a sort of false reality, to themselves, and therefore to us. Does the poem indicate that while I took the left road, in later years, I will tell everyone I took the right road? That is how I read it, after many times over. Two paths, equally lovely, but I choose one and lived it, but will pretend I took the other, and people will think I lived that? Is that in a way for the author to have experienced both roads, even though he tells us that if you take one road, you never get the chance to take the other?
The speaker stands in the woods, considering a fork in the road. Both ways are equally worn and equally overlaid with un-trodden leaves. The speaker chooses one, telling himself that he will take the other another day. Yet he knows it is unlikely that he will have the opportunity to do so. And he admits that someday in the future he will recreate the scene with a slight twist: He will claim that he took the less-traveled road.
This seems to be the interpretation that you follow too!
So basically, I was faced with a decision, and I chose one path but in hind sight, I will tell the story of the other path. In a way, living both paths while only taking one.
So, considering that ASOIAF is a story of a path taken, are we to assume this is the path that was actually taken, or since it is a story we are being told, then are we to interpret that the words are not about the actual path that was walked on, but the story of what might have been. Meaning nothing of what were are actually reading happened, but it's the story of what if?
I don't know if I would admire GRRM for that, or want to kick him in the balls!
If this is a false reality (much like people have speculated that the whole story could be a coma dream of Bran's or a fever dream of Ned's) where is the fork in the road? Is it Ned deciding to lie and admit to treason, or not? Is it Ned deciding to kill Lady or not? Is it Bran's fall? Is it when Jaime decides to push Bran or not? Is the fork in the road a choice faced for Ned, when he decides to go to Kings Landing or stay in the north, "his place"? Is it even further back, when Eddard and his sons stood on a road amidst the snowbanks and decided to claim the direwolf pups or kill them? The major decision that Jon helped Ned make, one of my favorite scenes in the story. Does the decision/fork in the road not even have to do with this generation but the generation before? Back to Ned's decision at the toj (whatever the heck happened), or the Harrenhal tourney or even further. Taking the east road versus the west, north versus the south? Torrhen bending the knee to Aegon, or choosing to fight the dragons there with his bastard brothers weirwood arrows! Mind boggling! So many cross roads in our story!
David Haglund, a senior editor for Slate, has speculated that Frost may have deliberately misled his readers. Various quotes from Frost's correspondences suggest that he knew people would misunderstand the meaning — and their confusion even amused him.
The interpretation here is that not only did Frost write a vague story, but he deliberately enjoyed thinking he was misleading people, and actively enjoyed the misdirection. Sound like GRRM much?
So, what does that mean for our story? I have no idea! But it makes me even less trustworthy of the whole story than I felt before. However, whether the story actually is the tale of the road the that was really taken or just a tale about the road that wasn't taken but could have been, I guess it is the only story we have, and therefore in a way, it is the only reality we have, whether it's real or not! (this sounds like a dog chasing it's tail in a circle, geesh)
Therefore, it doesn't matter what path we take, because we only have the one story about it. But ... that really shines a light to me on the echoes and inversions and parallel's that we see in the story and why they might be there.
Or maybe it means that no matter what path you take, things ultimately end up the same, as they were meant to be or need to be!
Again, great OP lynn and thanks to shymaid for the link over here. It has given me some deep thought, and surprisingly, my head doesn't even hurt too bad!
I hope to try to again address some of the comments (and not lose them into the matrix) when I have more time!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.