Post by Direwolf Blitzer on May 14, 2019 13:01:56 GMT
Also, I've now been exposed to the leaks. Exposed myself to the leaks. Been leaked upon. I don't feel too bad about it, since I think we all knew Jon was going to plunge his Lightbringer into her.
Why is Jon going back to the wall? No one is left on the wall. Also, it's broken. Also, there's nothing to guard against since Arya destroyed evil forever. I can imagine Martin have some mythical justification for it, but in show-world it's rather unsatisfying.
Also, I've now been exposed to the leaks. Exposed myself to the leaks. Been leaked upon. I don't feel too bad about it, since I think we all knew Jon was going to plunge his Lightbringer into her.
Well, would be interesting if they didn't drop lightbringer off of a cliff. They've dropped so much stuff, the beach under the cliff is really polluted. Tiem for environmental responsibility.
Why is Jon going back to the wall? No one is left on the wall. Also, it's broken. Also, there's nothing to guard against since Arya destroyed evil forever. I can imagine Martin have some mythical justification for it, but in show-world it's rather unsatisfying.
There's a possible reason in the spoiler above.
If you don't mind re-engaging in the leaks.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Why is Jon going back to the wall? No one is left on the wall. Also, it's broken. Also, there's nothing to guard against since Arya destroyed evil forever. I can imagine Martin have some mythical justification for it, but in show-world it's rather unsatisfying.
There's a possible reason in the spoiler above.
If you don't mind re-engaging in the leaks.
I've rewatched season 2, when Jon's escort Yrgritt in the wild north. And Ygritt sent us plenty of reason why Jon could stay over there. It could make sense then. Jon's true nature is to range in the wilderness. From a storytelling point of view, I don't see the purpose of re-opening the NK arc whereas it has already reached its climax. The NK's death was a fucking Deus ex Machina but it's still an ending. And a satisfying one if we look at their reaction
I've rewatched season 2, when Jon's escort Yrgritt in the wild north. And Ygritt sent us plenty of reason why Jon could stay over there. It could make sense then. Jon's true nature is to range in the wilderness.
Yes--and they've hit it heard in the books--that he's "of the North" and has no patience for "bloody southron fools."
From a storytelling point of view, I don't see the purpose of re-opening the NK arc whereas it has already reached its climax. The NK's death was a fucking Deus ex Machina but it's still an ending. And a satisfying one if we look at their reaction
Maybe--but I've been coming back to "A Dream of Spring"--why "dream?" Reminds me of the ending of Bitterblooms, where Shawn lies next to the ship, dreaming. It doesn't end with fulfillment, only dreams.
I'm now wondering if the books have set us up for no "ending"--if this is a cycle that will repeat and repeat because the land has been too violated.
If so, the NW needs to prepare. The stories need to be written on something other than perishable parchment. And someone needs to clone Nan.
And thus, Jon's going north would be necessary. . . a dream that maybe, someday, they will figure out how to end Winter. But still just a dream.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Post by whitewolfstark on May 14, 2019 20:03:02 GMT
So yeah, it's not that Bran becomes King, but the Collective Consciousness that embodies all the Children of the Forest AND whatever Human entities it absorbed (including Bran) plays Ice (Jon) and Fire (Dany) off of one another to its own benefit, leaving the Children of the Forest triumphant at last in the War Against Man (long about way), returning to "ruling" Westeros and forcing all the men in Westeros to their will?
Now that's something I see GRRM writing. You have a reason for why "Bran" insisted on bringing up the division between Dany & Jon--forcing both of them out of the way so that the Children of the Forest's Collective Consciousness wins. I don't see D&D's way of getting to it as how we get there, but that ending point makes sense from my Martin-scanner. And if that's the actual ending point that GRRM is working towards, I'd be satisfied as it's in line with his previous work.
It also is going to piss A LOT of people off. It's like revealing the Elves manipulated all the wizards and men to fight one another so that they could rule in the end, to put it in LOTR terms.
So yeah, it's not that Bran becomes King, but the Collective Consciousness that embodies all the Children of the Forest AND whatever Human entities it absorbed (including Bran) plays Ice (Jon) and Fire (Dany) off of one another to its own benefit, leaving the Children of the Forest triumphant at last in the War Against Man (long about way), returning to "ruling" Westeros and forcing all the men in Westeros to their will?
