Wraith , my headcanon is that Jon Arryn planned the rebellion from the moment Steffon died but the seeds were started during the Nine Penny War when they realized why are we bowing to the dragonless Dragons
Ok I can see that. He wouldn't be the High Lord to ask that question.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
canitryto ooooh I never thought NPK would be start of Arryn rebellion, but I agree Steffon's death started things to happen. But I am also here to search for the madlad / madlass who proposed the idea that Benjen and Ned switched places because I am starting to think there is a possibility for that. Gee I need TWOW
But I am also here to search for the madlad / madlass who proposed the idea that Benjen and Ned switched places because I am starting to think there is a possibility for that. Gee I need TWOW
I don't think I have ever come across this idea before. Do you mean after Robert's Rebellion or before? Like Ned sought the Night's Watch and Benjen is acting as Lord of Winterfell? It's hard for me to imagine such a thing considering Ned's personal POV but I would be interested in reading such thoughts if you can find something.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
canitryto ooooh I never thought NPK would be start of Arryn rebellion, but I agree Steffon's death started things to happen. But I am also here to search for the madlad / madlass who proposed the idea that Benjen and Ned switched places because I am starting to think there is a possibility for that. Gee I need TWOW
Why would Benjen and Ned switch places? When and for what purpose?
I don't think I have ever come across this idea before. Do you mean after Robert's Rebellion or before? Like Ned sought the Night's Watch and Benjen is acting as Lord of Winterfell? It's hard for me to imagine such a thing considering Ned's personal POV but I would be interested in reading such thoughts if you can find something.
Indeed. I'd gladly read this.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
I do not think it was a theory but rather a post on heresy threads, problem is I don't remember which one. Now I do think this is a crack theory at most and drunk rumbling at worst. But I do acknowledge Ned's own POV is a problem.
Ned and Benjen would switch places before Catelyn's wedding to "Ned". And they would switch places because of Jon's parentage and Ned/Ashara situation.
- Ned and Ashara are rumored to be a thing by Edric Dayne, Cersei and Catelyn. Though Cersei and Catelyn seem to think Jon is Ned and Ashara's son, Edric Dayne do not acknowledge Ashara having any child. - Ned himself thinks Jon is a product of lust. - Benjen talks about holding his own son in his arms while visiting Winterfell. But it's more wishful and something like he didn't experience, which would make sense with the stillborn rumors. - Jon is the child of North, and a Stark, and his Starkness is important. With Ned's conclusion about Lannister kids being products of incest, sibling incest too, rather than Cersei cheating with other men, and Ned equation of himself and Cersei makes sense if he had incest relationship and worried people may found out. - Close relationship between Benjen and Lyanna, rather than Lyanna calling Ned, dear, which is also used by Viserys, and Lannister siblings among themselves. - Benjen falling into the pool besides the Weirwood tree and the comet's apperence after Ned's execution? - Bran thinking he looks like young Benjen at similar ages.
I am really rambling but I do think Ned never thinking about Ashara or their stillborn child, while Benjen seem to think about feeling of a child in his arms. Ned's obvious connection to incest and Jon being a child of Winterfell made me think if Ned and Benjen switching is possible. That would explain why "Benjen" wears such expensive and lordly clothes and plays a part in Jon being sent to the Wall?
I do not think it was a theory but rather a post on heresy threads, problem is I don't remember which one. Now I do think this is a crack theory at most and drunk rumbling at worst. But I do acknowledge Ned's own POV is a problem.
Ned and Benjen would switch places before Catelyn's wedding to "Ned". And they would switch places because of Jon's parentage and Ned/Ashara situation.
