1.1 Bran

Stark (pun intended) contrast between the Tully & Stark traits.

Word.

I'm running behind so these things were probably mentioned. I'll go back through the thread when I have more time.

Actually, I don't think anyone mentioned any of this stuff at all. Great observations!

Both Jon & Ned are described as solemn and as seeming older than they are.

I have no idea how many times I've read this chapter now. It's an absurd number, I know that...

But I have never noticed this before.

In isolation, sure. Both are solemn. But I never noticed that this chapter uses the same words for the two, and then also suggests they seem older than they are.

I will have to return to this in Jon I with the "bastards grow up faster" comment...

I've made the argument before that in this story Ironwood is symbolic of protection. (I'll have to track down the link and add it later)

We also have a House Yronwood, who guard the Boneway... as well as the old adage (from Dunk and Egg), "Oak and Iron guard me well, or else I'm damned and doomed to hell," which is, essentially, a statement that Iron+Wood=Protection.

Not only was the Ironwood the place of the execution but the Snows around the stump drank the blood eagerly. For me, this scene suggests a willingness to mix bloodlines, protection and death.

For me, I see the song of ice and fire, and the thirst of the Others. I don't think they are vampires, but they do seem capable of spilling a lot of blood. And what will the trees do? Stand and watch.

Snow=Ice

Blood=Fire

Ironwood Stump = fallen brothers of this guy: :-/

Again with the difference between the "brothers".

Not only that, the boys are already imitating the pups they will very soon adopt.

Imo, the warg-bond between each Stark & Pup has already begun.

They're offering 2 options. 1) She was injured, whelped and died. 2) She succumbed to her injuries then whelped. No one brings up the possibility that she had just whelped and died protecting her newborns from the stag.

I think she was dead when they were born. The tales Jory has heard must exist for a reason, and now, they all seem to be bearing truth.

I don't think she was protecting her pups from a stag, though. Stags are prey, direwolves are hunters. She was likely hunting the stag, and became impaled in the process.

No matter the truth of his parentage Jon was willing to sacrifice for his "siblings" and Ned knows that.

Indeed. The others require the bastard's absolution, rather than the other way around... and this is sooo GRRM.

I'll come back to this later after we read about the feast at Winterfell.

I think I might know where you're headed. Looking forward to it!

For this chapter, I think it is very clear that Jon alone has clarity and understands what has happened.

- Jon first identified the wolf was indeed a direwolf
- Jon first understood the number and gender of the siblings
- Jon alone associated this with the sigil and heirs of the house
- Jon alone could hear Ghost, who makes no sound

Jon alone sees what is happening, while the others in the party trot blindly through the snow.

It is also worth noting that Ghost alone is not looking for milk, and that the other Stark children have nursed from a mother that will soon become a monster. One alone has eyes that are open, and is venturing out into winter. The others are clinging to death.

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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1.1 Bran Sept 22, 2017 18:53:20 GMT kinglittlefinger and shymaid like this

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Post by voice on Sept 22, 2017 18:53:20 GMT

Oh, and of course, the dead she-wolf is in a bed of blood with a peculiar smell

Half-buried in bloodstained snow, a huge dark shape slumped in death. Ice had formed in its shaggy grey fur, and the faint smell of corruption clung to it like a woman's perfume.

And so was Lyanna

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

Born with the dead. Worse luck. :-[

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1.1 Bran Sept 22, 2017 19:44:27 GMT voice and danl like this

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Post by DarkSister1001 on Sept 22, 2017 19:44:27 GMT

Actually, I don't think anyone mentioned any of this stuff at all. Great observations!

Thanks!

I have no idea how many times I've read this chapter now. It's an absurd number, I know that...

But I have never noticed this before.

In isolation, sure. Both are solemn. But I never noticed that this chapter uses the same words for the two, and then also suggests they seem older than they are.

Yup! This was the first time it jumped out at me. How many times have I read this damn series and I'm still catching things?!

