1.6 Catelyn

My point was:


As this is the Ned's standard and if he broke it that day, it could be the source of Ned's sadness. Why Arthur had to die (war, sacrifice, whatever) isn't relevant.
Or in one part of the tinfoil garden, Ned decided he didn't deserve to die and spared him.
I'm not totally adverse to the idea of some sort of bloodmagic going on at toj, but far from convinced.


The "seven facing three"-theme came to my mind now. Is Ned short a child? Is there one we don't know about, or is that the source of his and Catelyn's "obsession" to have another? To fit as a parallell to the elements of the dream that unknown or unborn child should be a girl. For the latter a girl would make a better fit with three males and three females, but then Jon is the odd one out (again). Or does both work?
Now I'm rambling... But I'll let it stand.

Yes, there is something up with Catelyn's children and it seems likely it is related to her Whent via Lothston blood line. Blood that might be the blood of Targaryen's, since Aegon IV was rumored to have made a lover of Lady Falena Stokeworth, who married Lucus Lothston, and her daughter Jeyne Lothston, was rumored to have been Aegon's child as well as his eventual lover. Now that's a taboo story. How do these women fit into Catelyn's back story?


This is sure possible. If Ned took a life, not in battle, but in judgement, that might not have deserved death, then it could leave him feeling sad about at. Sorrowful!


Could be a connection. But if Ned is meant to have seven children, and I count Jon, in this case, maybe they were aiming for a seventh to fulfill some number. Both Cat and Ned think of having another child. And they both mention a son, don't they? Not more, but another! Could Theon count, as he was raised in Ned and Catelyn's household? Still, Theon didn't get a wolf, and as far as we know there is no other direwolf orphan running about in the north, just waiting to be claimed. 

And, if it's seven facing three, and the Starks are the seven (but they came up one short), what family is supposed to supply the three? Dany is told several times she is a child of three, and three is overall an important number for her. Although I doubt Dany's parentage, the story tells us that she is the third child of Aerys and Rhaella, and that is how the world knows her. Jaime and Cersei also had three children, but Joff is dead and probably Myrcella and Tommen are doomed. Does that make them worthy of being considered a sacrifice, if the three always are the sacrificed or are supposed to be sacrificed? Those three children of Lannister blood happen to carry the Baratheon name, so does that make a difference too?

The numbers do repeat themselves over and over in this story, and some seem more important that others. Maybe the numbers have nothing to do with it, but three and seven are oft repeated in this series.


That is the only line in the Varamyr prologue that seems like it relates to Ned and Cersei's dreams, but it has to mean something. As to numbers, at his greatest strength, he had himself, three wolves, a shadowcat, a snowbear and an eagle, seven total creatures. At his death, all that remains of his pack is the three wolves, the most loyal of his creatures.

I guess it's possible that GRRM just threw that into Varamyr's prologue to torment readers like me with a false puzzle piece? Like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.


It seems like a beautiful, almost otherworldly puzzle. I am certain the toj dream we get from Ned has many clues and I think it relates to several things in our story, not just to Cersei's dream, or MMD's tent ritual, but it has other echoes in the story as well. The key is recognizing them and then the almost impossible part is trying to interpret what message is involved.

It's amazing to me sometimes when I really realize how complicated this story is. It is stunning!

I like this a lot! Although, it does seem like Ned doesn't really think that the direwolves were a gift at the time they found the pups. It was only after Summer saved Bran that Ned looked at them as a gift from the old gods. And he recognizes that he might have erred in killing Lady. Do you think it was possible that before that moment, Ned recognized they were an omen, but was not sure if it was good or bad?


Nine is another number I have noted that seems significant.



Nine is sacred to the old gods, at least in this place. And this grove is important in Jon and Sam's story line.



Nine is significant to the Stark kings of old. Nine swords!

The weirwood grove and the swords on the Stark crown are two things that have caught my attention in the past, and it seems like a link between the Starks and the old gods.

Now, here are a few more I seen when searching that I had not thought of or realized.



I have to say I have always thought it was an interesting coincidence that Ned brought back a baby from the first time he marched south to war, and when he marched south again, nine years ago, that seems to coincide with Arya's age. Could the Neddard have brought another bastard home, and snuck her into his household. Sansa swears that grumkins must have taken her real sister and left Arya behind? It's tinfoil but I can't get my head past how suspicious it all is.


It eventually lasts longer but I thought it was interesting.


Roose, you creepy fooker!


This nine sons of Quellon Greyjoy is repeated several times, over and over. When Balon finally died, that only leaves three, Euron, Victarion and Aeron. Nine and three. Interesting!