- Ned and Ashara are rumored to be a thing by Edric Dayne, Cersei and Catelyn. Though Cersei and Catelyn seem to think Jon is Ned and Ashara's son, Edric Dayne do not acknowledge Ashara having any child. - Ned himself thinks Jon is a product of lust. - Benjen talks about holding his own son in his arms while visiting Winterfell. But it's more wishful and something like he didn't experience, which would make sense with the stillborn rumors. - Jon is the child of North, and a Stark, and his Starkness is important. With Ned's conclusion about Lannister kids being products of incest, sibling incest too, rather than Cersei cheating with other men, and Ned equation of himself and Cersei makes sense if he had incest relationship and worried people may found out. - Close relationship between Benjen and Lyanna, rather than Lyanna calling Ned, dear, which is also used by Viserys, and Lannister siblings among themselves. - Benjen falling into the pool besides the Weirwood tree and the comet's apperence after Ned's execution? - Bran thinking he looks like young Benjen at similar ages.
I am really rambling but I do think Ned never thinking about Ashara or their stillborn child, while Benjen seem to think about feeling of a child in his arms. Ned's obvious connection to incest and Jon being a child of Winterfell made me think if Ned and Benjen switching is possible. That would explain why "Benjen" wears such expensive and lordly clothes and plays a part in Jon being sent to the Wall?
Sounds like it might have popped up in one of the x+y=z parentage threads from several years ago. If it was a comment, perhaps the search engine would turn something up?
Benjen's age is hard to pinpoint. We don't get much of a description of him to let us know if he has any grey hair or not. We know that Eddard is greying in his beard. Lyanna is between them in age, but how much younger Benjen is is pretty much a guess. I have even seen the idea batted around that Benjen and Lyanna could be twins, but that would be odd to me, without any sort of mention. So, could teenager's with one at least 4 years younger, be switched and not one person would question it. Also, people in the north would have to know what Benjen looked like, after all he was raised in Winterfell. Ned was not, but GRRM makes it sound like he came back for visits. I am just trying to figure out how such a switch would not have been noted by someone in the north. Or why Jon Arryn would go along with such a switch, because after all, he raised Ned for years and would know who is who. And Eddard thinks of Jon Arryn. Also, Robert know's Ned and I can't see how he would be part of this kind of switch. I doubt it happened, but I would still like to read the post if you can manage to find it.
Here are just a few thoughts on the points you brought up:
Benjen's comments to Jon about holding a son in his arms could be wishful because he never had a son, stillborn or alive, and his actual claim is that Nights Watch members will ever father son's, but that probably not accurate. However, I will not be surprised if Ben doesn't have a bastard child or two around, and I think they are girls. I have actually wondered if Jeyne Poole might not be a child of Benjen's. She looks enough like a Stark to pass for Arya, but it's highly tinfoil, I know.
Benjen is interesting. I don't see why he would not wear nice clothing to a feast for a king. He wears velvet, but so does Joffrey. Jaime wears satin. I do think it is odd that GRRM did give us more description for Benjen's clothing than the rest of the Stark's in this scene, but this chapter also completely forgets that Bran exists or was at the feast as well, so GRRM left us some oddities to deal with. As to a silver chain and silver belt buckle, I don't know if that's really that flashy. Later in our story, Ned wears silk and velvet as well, and a silver belt. Even Ser Hugh of the Vale get's buried in his best velvet tunic, so not even the richest men at court can still dress well.
One thing that has always stood out to me about Benjen's appearance is that I don't think he looks that much like Brandon and Ned. We are never told he has the long Stark face. Brandon and Eddard had grey eyes while Benjen has laughing blue-grey eyes. And we never get a description of Benjen's hair color or if he even has a beard. When Bran, who has red-brown "Tully" hair mistakes himself for the boy at the pool, it makes me question if that boy didn't also have reddish hair. If that's Benjen in the pool after fighting with Lyanna, then Benjen had red-brown hair, just like Bran does. Although, I'm not sold that's Benjen and Lyanna. I think it could be Rickard and Lyarra. Bran assumes they are siblings, but he could be wrong and they are cousins.