Now that's something I see GRRM writing. You have a reason for why "Bran" insisted on bringing up the division between Dany & Jon--forcing both of them out of the way so that the Children of the Forest's Collective Consciousness wins. I don't see D&D's way of getting to it as how we get there, but that ending point makes sense from my Martin-scanner. And if that's the actual ending point that GRRM is working towards, I'd be satisfied as it's in line with his previous work.
It also is going to piss A LOT of people off. It's like revealing the Elves manipulated all the wizards and men to fight one another so that they could rule in the end, to put it in LOTR terms.
Amen--but as Maester Sam and you both note--it really could work.
If so, Bran got rid of the NK, a BIG chunk of the Dothraki and Unsullied, "cleansed" King's Landing, and set up the last dragon to be executed/assassinated.
If all that crazy were true, would fit with Bloodraven--and voice 's take on Bloodraven--the clever, ruthless, self-sacrificing protector of the realm.
It fits with my brainchild on the Song of Amergin, too--people and the land speaking/singing together is the only way to bring peace and unity.
And yes--it could piss a lot of people off.
But I might just love it!
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
So yeah, it's not that Bran becomes King, but the Collective Consciousness that embodies all the Children of the Forest AND whatever Human entities it absorbed (including Bran) plays Ice (Jon) and Fire (Dany) off of one another to its own benefit, leaving the Children of the Forest triumphant at last in the War Against Man (long about way), returning to "ruling" Westeros and forcing all the men in Westeros to their will?
Now that's something I see GRRM writing. You have a reason for why "Bran" insisted on bringing up the division between Dany & Jon--forcing both of them out of the way so that the Children of the Forest's Collective Consciousness wins. I don't see D&D's way of getting to it as how we get there, but that ending point makes sense from my Martin-scanner. And if that's the actual ending point that GRRM is working towards, I'd be satisfied as it's in line with his previous work.
It also is going to piss A LOT of people off. It's like revealing the Elves manipulated all the wizards and men to fight one another so that they could rule in the end, to put it in LOTR terms.
Amen--but as Maester Sam and you both note--it really could work.
If so, Bran got rid of the NK, a BIG chunk of the Dothraki and Unsullied, "cleansed" King's Landing, and set up the last dragon to be executed/assassinated.
If all that crazy were true, would fit with Bloodraven--and voice 's take on Bloodraven--the clever, ruthless, self-sacrificing protector of the realm.
It fits with my brainchild on the Song of Amergin, too--people and the land speaking/singing together is the only way to bring peace and unity.
And yes--it could piss a lot of people off.
But I might just love it!
Lol that might explain the disappointed comments from the cast too.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Bran tells everyone the NK isn't done. Or the threat's not gone. Or something to that effect.
And that might be why Jon goes back north.
I hope he realizes that the only NW order for the next 500 years will be the Builders. Maybe a cook or two. But that's it. Fixing the giant gaping hole in the Wall would have to be the #1 priority. So in reality, Jon will spend the rest of his life shoveling snow. Ha. Snow. Get it? Foreshadowing, hahaha.
So yeah, it's not that Bran becomes King, but the Collective Consciousness that embodies all the Children of the Forest AND whatever Human entities it absorbed (including Bran) plays Ice (Jon) and Fire (Dany) off of one another to its own benefit, leaving the Children of the Forest triumphant at last in the War Against Man (long about way), returning to "ruling" Westeros and forcing all the men in Westeros to their will?
I think this is just going to be too much for show watchers. I'm amazed D&D thought that could work, without setting it up properly. Everyone's been mystified for years about what Bran's role is and why he is even still around, he's just been the weirdo in the wheelchair forever. Then in episode 2 we learn that the Great War is actually all about him, and they must save him to save humanity. SERIOUSLY? Bran is the most important person on the planet all of a sudden? Tens of thousands must die to protect him? WTF??? And I was surprised they went for it. I thought they would at least discuss the option of handing him over. They had all lived without the memories held by the 3ER all this time and never missed them. Why do they need him all of a sudden? Especially if he won't share any of his knowledge??