We also have a House Yronwood, who guard the Boneway... as well as the old adage (from Dunk and Egg), "Oak and Iron guard me well, or else I'm damned and doomed to hell," which is, essentially, a statement that Iron+Wood=Protection.

Yes sir. Damn, I gotta find that Topic! Just can't remember it I posted here or on W as part of our Bran re-read.

ETA: Here it is!

Stags are prey, direwolves are hunters. She was likely hunting the stag, and became impaled in the process.

True. BUT if a stag is foraging around, minding it's own business and happens upon a Direwolf mom and her new cubs I'm certain a battle will happen. Think of The Revenant. Or perhaps the mom tried to kill the stag for food but lost due to her already weakened condition from just birthing pups.

I think I might know where you're headed. Looking forward to it!

And so was Lyanna

IDK. All the ppl that have died in the birthing bed died after giving birth, not before.

Last Edit: Sept 22, 2017 19:51:26 GMT by DarkSister1001: Found the Topic!

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1.1 Bran Sept 23, 2017 10:26:02 GMT voice, DarkSister1001, and 1 more like this

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Post by lynn on Sept 23, 2017 10:26:02 GMT

Sept 23, 2017 6:16:31 GMT voice said:

We also have a House Yronwood, who guard the Boneway... as well as the old adage (from Dunk and Egg), "Oak and Iron guard me well, or else I'm damned and doomed to hell," which is, essentially, a statement that Iron+Wood=Protection.

Oh! This is very good! The door to the crypts of Winterfell are made of oak and iron. I think Oak and acorn are specific references to the Stark bloodline and this seems to make a connection to the kings of winter and the frozen hell reserved for Starks.

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1.1 Bran Sept 23, 2017 16:51:49 GMT DarkSister1001 and lynn like this

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Post by voice on Sept 23, 2017 16:51:49 GMT

Sept 23, 2017 15:40:16 GMT lynn said:

Oh! This is very good! The door to the crypts of Winterfell are made of oak and iron. I think Oak and acorn are specific references to the Stark bloodline and this seems to make a connection to the kings of winter and the frozen hell reserved for Starks.

In that vein, it also just so happens that the gates of Castle Black are oak and iron.

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1.1 Bran Sept 25, 2017 3:56:35 GMT voice, freyfamilyreunion, and 3 more like this

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Post by stdaga on Sept 25, 2017 3:56:35 GMT

Sept 25, 2017 2:34:58 GMT freyfamilyreunion said:

George doesn't really have to stray from the origins of the fantasy drama (mythology, folklore) to make a pretty twisted, screwed up, weird story. In fact the idea of someone born of incest who can change into a wolf, who has to deal with a step-mother who hates him, isn't even a new idea. It's basically a twist on the tale of Sinfotli from the most famous of the Norse sagas, the Volsunga saga. Heck, there's even a dead giant she-wolf involved.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinfjötli

Not long ago I was commenting on the story of Sinfjotli on a different thread, in the attempt to prove that in myth/legend, stories of incest as used to show how great characters are created to serve a purpose based on the power of blood. I love that someone else knows this story and appreciates the clues in it and how they relate to ASOIAF.

Sinfjotli's mother Signy wished for a son born of her blood (and her brother Sigmund's) in the hope that her son would avenge his clan/family. This connection makes me think of Bran's vision of the godswood at Winterfell.

He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. ADWD-Bran III

Is this woman praying to the gods for a son, Jon, to be born to avenge his family? I know many people think that the visions that Bran has go back further and further in time, and that people don't think this could be Lyanna, but I wonder if it is. I know that common thought is that Lyanna was not at Winterfell at the time she would have been "heavy with child" but I think her whereabouts are linked more to the north than the south, at least until after Jon was born. I have speculated that Jon was born in the north, and I know that not many people will agree with me, but I am still holding onto my tinfoil about this. If Lyanna had the sight, or a form of it, then maybe she saw not only her death, but the death and destruction of much of her family line and so she orchestrated Jon's birth.

I have felt for a long time that Lyanna was not a passive person in this story. She was not kidnapped, but she might have kidnapped someone. No one planted a child in her that she didn't want planted. Her wolf blood stirring up some trouble which led to her eventual death, but not before she fulfilled the role she needed to play. Maybe her connection to the old gods allowed her to both know how her family might fall but also give her some idea of either revenge or redemption.

My other idea for the pregnant woman in the godswood is Lyarra Stark, and she had some knowledge of what would befall her family, or herself. This fit's the timeline of the reverse chronological order of Bran's visions better than the idea of it being Lyanna. If that is the case, then the only child of hers that we know is still alive is Benjen, and it would not surprise me if he has an important role to play. It's also possible Ned could have avenged his mother, too, but we certainly have not been given that part of the story yet. But on a different thread we (evolett) were just discussing the idea that Lyarra was wronged by the Targaryen's, maybe lost a child, or maybe there is another child we don't know about, and so this fits my idea that it could be Lyarra who was praying to the old gods for vengeance. Maybe this whole story is the tale of her vengeance?

I am taking the tinfoil hat off now and I promise to put my cracked pot away!

Sept 25, 2017 2:34:58 GMT freyfamilyreunion said:

I think most people do as well. I know that I have certain expectations for modern fantasy, which are completely colored by the sensibilities of my time. But I wonder if George is intentionally harkening back to the mythological roots of these stories. Where incest, child sacrifice, cannibalism, and other taboo topics are prominently displayed.

He seems to be taking dark and spectacular stories of human culture and myth that have either been forgotten or hidden because of their dark content, and reintroducing them in his magnum opus! I believe GRRM said in an interview I watched or read, that there are really no original stories but that all things come from inspiration related to retelling tales of the past, with different spin's and shades. Not a direct quote by any means but my interpretation of the GRRMeister!

Sept 24, 2017 22:15:39 GMT DarkSister1001 said:

I'm running behind so these things were probably mentioned. I'll go back through the thread when I have more time.

Bran's father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed bears was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. He had a grim cast to his eyes this day, and seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest.

"You did well," Jon told him solemnly. Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice.

Both Jon & Ned are described as solemn and as seeming older than they are.

This is nice work. I have noted the solemn(ness) of the Starks before but never related that to either Ned or Jon seeming older than they are. A really nice connection!

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

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1.1 Bran Sept 25, 2017 6:10:04 GMT stdaga and shymaid like this

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Post by voice on Sept 25, 2017 6:10:04 GMT

Is this woman praying to the gods for a son, Jon, to be born to avenge his family? I know many people think that the visions that Bran has go back further and further in time, and that people don't think this could be Lyanna, but I wonder if it is.

Can it be both?

Humor me a sec. LOL

What if the woman is someone far back in time, a direct ancestor of Lyanna's that has a touch of the wolf blood?

Mayhaps Lyanna is a kindred/reincarnated archetype, or at the very least, a direct descendant of this woman from long ago who brought her prayer to life.

After all, what is time to a tree?

Just as all the Brandons blur together in Old Nan's mind, so too might all the Lyannas blur together in the Old God collective.

I know that common thought is that Lyanna was not at Winterfell at the time she would have been "heavy with child" but I think her whereabouts are linked more to the north than the south, at least until after Jon was born. I have speculated that Jon was born in the north, and I know that not many people will agree with me, but I am still holding onto my tinfoil about this.

I hope you will remind us about this tinfoil when we get to 5.34 (Bran III ADWD) and the green ceremony.

Definitely one of the coolest chapters in the books, and ripe for interpretation.

If Lyanna had the sight, or a form of it, then maybe she saw not only her death, but the death and destruction of much of her family line and so she orchestrated Jon's birth.

I hadn't thought of her orchestrating Jon's birth, but I really like this idea far more than the idea of a man using her. :bow

And the idea of her foreseeing her fate/her house's fate fits very nicely into my pet Lyanna theory... not to mention, GRRM's original short story about Lyanna: A Song for Lya.

So I have to use much stronger language. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE this interp. I think we should build upon it, because I suspect that is EXACTLY what GRRM has done.

I have felt for a long time that Lyanna was not a passive person in this story. She was not kidnapped, but she might have kidnapped someone. No one planted a child in her that she didn't want planted. Her wolf blood stirring up some trouble which led to her eventual death, but not before she fulfilled the role she needed to play. Maybe her connection to the old gods allowed her to both know how her family might fall but also give her some idea of either revenge or redemption.

PREACH!

This is one of the things about RLJ that irks me the most. RLJ ignores the precious few things we learn about Lyanna as a young woman. She had very strong convictions. She was willing to fight knights for the honor of house Stark. And rather than marry a man whom she believed would not keep to one bed, she found her way to an early grave.

But of course, I'm getting ahead of our current chapter.

My other idea for the pregnant woman in the godswood is Lyarra Stark, and she had some knowledge of what would befall her family, or herself. This fit's the timeline of the reverse chronological order of Bran's visions better than the idea of it being Lyanna. If that is the case, then the only child of hers that we know is still alive is Benjen, and it would not surprise me if he has an important role to play. It's also possible Ned could have avenged his mother, too, but we certainly have not been given that part of the story yet. But on a different thread we (evolett) were just discussing the idea that Lyarra was wronged by the Targaryen's, maybe lost a child, or maybe there is another child we don't know about, and so this fits my idea that it could be Lyarra who was praying to the old gods for vengeance. Maybe this whole story is the tale of her vengeance?

Interesting stuff. And GRRM certainly enjoys tales of vengeance.

I don't think we have any evidence that Lyarra was wronged by a Targaryen, but I must admit I don't know much about her (except that she had children with a fellow Stark).

I am taking the tinfoil hat off now and I promise to put my cracked pot away!

LOL! Well take good care of it! I have a feeling we'll all be donning our shiny caps as we cross certain chapters.

He seems to be taking dark and spectacular stories of human culture and myth that have either been forgotten or hidden because of their dark content, and reintroducing them in his magnum opus! I believe GRRM said in an interview I watched or read, that there are really no original stories but that all things come from inspiration related to retelling tales of the past, with different spin's and shades. Not a direct quote by any means but my interpretation of the GRRMeister!

Mine as well. :cheers

I don't know if I explained it as well, but I was trying to convey the same impression of GRRM in Weirwood Ghost.

Not long ago I was commenting on the story of Sinfjotli on a different thread, in the attempt to prove that in myth/legend, stories of incest as used to show how great characters are created to serve a purpose based on the power of blood. I love that someone else knows this story and appreciates the clues in it and how they relate to ASOIAF.

Sinfjotli's mother Signy wished for a son born of her blood (and her brother Sigmund's) in the hope that her son would avenge his clan/family. This connection makes me think of Bran's vision of the godswood at Winterfell.

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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1.1 Bran Sept 25, 2017 7:43:26 GMT danl, stdaga, and 1 more like this

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Post by voice on Sept 25, 2017 7:43:26 GMT

Sept 23, 2017 15:29:15 GMT danl said:

Does Ned ever indicate that Jon has the wolf blood?

Not that I can recall, but if Jon is Lyanna's blood, it is certainly implied in this comment, when Ned flashes a touch of the wolf blood himself:

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Last Edit: Sept 25, 2017 7:48:38 GMT by voice: Dornish keyboard

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1.1 Bran Sept 25, 2017 8:25:49 GMT voice, DarkSister1001, and 2 more like this

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Post by shymaid on Sept 25, 2017 8:25:49 GMT

Sept 25, 2017 7:43:26 GMT voice said:

Sept 23, 2017 15:29:15 GMT danl said:

Does Ned ever indicate that Jon has the wolf blood?