If there was a relationship between Ned and Ashara and some kind of marriage, I don't see why to save himself from polygamy or making all the children of his second marriage bastards, why he would not just step down from being Lord of Winterfell, take the black, and let Benjen become Lord of Winterfell and marry Cat Tully.
I do think there are some hints about Starkcest as the key to Jon's parentage, but I still am leaning toward Jon being a bastard, not a child produced by a marriage, not even a weirwood marriage. Of course, that's just a personal opinion, but there is no doubt that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I do not think it was a theory but rather a post on heresy threads, problem is I don't remember which one. Now I do think this is a crack theory at most and drunk rumbling at worst. But I do acknowledge Ned's own POV is a problem.
Ned and Benjen would switch places before Catelyn's wedding to "Ned". And they would switch places because of Jon's parentage and Ned/Ashara situation.
- Ned and Ashara are rumored to be a thing by Edric Dayne, Cersei and Catelyn. Though Cersei and Catelyn seem to think Jon is Ned and Ashara's son, Edric Dayne do not acknowledge Ashara having any child. - Ned himself thinks Jon is a product of lust. - Benjen talks about holding his own son in his arms while visiting Winterfell. But it's more wishful and something like he didn't experience, which would make sense with the stillborn rumors. - Jon is the child of North, and a Stark, and his Starkness is important. With Ned's conclusion about Lannister kids being products of incest, sibling incest too, rather than Cersei cheating with other men, and Ned equation of himself and Cersei makes sense if he had incest relationship and worried people may found out. - Close relationship between Benjen and Lyanna, rather than Lyanna calling Ned, dear, which is also used by Viserys, and Lannister siblings among themselves. - Benjen falling into the pool besides the Weirwood tree and the comet's apperence after Ned's execution? - Bran thinking he looks like young Benjen at similar ages.
I am really rambling but I do think Ned never thinking about Ashara or their stillborn child, while Benjen seem to think about feeling of a child in his arms. Ned's obvious connection to incest and Jon being a child of Winterfell made me think if Ned and Benjen switching is possible. That would explain why "Benjen" wears such expensive and lordly clothes and plays a part in Jon being sent to the Wall?
Sounds like it might have popped up in one of the x+y=z parentage threads from several years ago. If it was a comment, perhaps the search engine would turn something up?
Benjen's age is hard to pinpoint. We don't get much of a description of him to let us know if he has any grey hair or not. We know that Eddard is greying in his beard. Lyanna is between them in age, but how much younger Benjen is is pretty much a guess. I have even seen the idea batted around that Benjen and Lyanna could be twins, but that would be odd to me, without any sort of mention. So, could teenager's with one at least 4 years younger, be switched and not one person would question it. Also, people in the north would have to know what Benjen looked like, after all he was raised in Winterfell. Ned was not, but GRRM makes it sound like he came back for visits. I am just trying to figure out how such a switch would not have been noted by someone in the north. Or why Jon Arryn would go along with such a switch, because after all, he raised Ned for years and would know who is who. And Eddard thinks of Jon Arryn. Also, Robert know's Ned and I can't see how he would be part of this kind of switch. I doubt it happened, but I would still like to read the post if you can manage to find it.
Here are just a few thoughts on the points you brought up:
Benjen's comments to Jon about holding a son in his arms could be wishful because he never had a son, stillborn or alive, and his actual claim is that Nights Watch members will ever father son's, but that probably not accurate. However, I will not be surprised if Ben doesn't have a bastard child or two around, and I think they are girls. I have actually wondered if Jeyne Poole might not be a child of Benjen's. She looks enough like a Stark to pass for Arya, but it's highly tinfoil, I know.
Benjen is interesting. I don't see why he would not wear nice clothing to a feast for a king. He wears velvet, but so does Joffrey. Jaime wears satin. I do think it is odd that GRRM did give us more description for Benjen's clothing than the rest of the Stark's in this scene, but this chapter also completely forgets that Bran exists or was at the feast as well, so GRRM left us some oddities to deal with. As to a silver chain and silver belt buckle, I don't know if that's really that flashy. Later in our story, Ned wears silk and velvet as well, and a silver belt. Even Ser Hugh of the Vale get's buried in his best velvet tunic, so not even the richest men at court can still dress well.