Maybe I am crazy but Dany being frightened of nine murders makes me think of the nine swords on the Stark crown. Maybe there is no connection but it just struck me as worth noting. I don't know if all of those murders were by blade or sword, but the Son's of the Harpy are a danger to Dany's dreams.


Nine and three, again.
Nine and three, again.


I didn't realize just how often Nine is mentioned with the Free Cities. It's a lot! I don't know if means anything at all but it comes up. At least 13 times, and the free cities are considered the daughters of old valyria!


Well, it turns out nine comes up often in the text, and I have no idea if it all holds significance or not. But some of them seem important, or mystical. As to the number of books GRRM plans to write to wrap this series up, he says seven, but I have always felt like it's going to be nine! Maybe I just like the number nine. Right now, I would be very happy to get book number six!

I wonder if we should have a numerology thread, or maybe we do. I really enjoy looking at the wording and searching for connections.

I feel like I might be ready to tackle my thoughts on this chapter. I am going to try not to repeat stuff that is already in the discussion but some of it will no doubt be rehashed. And there is so much information, foreshadowing and symbolism in this chapter, I will probably struggle to keep it to XYZ. But I am going to try!


Ned has grasped Cat's arms for a couple seconds, five or ten, no more than that, and in that time, he has left deep red marks on her arm. I think this is a sign of Ned's strength. I know Ned is not often thought of as exceptionally strong, but this seems to be a hint of just how strong he is. Deep red marks on the skin after ten seconds of the hardest grasp I have, did not leave deep marks on my skin. I think Ned is stronger than we give him credit for. I think this a nod to Jon's strength, especially because he and Ned are probably smaller framed men, and a nod to Robb's strength, as well. Bran also must be strong to climb trees and walls like he does.


Couple things here. First of all, Cat implores for Ned to put his duty to his "brother" Robert, a brother not of blood but by life, before his own wishes and concerns. And Ned does that. Ned is not selfish, Ned is not willful.

We will see Jon do this very same thing. He will put his brothers of the Night's Watch, his brothers by a pledge, ahead of his own concerns and interests time and time again. Jon is not selfish, Jon is not willful, as lynn got me to thinking about the other day.

Granted this could be a connection because Ned raised Jon, but deep down, they are so much alike, I find it hard to see Jon as any man's biological child besides Eddard.

The second thing I note again in this passage is the melancholy that is attributed to Ned and the Starks. Robert is also noted to be melancholy in the text, as well as Rhaegar, but that does not change the fact it is a behavior that is noted in all of them. Jon is never described as melancholy, but his behavior fits the definition, a feeling of pensive sadness, typically with no obvious cause; sad and pensive. This fits Jon, but it doesn't fit Dany, so while Dany has several Stark-like things that pop up around her, this isn't one of them as far as I can see.

And the final thing that strikes me in this passage is the "silent farewell" that Eddard gives to Winterfell and the north. It makes me think of Ghost, the silent wolf, and Ghost silent farewell to Jon before Jon and Ygritte climb the wall. The connections between Ned's silence/quietness and Ghost strike me more all of the time. I think we already discussed this upthread, but it's a strong enough connection between Jon and Ned that I can't ignore it. Robert is anything but silent in nature. Brandon Stark does not strike me as quiet/silent in nature. Arthur Dayne may have been silent by nature, but we really don't know.  We certainly know his "knees don't bend", and he is sad, but not the quietness of Ned and Ghost. Ned is the quiet wolf, Jon has the quiet wolf!



So, we know that Robb is fourteen, and so is Jon. We already knew Robb and Jon were "of an age" according to Bran, and that Jon was fourteen and an old hand at justice, and the fact that their age is repeated in this chapter, since it was so bluntly stated in Bran I, means their ages are noteworthy for some reason. They are both fourteen. Okay!

But people can both be fourteen years old, while one is clearly older and younger, and I am starting to wonder if that is not the case with Robb and Jon. Much debate has gone into their ages, many people, myself included feel like Jon is older, and that it seems like a hidden concept, or someone is lying about Jon's age. But what if there is no lie. What if Jon is older than Robb, even by a few months, and it is well known? I will come back to this in a bit.

My honorable mention here is that Ned's words, sent an "icy draft" through Catelyn's heart. Ned as will later be noted to put "ice in his voice" and "Ned's voice was ice". I enjoy the effect it has on Catelyn, because I am an asshole, but I also have noted a connection to everyone's favorite Khaleesi, "Dany said, cold as ice". It is one of the connections that I can't shake that tie Dany to the Starks, and very directly, to Eddard.

I did't believe that Jon ever spoke with "ice" in his voice, which is noteworthy, for me at least. It casts some doubt. But after searching quite a bit, I found this.


Maybe there is a bit of Ned's voice in Jon, but it's not the "ice" reference I was hoping for. Still, we can only work with what the text gives us.

Now,to the meat of the debate, so to speak:


So, Cat is both okay with the idea of Ned sharing other womens beds, and if he fathers a child, she thinks it's normal for him to care for that child. She also seems to think that it is especially okay if he is away from her on campaign when this happens. So, she is not jealous, or at least was not jealous in the early days of her marriage. I still don't see her as very jealous. At least not of people. Places and power she seems to covet, but not people.

It also gives us the idea that Cat thinks that Jon could have been conceived on campaign, but does she really think that?


Jon was already at Winterfell when she arrived with Robb. Is this the source of her worry, that Jon had a sort of claim to Winterfell because he lived in the castle before Robb? Is this something we have not been told about people in the north? Or the Starks? A tradition of the first men?

The Starks were not like other men? How are they different? Does claiming a bastard and raising him in Winterfell make him just as likely to inherit as any other child, in spite of base born or true born status? It seems unlikely, but Cat certainly worries about Jon stealing her childrens right to Winterfell.


First of all, more coldness and ice in the Neddards voice!

Secondly, we are now told by Cat that Jon looks like Ned, so much so that it makes the entire situation worse!

So, we get a huge information drop in this couple of paragraphes. Ashara, Arthur, Dawn, Ned killing Arthur, Ned being sad, Ned traveling to Starfall, Ned returning Dawn, Ashara's death, and Ned getting really, really pissy when asked about either Ashara or Jon, depending on how Cat asked the question, and how much Ned must love the woman who was Jon's mother.

I now we have discussed these things over and over and will continue to, but as far as parentage go, this seems like an almost obvious hint to pay attention to Eddard and Ashara, and by the way, might this also have to do with Jon. Who we found out recently does not know who his mother was, and therefore his mother  is a secret, and maybe this is the secret. Ned and Ashara. But I can never get around why it would need to be a secret. Not even a secret marriage is any reason to avoid telling Jon and the world who his mother is. The wedding can remain a secret (if it happened which, I don't think it did) but the truth of Jon's father and mother should still be able to be told.

But, its a legitimate option. Ned and Ashara make baby Jon!

Let's flash back to a passage earlier in this chapter.


Ned and Cat have a couple shadows in their bedroom. How uncomfortable! And I think my cats trying to sleep on my head is a problem, but it's nothing compared to Ned and Cat's shadows! 

But we are also told that Catelyn thinks that Ned must have loved Jon's mother very, very much. And in the Ned's own mind, we will remember, that he has told us that he loved his sister Lyanna, "with all his heart". Lyanna, the statue in the crypts who whispers "promise me" to Ned. So it makes sense that we would suddenly think of Lyanna as Jon's mother, but since our minds can't fathom how Lyanna could be Jon's mother if Ned is Jon's father, we look for other options for Jon's father. In other places in the story, I see Rhaegar and Robert hints, but not in this chapter. In this chapter we get hints of two men that are not so obvious, and one who has claimed Jon as his son.

The first is Arthur Dayne, and the second is Brandon Stark. The final option I see is Eddard Stark. Let's discuss these options.

But there is something underlying in the same story, and that involves the other mention in the story. Ser Arthur Dayne and his magic sword. What did SAD do with his "sword", what does Dawn mean to the story, and who could Arthur have used that "sword" on? Lyanna, who is dead in the crypts. If Arthur and Lyanna equal Jon, I will give credit for how subtly it was done. While we are focused on Ned and Ashara, the truth is layered into the same passages, but it's Arthur and Lyanna. I didn't see this option for a long time, but it is subtle and rather quietly placed. And it connects Jon to the sword Dawn. But it doesn't give him a connection to being Lord of Winterfell.

The same can be said for the subtleness of Brandon and Lyanna if that turns out to be the case. Earlier, Cat tells us that she knows Brandon Stark is a shadow in her marriage, and also the woman who was Jon's mother. I give voice all the credit for laying this concept out nicely in the S+L=J thread about those shadows being Brandon and Lyanna.

But if you are willing to consider Brandon and Lyanna, you might as well consider Ned and Lyanna, too. Ned and Lyanna is probably the hardest to imagine because it's really weird think to think about the quiet, honorable, proper, formal Eddard Stark, having sex with his sister. The woman his best friend was engaged to. That is a complicated triangle. But GRRM seems to like the complications of triangles!

It's icky, but incest is in the story. At first it seemed layered in, but once you accept it, it seems like it's around every weirwood, watching you while you try not to watch it. We don't know a lot about Brandon, but we know a lot about Ned and Jon, and they are very alike. They look alike, they act alike, and if I had to put money down, I would say the guilty Stark brother is Eddard, but it see Brandon as a legitimate possibility.