Not that I can recall, but if Jon is Lyanna's blood, it is certainly implied in this comment, when Ned flashes a touch of the wolf blood himself:

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Also when he decends the stairs "in a red rage" at castle Darry before Lady is killed. Ned is a wolf after all. And Jon also shows a touch of the wolf blood from time to time, but I think just as sparingly as Ned.

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1.1 Bran Sept 25, 2017 8:53:41 GMT DarkSister1001, stdaga, and 1 more like this

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Post by voice on Sept 25, 2017 8:53:41 GMT

Sept 25, 2017 8:30:40 GMT shymaid said:

And Jon also shows a touch of the wolf blood from time to time, but I think just as sparingly as Ned.

He plays the quiet wolf part very well, but the dude spent a lot of time licking Ygritte. LOL

Plus, of all the wolves, his pup's eyes alone are open. His chapters read like wolf dreams even when he's awake, imo. He's always spotting details ("A bastard had to learn to notice things, to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes").

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1.1 Bran Sept 25, 2017 9:30:08 GMT voice and stdaga like this

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Post by shymaid on Sept 25, 2017 9:30:08 GMT

He plays the quiet wolf part very well, but the dude spent a lot of time licking Ygritte. LOL

I hope you know the difference between licking and howling! For all we know Ned had the best tounge in Westeros, but Catelyn is too obsessed with her daydreams of Riverrun and her brother to take notice. Mayhaps that was why Ashara looked to Stark. :cool

Plus, of all the wolves, his pup's eyes alone are open. His chapters read like wolf dreams even when he's awake, imo. He's always spotting details ("A bastard had to learn to notice things, to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes").

Nice! As Varamyr said, the force is strong in this one!

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1.1 Bran Sept 25, 2017 14:20:49 GMT voice, DarkSister1001, and 3 more like this

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Post by Nyx on Sept 25, 2017 14:20:49 GMT

Sept 21, 2017 6:56:37 GMT voice said:

Great points, but this doesn't change the fact that Jon is instantly recognizable as a Stark. Arya isn't.

I must have a selective memory then. I thought I read somewhere in GoT that Jon resembles extremely well his sister.

"Jon is instantly recognizable as a Stark", "Jon is very much like Arya" should produce a reasonable "his sister is instantly recognizable as a Stark" or at least "should be instantly recognizable as a Stark", no? I sometimes forget my deduction reasoning process.

The reality is that Jon if the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, he may well take after her what some may call "Uber Stark" features and take his father's brooding, serious and melancholy nature which most assume is Ned's. Lyanna is a wild wolf, instantly recognizable as a Stark. Arya should be too. As far as I am concerned Arya is not recognizable as a Stark simply because she choose to actively hide her nature and physically disguise herself. Arya is just as Uber Stark as Brandon, Lyanna and Jon as far as I remember in the beginning of our story but tragedy and necessity changed all that.

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1.1 Bran Sept 25, 2017 14:40:54 GMT voice and shymaid like this

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Post by stdaga on Sept 25, 2017 14:40:54 GMT

Mayhaps Lyanna is a kindred/reincarnated archetype, or at the very least, a direct descendant of this woman from long ago who brought her prayer to life.

After all, what is time to a tree?

Just as all the Brandons blur together in Old Nan's mind, so too might all the Lyannas blur together in the Old God collective.

This idea is certainly possible. GRRM is messing with time, if not in a physical sense, then certainly a metaphysical sense.

I hope you will remind us about this tinfoil when we get to 5.34 (Bran III ADWD) and the green ceremony.

I am sure I will. My tinfoil is strong and will stand the test of time! LOL

I hadn't thought of her orchestrating Jon's birth, but I really like this idea far more than the idea of a man using her. :bow

And the idea of her foreseeing her fate/her house's fate fits very nicely into my pet Lyanna theory... not to mention, GRRM's original short story about Lyanna: A Song for Lya.