One thing that has always stood out to me about Benjen's appearance is that I don't think he looks that much like Brandon and Ned. We are never told he has the long Stark face. Brandon and Eddard had grey eyes while Benjen has laughing blue-grey eyes. And we never get a description of Benjen's hair color or if he even has a beard. When Bran, who has red-brown "Tully" hair mistakes himself for the boy at the pool, it makes me question if that boy didn't also have reddish hair. If that's Benjen in the pool after fighting with Lyanna, then Benjen had red-brown hair, just like Bran does. Although, I'm not sold that's Benjen and Lyanna. I think it could be Rickard and Lyarra. Bran assumes they are siblings, but he could be wrong and they are cousins.
If there was a relationship between Ned and Ashara and some kind of marriage, I don't see why to save himself from polygamy or making all the children of his second marriage bastards, why he would not just step down from being Lord of Winterfell, take the black, and let Benjen become Lord of Winterfell and marry Cat Tully.
I do think there are some hints about Starkcest as the key to Jon's parentage, but I still am leaning toward Jon being a bastard, not a child produced by a marriage, not even a weirwood marriage. Of course, that's just a personal opinion, but there is no doubt that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard.
I also do not think Jon is true born because Ned says why Gods frown on bastards. I know there are problems with Ned/Benjen switch, but Blackfish over the top reaction of Ned marrying Catelyn when he seems to love his niece and the marriage being norm is suspicious. I will admit I always think of Bran Weirwood "siblings" as Benjen and Lyanna due to Arya resembling Lyanna. But even this resemblance is due to Ned's words.
Was it you who considered Benjen being a half siblings to Starks? Lyanna was fourteen at Harrenhall right? I would say it is possible for Benjen to be twelve? "Benjen" and Tywin are characters I doubt their parentages, and slowly Arya too, shocking I know, because her conceiving/birth? is during Balon's Rebellion and Sansa calls her changeling
But those are offtopic, + is it possible Lyanna died of greywater fever? Not childbirth, though even Robert suspects Jon is Lyanna's son.
I also do not think Jon is true born because Ned says why Gods frown on bastards. I know there are problems with Ned/Benjen switch, but Blackfish over the top reaction of Ned marrying Catelyn when he seems to love his niece and the marriage being norm is suspicious. I will admit I always think of Bran Weirwood "siblings" as Benjen and Lyanna due to Arya resembling Lyanna. But even this resemblance is due to Ned's words.
What is the Blackfish's over the top reaction to Ned marrying Catelyn? He did leave Riverrun at this time, but I think we might find out that Hoster had a marriage plan in place for the Blackfish that he flat refused. This was the final break with his brother.
As to those two children playing swords near the weirwood, it could be Benjen and Lyanna, and I will buy this if Benjen turns out to be red-brown haired. And yes, the girl looks like Arya, and that might make it Lyanna, but it could easily be a family member from another generation, too. Lyanna's looks are unusually vague in the story. It's like a hole. We are told by Ned that Arya is like Lyanna, but in what way?
"It has a name, does it?" Her father sighed. "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."
"Lyanna was beautiful," Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.
"She was," Eddard Stark agreed, "beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time." He lifted the sword, held it out between them. "Arya, what did you think to do with this … Needle? Who did you hope to skewer? Your sister? Septa Mordane? Do you know the first thing about sword fighting?" AGOT-Arya II
It seems like the first connection that Ned makes is the behaviors, wolf blood, wild and willful. That is the first connection between Arya and Lyanna. Then we get a "sometimes" thrown in there, so he is not "always" thinking of the two as similar. As an afterthought, he throws in the "you even look like her". Then Arya counters with the Lyanna was beautiful and Ned agree's. So far, Arya doesn't seem to be beautiful, although I think she is starting to grow into her beautiful swan stage. But how much of a resemblance does Arya share with Lyanna? So far, the text has been silent on Lyanna's hair and eye color. If it's no big deal and she has dark hair and grey eyes, then why not just say so. Why the silence? It's the same thingwith Benjen's lack of hair color mentioned, and him never being noted to have the long face of the Stark's. Benjen's face is described as "sharp-featured and gaunt as a mountain crag with a "hint of laughter" in his face. Not long faced and solemn, like Rickard and Ned and Brandon and Jon. Odd!
Was it you who considered Benjen being a half siblings to Starks? Lyanna was fourteen at Harrenhall right? I would say it is possible for Benjen to be twelve? "Benjen" and Tywin are characters I doubt their parentages, and slowly Arya too, shocking I know, because her conceiving/birth? is during Balon's Rebellion and Sansa calls her changeling
Yes, I wonder if he could have been a bastard, half-Stark who was legitimized. As to Benjen's possible age at Harrenhal, if he was 12 and we know that Ned was 18, then a six year age difference would be almost impossible for them to switch and have people find that believable.
As to Arya, I have speculated on this parentage reread that Arya might be a grumkin in the pile of Stark's. But if this is the case, I think she is Eddard's child, and not Cat's. As to when Arya was conceived, it's hard to say. She is nine at the start of the story, and the Greyjoy rebellion was nine years before. So she could have been born while Eddard was gone, but to be both born and conceived would be hard to pull off. If she is conceived while Ned is gone, he would know it. He isn't stupid, in spite of how he was manipulated. And there are no hints of Arya being born too early. We don't know how long the Greyjoy rebellion lasted and it's possible that Arya was already born before Eddard even left Winterfell.
It's also possible that it is Sansa who is the grumkin, because she is the one who mentions it, but never even thinks that she could be the odd one out, because she is so sure it has to be Arya. It would be ironic if it turned out to be Sansa who didn't belong, but she acts so much a dreamer and trusting, like Eddard does at times, I can't see how they are not father and daughter.
When I first suspected it could be Arya that was the grumkin, I thought it was because she was Lyanna's child, except that didn't fit with the whole toj/RLJ theory with Lyanna dying in her bed of blood at the end of the rebellion. I thought it was possible that she lived much longer than people suspect and didn't die until after she gave birth to Arya. But I was trying to fit it into RLJ and Prince Silver String was no doubt dead by this time, so who would be the baby daddy? Mance is always an option, but my guess was Ned. Still, I have since decided that Lyanna might have died even before the Battle of the Trident. I hope we get some answers on this someday, but part of me still holds onto the tinfoil that its possible Lyanna didn't die until later than most suspect.
As to Tywin, do you think he could have Targaryen blood?
But those are offtopic, + is it possible Lyanna died of greywater fever? Not childbirth, though even Robert suspects Jon is Lyanna's son.
I am not sure Robert did suspect that. He himself said that Ned couldn't lie at all, so why would he think Ned successfully lied about that?
As to fever, it's certainly a possibility that Lyanna died of greywater fever, but besides the fever hint, what hints do you see to what specific kind of fever she died from? I have always wondered if Greywater Fever and Greyscale/Grey Plague have something in common?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Ned and Benjen would switch places before Catelyn's wedding to "Ned". And they would switch places because of Jon's parentage and Ned/Ashara situation.
That doesn't make sense to me. Hoster would never accept anything less that the LP to marry to one of his precious daughters. Also the ages are likely too far apart and too many people know Benjen and Ned to pull this off.
I am really rambling but I do think Ned never thinking about Ashara or their stillborn child, while Benjen seem to think about feeling of a child in his arms. Ned's obvious connection to incest and Jon being a child of Winterfell made me think if Ned and Benjen switching is possible. That would explain why "Benjen" wears such expensive and lordly clothes and plays a part in Jon being sent to the Wall?