So I suppose looking back, he easily manipulated them into sacrificing their men for him by simply lying to them. They all assumed (as did the viewer) that he was on their side and being honest. Shame on us. We should have used Littlefinger's advice: for every person, think of their worst possible motivation for their actions... Sorry Lord Baelish (RIP), we failed you. But to be fair, Bran/CC wanting the IT seemed a bit far fetched. He actually said he doesn't "want" anymore. LIAR. And we believed him. Shame.
The bigger problem is that they really didn't emphasize the COTF at all in the show. The NK creation scene was SO underwhelming, I was seriously shocked. I thought this reveal would be a HUGE moment! But no. And then barely 2 sentences of explanation from Leaf about why they made him. That was it. The one and only mention of the war between men and COTF. So having the COTF popping back up in the form of a collective consciousness that inhabits Bran's body in the very last episode, having manipulated everything the whole time, is going to be hard to swallow for most people. At least that's my prediction. Poor D&D. They actually tried to stay true to the story in this, but they will be flayed alive by the fandom.
That being said, I LOVE LOVE LOVE this ending for the books!! It fits GRRM perfectly, and it's entirely non-tropey which is also impressive. GRRM will set it up properly of course, and it will be amazing. In the meantime, it's an excellent cornerstone for our theories moving forward. It'll be so helpful to have an endpoint to work toward!
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Just came upon an interesting foreshadowing example, from The Forsaken chapter. Here is a Euron quote:
"The bleeding star bespoke the end" he said to Aeron. "These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits."
Here is Wikipedia's description of a charnel house:
A charnel house is a vault or building where human skeletal remains are stored. They are often built near churches for depositing bones that are unearthed while digging graves. The term can also be used more generally as a description of a place filled with death and destruction.
If you look up images, these places are literally full of bones, usually no longer arranged as full skeletons. In some cases, the bones are arranged neatly along the walls like in the House of Black and White, while in other cases they are scattered about randomly like in the Cave of Skulls.
Euron is clearly misinterpreting this prophecy as applying to him, when in fact it is already foreshadowing the very end of the story. It also adds an interesting layer of complexity beyond the show ending, suggesting Bran will not only be a ruler but viewed as a god.
Last Edit: May 18, 2019 13:51:18 GMT by Maester Sam
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Just came upon an interesting foreshadowing example, from The Forsaken chapter. Here is a Euron quote:
"The bleeding star bespoke the end" he said to Aeron. "These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits."
Here is Wikipedia's description of a charnel house:
A charnel house is a vault or building where human skeletal remains are stored. They are often built near churches for depositing bones that are unearthed while digging graves. The term can also be used more generally as a description of a place filled with death and destruction.
If you look up images, these places are literally full of bones, usually no longer arranged as full skeletons. In some cases, the bones are arranged neatly along the walls like in the House of Black and White, while in other cases they are scattered about randomly like in the Cave of Skulls.
Euron is clearly misinterpreting this prophecy as applying to him, when in fact it is already foreshadowing the very end of the story. It also adds an interesting layer of complexity beyond the show ending, suggesting Bran will not only be a ruler but viewed as a god.
love all of this.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Why not make the subscription a surprise pressie to him?
...Tonight I’m going to get HBO Go and ask them how I can pay to get permissions to use it in the EU. See what happens.
Here would be no problem, but my Italian isn’t advanced enough to solve this problem just yet. My aunt won’t be home this summer to help me. Just me and my uncle, The Last Etruscan 😉
At the end of the day, how did that situation play out?
...Tonight I’m going to get HBO Go and ask them how I can pay to get permissions to use it in the EU. See what happens.
Here would be no problem, but my Italian isn’t advanced enough to solve this problem just yet. My aunt won’t be home this summer to help me. Just me and my uncle, The Last Etruscan 😉
At the end of the day, how did that situation play out?
I just ended up reading the spoilers and I’ll watch it when I return home.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I just ended up reading the spoilers and I’ll watch it when I return home.
Will the EU let you access HBO Now?
No, I can’t use hbo now or hbo go. I am fine, I never watch tv anymore to be honest
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones