The thing is why did she want to be in the Winterfell crypts when only the King's and Lord's of Winterfell were commited to the crypts and she was neither.
The Kings and Lords had statues, but I'm not sure it was only they who were committed to the crypts.
Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Arya, GOT
But it still leaves the question about the statue. And why was it so important to her? I have asked myself whether she and Brandon had something in common with the old Kings that called for a statue. "He loved her so much" doesn't seem like the reason. Ned isn't the sentimental type.
The thing is why did she want to be in the Winterfell crypts when only the King's and Lord's of Winterfell were commited to the crypts and she was neither.
I think that only the Kings and Lords are supposed to get statues, but I don't think there is any reason to think that people of Stark blood cannot or are not buried in the crypts. In Ned's thoughts, he looks forward into the darkness of the crypts and knows there are places there for him and his children.
Ned stopped at last and lifted the oil lantern. The crypt continued on into darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed; black holes waiting for their dead, waiting for him and his children. Ned did not like to think on that. AGOT-Eddard I
Certainly, it can't be expected that all of Ned's children will rule Winterfell, so this must be a burial place for all Starks. But not Catelyn. No place for her! It's an interesting omission! So, Stark's by blood are welcome in the crypts, I think.
I remember discussing this on a thread with voice when I first joined this board, but I am not sure what thread it was!
I have asked myself whether she and Brandon had something in common with the old Kings that called for a statue. "He loved her so much" doesn't seem like the reason. Ned isn't the sentimental type.
Did Lyanna ask for a statue or just to be buried in the crypts? I really don't know. If she asked for a statue, did she ask for a statue for Brandon, too? We don't know that either. If she didn't ask for a statue for herself or Brandon, then why the heck did Ned order them to have statues? So many possibilities.
I wonder if it has something to do with a type of after-life that Stark's are allowed in the crypts. Or the people with statues are waiting for a rebirth of a sort? I think it all comes back to Ned's thoughts on how the kings without swords might be free to roam the castle, those Stark's of old are also noted to be vengeful in Ned's thoughts. This has a hint of the flavor of an Old Nan story, and while I don't know that for certain, I pay attention to things that Old Nan says, or might have said to the many generations of of children she helped raise.
If Lyanna felt like she was due vengeance for a wrong in her life, and she believed that she might be granted a sort of vengeful afterlife with a statue in the crypts, maybe that is why she was granted a statue and not just a burial spot? This is complete guessing on my part, nothing to back it up!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Me as well. I am all freeflow with my discussions, so I am really never sure what thread I might have been rattling on about, or even if it applies to the OP.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
i still think the whitewalkers are a fabrication of the POVs ....
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Did Lyanna ask for a statue or just to be buried in the crypts? I really don't know. If she asked for a statue, did she ask for a statue for Brandon, too? We don't know that either. If she didn't ask for a statue for herself or Brandon, then why the heck did Ned order them to have statues? So many possibilities.
If she did ask for one, that still leaves the question: Why? Why would she want one? Why would she think it would make any sense to make one for her?
I think it all comes back to Ned's thoughts on how the kings without swords might be free to roam the castle, those Stark's of old are also noted to be vengeful in Ned's thoughts. This has a hint of the flavor of an Old Nan story, and while I don't know that for certain,
I agree about the vengeful spirits comment. There must be a relationship here. But plenty of non-lord Starks must have died with a strong desire for revenge. They didn't get statues. Lyanna and Brandon have done something (or something has happened to them) that ties them to the old kings.
I think that only the Kings and Lords are supposed to get statues, but I don't think there is any reason to think that people of Stark blood cannot or are not buried in the crypts. In Ned's thoughts, he looks forward into the darkness of the crypts and knows there are places there for him and his children.
Good point about the statues not the whole crypt, I get things messed up sometimes. Still the point stands why does she have a statue. Also what if all the statues were Weeping Angels (anyone a Dr. Who fan)
I agree about the vengeful spirits comment. There must be a relationship here. But plenty of non-lord Starks must have died with a strong desire for revenge. They didn't get statues. Lyanna and Brandon have done something (or something has happened to them) that ties them to the old kings.
Maybe Brandon and Lyanna did nothing special, and Bran is correct when he says that Ned loved them so much, that he defied tradition. Maybe it was Ned who wanted their likeness in the crypts for him to visit? If Ned did something that ultimately caused the death of his father and siblings, could this be his form of apology. Eternal life in the crypts? This might be why Ned seems to think that the statues look at him in disapproval. Or because Ned defied convention and tradition for his own benefit? I doubt this is the case, but maybe ...
Good point about the statues not the whole crypt, I get things messed up sometimes. Still the point stands why does she have a statue. Also what if all the statues were Weeping Angels (anyone a Dr. Who fan)
I had to go back and look into the text to be sure, about the statues and direwolves and swords. It's so much to remember!
As to these Weeping Angels, this is a new concept for me. I had to rely on google to help me out.
So, that is very creepy! I hope the kings of winter don't do things like this.
However, as I was doing some reading about these Weeping Angels, which sound rather terrifying, some aspects of them do sound like the statues in the crypts. Mostly the appearing to move in the shadows is what sounds familiar but other things are interesting. Placing their victims back in another time as a form of death, and the ability to age as statues but regenerate is intriguing. Can regenerate if they are "fed".