Benjen has nice clothes 1) He is coming to the King's Feast 2) He is the brother of the Lord of the North and likely had nice clothes that he brought to the order.
Sounds like it might have popped up in one of the x+y=z parentage threads from several years ago. If it was a comment, perhaps the search engine would turn something up?
I also do not think Jon is true born because Ned says why Gods frown on bastards. I know there are problems with Ned/Benjen switch, but Blackfish over the top reaction of Ned marrying Catelyn when he seems to love his niece and the marriage being norm is suspicious. I will admit I always think of Bran Weirwood "siblings" as Benjen and Lyanna due to Arya resembling Lyanna. But even this resemblance is due to Ned's words.
I have always been a fan of the Ned+Ashara= Jon theory. I have accepted RLJ now since its show canon and likely the best we are going to get at this rate.
I think that Ned and Ashara were married under First Men tradition. Legal in the North but not in the South. Ergo Hoster thought nothing of it and he was free to pressure Ned to marry Cat in the Faith of the Seven. This would piss off Blackfish
Wraith and stdaga welp Ned/Benjen switch will stay as crackpot for now - but I do not believe Jon is Ashara's child even if he is Ned's son, I believe Allyria "Dayne" is Ashara's daughter instead.
As for the grumpkin of Stark family, I think Sansa is like her siblings. She likes knights, Robb, and Jon uses their new while training and Bran wanting to be a knight and meet Barristan. She just accept she is a female and can't fight with swords, Arya is wilder and challenges gender norms. Both seem to be Starks and it's true Ned would realize if Arya was conceived when he was away. Btw I admit Arya is not Lyanna's twin in looks because Lyanna's hair and eye color is never given in text.
As for Tywin, I started to suspect his parentage because his uncle's womanizer description and how he is described as tall with long legs when Kevan and old Genna are like their father in looks? Even Gerion, but I am affected by the Gerion/Illyrio theories I read.
I think that Ned and Ashara were married under First Men tradition. Legal in the North but not in the South. Ergo Hoster thought nothing of it and he was free to pressure Ned to marry Cat in the Faith of the Seven. This would piss off Blackfish
Well, the Blackfish doesn't follow the old gods, so why would that piss him off? Except he is just generally pissed off at everyone most of the time. I never thought there was a distinction between marriage ceremonies. Both are seen as legal forms of marriage, I would think. Or the majority of the wedding's in the north would not be accepted in the south, hence any children of them would be bastards. And we certainly don't get that vibe in the story.
And Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard who was sired because of lust, so that doesn't fit a marriage. Certainly marriages can be performed because of lust (hello, Robb stark) but a bastard is still a child born outside of a marriage. If it's a secret marriage that lead to Jon's birth, then Ned would not have been one of the parties, based on the bastard logic.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
welp Ned/Benjen switch will stay as crackpot for now - but I do not believe Jon is Ashara's child even if he is Ned's son, I believe Allyria "Dayne" is Ashara's daughter instead.
It never hurts to keep your eyes out for clues, although I find their (Ned/Benjen) age difference to be hard to ignore. As to Ashara being Jon's mother, I doubt it, also. Mostly because it's set up early in Game to slap us in the face with that option. TOO OBVIOUS!!! However, Jon does have some odd star imagery as well as "dawn" imagery, which could tie to the Dayne's. Arthur + Lyanna is also an option worth considering. Sometimes I think the Dayne's must be involved in all our great mysteries. Sometimes I think they are a great big red herring that is meant to distract us, and does, quite successfully.
However, if Dawn is supposed to belong to the Stark's but somehow the Dayne's ended up with it, which I think is a viable option, then Jon's hints that lead to Dawn make sense. There is something about how how the sword is "alive with light" when Eddard looks upon it that almost makes me think the sword was attempting to alert Ned to something. I think Ned could have been meant to wield it, but he gave it back to the Dayne's and therefore, would the sword recognize that as a rejection? That imagery of a "alive with light" sword and a sad looking Arthur Dayne makes me think that SAD recognized his time was up!
As for the grumpkin of Stark family, I think Sansa is like her siblings. She likes knights, Robb, and Jon uses their new while training and Bran wanting to be a knight and meet Barristan. She just accept she is a female and can't fight with swords, Arya is wilder and challenges gender norms. Both seem to be Starks and it's true Ned would realize if Arya was conceived when he was away. Btw I admit Arya is not Lyanna's twin in looks because Lyanna's hair and eye color is never given in text.
They are all alike in some ways. Bran and Sansa dream of knights. Rickon and Arya are wild little wolves. Robb falls somewhere in between, and it's hard to look too deeply into him based on his lack of POV, but I never get the impression that he favored the imagery of a southron knight over a northern warrior.
I tend to lean toward all six of the Stark's raised at Winterfell as being Ned's bio-children based on them all being gifted with direwolves. Jon had to earn his with his sacrifice, but he get's the most unusual wolf of all, based on his actions. IF Arya is a half-sibling, my tinfoil (and I admit this is far fetched) is that Arya was a bastard of Ned's that replaced a dead child of Ned and Cat's, probably with Luwin's help. There is something off about Lady Dustin's hatred of Ned. If it's true, her reasoning doesn't really feel right to me, all that nonsense about her husbands bones. But if she and Ned had a child (I said this was far fetched) then Ned took that child, her anger toward him fit's the same kind of anger that Gilly seems to feel for Jon Snow. A mother who's child was taken from her. And Barbrey Dustin shows quite a bit of interest in fArya/Jeyne, housing her before the wedding and keeping an eye on her after the wedding. She might not recognize her own child, but she might also think Arya is possibly her child. My previous thought was that Lyanna could be Arya's mother, but that was when I still thought that Lyanna lived years longer than most people suspect. I find that unlikely now.
As for Tywin, I started to suspect his parentage because his uncle's womanizer description and how he is described as tall with long legs when Kevan and old Genna are like their father in looks? Even Gerion, but I am affected by the Gerion/Illyrio theories I read.
I have to admit I have not give Tywin's physical description much thought (except those muttonchop sideburns), let alone comparing him to his siblings. In his behavior, he reminds me much more of his mother Jeyne Marbrand than he does Tytos Lannister. The vengeance aspect of Tywin reminds me of how Jeyne got rid of Ellyn Reyne Tarbeck. This is the kind of behavior that I see in Genna Lannister Frey as well. Quick action and lack of forgiveness yet allowing an odd tolerance for the stupidity of their spouse.
However, it's fun to toy with the idea that Tywin could be a cuckoo in the nest, mostly because it would just piss him off so much! There is nothing in the text that shuts down this idea as far as I can see, and his children could get the Lannister looks from their mother.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Well, the Blackfish doesn't follow the old gods, so why would that piss him off? Except he is just generally pissed off at everyone most of the time. I never thought there was a distinction between marriage ceremonies. Both are seen as legal forms of marriage, I would think. Or the majority of the wedding's in the north would not be accepted in the south, hence any children of them would be bastards. And we certainly don't get that vibe in the story.
Blackfish has some complex motivations on marriage, especially his refusal to marry that we don't really know about. Still watching your brother force another man to leave his marriage to marry your niece for a political match could definately rub some people the wrong way. Really scummy thing to do but Hoster has his ambitions. Makes me think this is where Baelish picked it up.
And Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard who was sired because of lust, so that doesn't fit a marriage. Certainly marriages can be performed because of lust (hello, Robb stark) but a bastard is still a child born outside of a marriage. If it's a secret marriage that lead to Jon's birth, then Ned would not have been one of the parties, based on the bastard logic.
Ah but Jon could have been created by lust and loss. Much like Robb and the Westerling girl. Then Ned/Robb does the honorable thing and marry the girl to preserve their honor at the cost of their own.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!