So I have to use much stronger language. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE this interp. I think we should build upon it, because I suspect that is EXACTLY what GRRM has done.

Thank you. I have come to view Lyanna over the years in an evolution in my head. She is presented in the story as a bit passive, as a kidnapping and rape victim who died an unfortunate death and that still haunts her brother. However, as we learn a bit more about Lyanna, and as I have learned about the way GRRM develops characters, I have come to see Lyanna as one of the least passive characters in the story. We know she had the wolf blood, and that certainly affected her outcome. Plus, I just like the idea that she played a role in her fate, not that fate was just dealt to her and she suffered it and then died.

Interesting stuff. And GRRM certainly enjoys tales of vengeance.

I don't think we have any evidence that Lyarra was wronged by a Targaryen, but I must admit I don't know much about her (except that she had children with a fellow Stark).

Well, we know NOTHING about Lyarra Stark, only her name, and that comes from TWOIAF. In the main series, the mother of Ned and Lyanna is a non-character, and I find that lack of mention very, very odd. Too odd for a detailed writer like the GRRMeister! If Lyanna played a role in her own fate, then what might the woman who gave birth to her, and wild and fiery Brandon and quiet and icey Ned and laughing Benjen have been like? I think she is important. I have had a lot of Lyarra (if that is her real name Stark) tinfoil in my head for years; it changes and develops but it has never gone away!

I agree that vengeance has a huge part in this story, on many levels, and some times it plays out in a very destructive manner. "Jon's rage was such that he would have smashed it all in an instant, and the world be damned." AGOT-Jon VI

LOL! Well take good care of it! I have a feeling we'll all be donning our shiny caps as we cross certain chapters.

I'll shine it frequently. It never get's very far from me! :cool

I don't know if I explained it as well, but I was trying to convey the same impression of GRRM in Weirwood Ghost.

I think you did. As a matter of fact, I was just thinking I need to give that a reread and see what else it trigger's in my thoughts!

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

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1.1 Bran Sept 25, 2017 14:48:39 GMT shymaid likes this

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Post by stdaga on Sept 25, 2017 14:48:39 GMT

Sept 25, 2017 10:55:10 GMT shymaid said:

Also when he decends the stairs "in a red rage" at castle Darry before Lady is killed. Ned is a wolf after all. And Jon also shows a touch of the wolf blood from time to time, but I think just as sparingly as Ned.

Yes, I agree that both Ned and Jon have flashes of the wolf blood. "Jon's rage was such that he would have smashed it all in an instant, and the world be damned." AGOT-Jon VI One of my favorite lines from the first book, and I used it twice today.

Sept 25, 2017 14:16:59 GMT Nyx said:

Lyanna is a wild wolf, instantly recognizable as a Stark. Arya should be too. As far as I am concerned Arya is not recognizable as a Stark simply because she choose to actively hide her nature and physically disguise herself. Arya is just as Uber Stark as Brandon, Lyanna and Jon as far as I remember in the beginning of our story but tragedy and necessity changed all that.

I agree that Arya probably looks and acts very Stark like. She does slide under the radar after she escapes from the Red Keep, but I think that is because she is hiding in the south for years, and then Braavos. Had Arya made it to the neck or north, I think people would have known who she was pretty easily. We have been told she has the looks, and we know she has the temperament!

Last Edit: Oct 3, 2017 11:10:57 GMT by stdaga: spelling ... yikes!

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1.1 Bran Sept 25, 2017 16:32:02 GMT voice and stdaga like this

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Post by shymaid on Sept 25, 2017 16:32:02 GMT

Is this woman praying to the gods for a son, Jon, to be born to avenge his family? I know many people think that the visions that Bran has go back further and further in time, and that people don't think this could be Lyanna, but I wonder if it is.