So, do the souls of the Stark's with statues live on in the carved images? Do the stone direwolves? Can they reanimate if they are fed? What would they feed on? Does light animate them? Is that a source of energy? It seems like the torch light moving is what makes them appear to move, but what if light does cause them to move? If the statues in the crypts were to see the light of day, what might happen?
I am not sure that this is something that influenced GRRM but it's a really intriguing concept, and rather terrifying. I don't know Dr Who lore but I wonder how long this idea of Weeping Angels has existed.
i still think the whitewalkers are a fabrication of the POVs ....
How would this work? That a bunch of separate people see the same image? It's interesting that it might not be real, but then, what does Bran see in the Lands of Always Winter if it's not these things, or something worse, that is driving the Other's south?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Or because Ned defied convention and tradition for his own benefit?
Maybe he needs them, not for his benefit but for some future purpose. Maybe for Jon's benefit. Maybe it isn't just Jon's mother calling him from the crypts, voice, maybe it's his parents. Maybe they are just there enstatued to draw Jon. I'm just rambling stream of consciousness stuff now. But I am convinced that there is a reason that we're missing. Or maybe the statues are simply to preserve the likenesses or some sort of message for someone to find. Maybe it isn't a harp or sword that Jon needs to find, maybe it's a resemblance
Also what if all the statues were Weeping Angels (anyone a Dr. Who fan)
I love the image. I am definitely open to them coming to life in some sense. I am also open to the notion that their function is more mundane. A bit of information for the right person to recognize
Maybe he needs them, not for his benefit but for some future purpose. Maybe for Jon's benefit. Maybe it isn't just Jon's mother calling him from the crypts, voice, maybe it's his parents. Maybe they are just there enstatued to draw Jon. I'm just rambling stream of consciousness stuff now. But I am convinced that there is a reason that we're missing. Or maybe the statues are simply to preserve the likenesses or some sort of message for someone to find. Maybe it isn't a harp or sword that Jon needs to find, maybe it's a resemblance
One would think that Jon had looked at those statues in the past, but maybe if/when he returns to Winterfell, he will look at Brandon as say, "Well shit, I look way more like Uncle Brandon than Father Eddard"! All joking aside, the story has not focused on the statue of Brandon in any great detail so far, but we know it's there, and maybe the detail is yet to be revealed, and it will be Jon seeing a mirror image of himself.
Still, if Lyanna and Brandon are Jon's parents, why are they not side by side in the crypts. The descriptions I have read make it seem like Lyanna and Brandon lie on either side of Rickard, though I am not sure which one comes first. It's possible that the order of the statues might indicate order of death, which seems like Brandon, closely followed by Rickard, and then Lyanna some time after. If it doesn't designate the order of death, then what is the reason for the positioning?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
"Sam the Slayer!" he said, by way of greeting. "Are you sure you stabbed an Other, and not some child's snow knight?"
While that does hint at something worth paying attention to, just like the snowmen on the walls of Winterfell during Roose's "oh shit, everything is going to crap" house party, what would snow men/snow knights be doing north of the wall for Will to see and tell us about in his POV? Is this some wildling trickery? And if the Other's are not animating the dead, then who is? The Great Other, I suppose!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
"Sam the Slayer!" he said, by way of greeting. "Are you sure you stabbed an Other, and not some child's snow knight?"
While that does hint at something worth paying attention to, just like the snowmen on the walls of Winterfell during Roose's "oh shit, everything is going to crap" house party, what would snow men/snow knights be doing north of the wall for Will to see and tell us about in his POV? Is this some wildling trickery? And if the Other's are not animating the dead, then who is? The Great Other, I suppose!
My general thought is that someone or something (or a combination thereof) created the "White Walkers". I think that they are basically golems made of frozen air (frozen nitrogen and liquid oxygen). And they were created to inspire terror north of the Wall by intentionally being created to resemble the White Walkers of legend.
Whoever/whatever created the golems are also animating the dead using the same type of cold magic.
ETA: My guess is that this is some type of conspiracy with the collective consciousness of the Weirnet, the COTF, and their human agents, like Bloodraven.
How would this work? That a bunch of separate people see the same image? It's interesting that it might not be real, but then, what does Bran see in the Lands of Always Winter if it's not these things, or something worse, that is driving the Other's south?
that bunch is extremely small to start of with: 2 (not counting Ben Jen..)
What do you have in mind about Bran's visions? the ice spikes?
My general thought is that someone or something (or a combination thereof) created the "White Walkers". I think that they are basically golems made of frozen air (frozen nitrogen and liquid oxygen). And they were created to inspire terror north of the Wall by intentionally being created to resemble the White Walkers of legend.
I am not that far from your thought. I think they are an emanation of some magic gas (CO2/dry ice) released from holes in the Haunted Forest floor and when seen by hallucinating night's watch men they appear to them as some knights from their childhood scary stories. The hallucinations being caused by the excess of this gas in the ambient air.
Are these gases purposely released by some organised entity? or are they just a rare occurrence of nature? One could ask the same question about a volcanic explosion.
The ww and their spiders are recounted from the Long Night. As you say, 'legends'. Perhaps it was just the same phenomenon then too.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."