I've put this vision to the side until now, and this is just some preliminary thoughts.
Could it be an ecco? Not actually picturing Lyanna herself but a side of Stark women when the bloodlust and vengance is on them? To link it to old sagas of the north, there it was a woman's task to keep their father, brothers and sons on the path of vengance if it was called for, reminding them of wrongs done to their family and see to it that justice was fullfilled. I cound see this here.

I know that common thought is that Lyanna was not at Winterfell at the time she would have been "heavy with child" but I think her whereabouts are linked more to the north than the south, at least until after Jon was born. I have speculated that Jon was born in the north, and I know that not many people will agree with me, but I am still holding onto my tinfoil about this. If Lyanna had the sight, or a form of it, then maybe she saw not only her death, but the death and destruction of much of her family line and so she orchestrated Jon's birth.

I've thought of this several times, even to the point of wondering how long Jon would live if he ever left the north. Would he even make it to the Twins?
Let me put one more ingredient in your pot, if I may. What if Lyanna had the sight, and had a really interesting convo with Howland at the tourney with him fresh off the Isle of Faces? For months I've wondered if Howland learned something there that came to pass in RR, and if so what did he learn.
I've also speculated that Arthur too had some interesting info that related to Rhaegar's scrolls when comparing notes. Could we have a situation of information from four sources coming together at the very end of the rebellion?

Haha, and now I got myself a bit off track! I hope it was somewhat possible to follow!

I have felt for a long time that Lyanna was not a passive person in this story. She was not kidnapped, but she might have kidnapped someone. No one planted a child in her that she didn't want planted. Her wolf blood stirring up some trouble which led to her eventual death, but not before she fulfilled the role she needed to play. Maybe her connection to the old gods allowed her to both know how her family might fall but also give her some idea of either revenge or redemption.

With Ned's comment of her wolf blood getting her killed, I've thought she was responsible for her own death from my first read. I still don't rule out other parties involving her in their plans (Tywin etc), and her journey being something like Arya's. Not a perfect mirror, but who holding power over whom is shifting.
The baby in her belly was of her own making for sure!

My other idea for the pregnant woman in the godswood is Lyarra Stark, and she had some knowledge of what would befall her family, or herself. This fit's the timeline of the reverse chronological order of Bran's visions better than the idea of it being Lyanna. If that is the case, then the only child of hers that we know is still alive is Benjen, and it would not surprise me if he has an important role to play. It's also possible Ned could have avenged his mother, too, but we certainly have not been given that part of the story yet. But on a different thread we (evolett) were just discussing the idea that Lyarra was wronged by the Targaryen's, maybe lost a child, or maybe there is another child we don't know about, and so this fits my idea that it could be Lyarra who was praying to the old gods for vengeance. Maybe this whole story is the tale of her vengeance?

It could be Lyarra having the vision and telling Lyanna about it? And her daughter picking up where her mother left off? The timeline is a better fit as you say.
There are speculations of the Targaryens seeing trouble with the north/Stark as far back as GQA (voice ), and if so what is to say the Starks didn't get their own version over the years?
Ah, we can go so many ways with this!

I am taking the tinfoil hat off now and I promise to put my cracked pot away!

I tend to have the tinfoil rather close at hand, even to the point of just hanging off my left ear... And the cracked pot under my left arm just in case it get's handy... :tictoc

What if the woman is someone far back in time, a direct ancestor of Lyanna's that has a touch of the wolf blood?

Mayhaps Lyanna is a kindred/reincarnated archetype, or at the very least, a direct descendant of this woman from long ago who brought her prayer to life.

After all, what is time to a tree?

I like this one!

This is one of the things about RLJ that irks me the most. RLJ ignores the precious few things we learn about Lyanna as a young woman. She had very strong convictions. She was willing to fight knights for the honor of house Stark. And rather than marry a man whom she believed would not keep to one bed, she found her way to an early grave.

Yup! Can't agree more! :cheers