Any option for Starkcest harkens back to when Tyrion tells Jon "you have more of the north in you than your brothers". Well, if both your parents are Starks, you certainly would. And it's a very good reason for Ned to not want to tell Jon, or Catelyn, or Robert, or just about anyone, including the north, the truth of Jon's parentage. It also makes me think of "how could they have all been so blind? The truth was there in front of them all the time, written on the children's faces"!



Catelyn plainly tells Ned that Jon is his son. In this passage, there doesn't seem to be any reason to think that she doubts that Jon is exactly what Ned claims him to be, his bastard son. But earlier, she thinks of Ned calling Jon his "son" in quotations, and that seems to imply she might question that Jon is actually Ned's blood child. The other option I can see is the idea of the north, the first men, and the fact that Ned is not only raising his bastard, but he calls him "son" which might put him on equal footing with Robb. "Our ways are the old ways", Ned tells Bran, and maybe that has more than just passing sentences and swinging swords!

Also, Ned is really, really melodramatic here about Jon being unable to go south. Why? Is it really related to society in the south. I kind of doubt it, though Ned does seem both proper and a bit prudish. Maybe Jon can't go south for more metaphysical reasons. Maybe a certain ghost in the crypts has told Eddard that Jon must remain in the north?



Finally, this seems to alert us to the fact that even though Jon is a bastard, Catelyn Tully Stark is truly worried about his claim to Winterfell. And she see's the Night's Watch as a way for Jon to never have a chance to inherit Winterfell again. We will see her even argue with Robb about this when Robb needs to name an heir. Cat had stopped worrying about Jon, even felt a bit guilty about him at the wall, but now, suddenly, Robb has caused her to worry about Jon all over again. All that conniving and manipulation for nothing. Poor Cat!

The grandchildren line is also interesting, because if Jon does eventually have children with Arya or Sansa (or both, mirroring Aegon and his sister-wives) then Jon's children will be Catelyn's grandchildren. Maybe she could rest easy, then?


I know that Ned get's a lot of criticism for sending Jon to the wall, (even from Jon himself) and we know from Jon's perspective that the wall is not a comfortable or easy place, but I really think that Ned recognizes honor in serving, and maybe he truly thinks this might be a good chance for Jon to succeed. Benjen has done well at the wall, and is the First Ranger, which is a huge honor. I don't think Ned feels bad that Benjen's life is at the wall. The Starks have been serving on the wall for thousands of years. Benjen and Jon are just a continuation of that tradition, as far as Ned might see it.

This is the first time that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard, he says out loud that a bastard could find a place on the wall. And later, after the visit to Barra in the brothel, Ned will think of Jon's face and bastards and the gods filling men with such lusts that create bastards. I can't help but think that Jon is truly base born.

Also, Ned is making a hard choice to give up Winterfell, a place he loves as much as Jon loves it. Luwin is right, Jon's path and Ned's path are equally difficult. They are both leaving a place they love, a place that haunts them both in their dreams.


I note again the long face of the Starks, and that Ned, Jon, Arya, and Rickard (statue) are noted to have this trait.

Also, it's interesting that Luwin wants to be a part of Ned telling Jon about the wall, but Ned seems to wish to deliver the message himself. Does Luwin want to be involved to help Ned and Jon at this surely difficult time, or does he wish to control the narrative of what is said?

So, two conversations I would shed blood to be able to have eavesdropped on are 1) Ned and Benjen, discussing Jon going to the wall, and 2) Ned and Jon, when Jon finds out he is to go to the wall and become a brother of the Night's Watch. I suppose, if we had those conversations, we might have too many important questions answered, and there might not be nearly the mystery that we are presented with solving. Still, I would shed my own blood, a sacrifice, to know what was said!

So, I am going to touch back on this age issue with Robb and Jon here. They are both fourteen, but what if Jon is plainly older than Robb. Not even suspected, but everyone knows that Jon is older than Robb. Is this part of the "Starks were not like other men" issue? That, maybe by the ways of the first men, that the eldest son/child inherits, in spite of the legality of his birth? Is that why Cat worries? Because Jon is older than Robb, and every dang person in the north knows it? Because she tells us in her thoughts later that Edric Storm poses no threat to Stannis's inheritance because the boy is a bastard. Catelyn plainly calls Jon both Ned's son and his bastard. She seems to be disputing neither. So, it her concern the old ways, the ways of the first men, the ways of the Starks before the Andals and the Rhoynar and the Targaryen's came to Westeros?

I am truly beginning to think that Jon is known to be older than Robb, and whether he is a bastard or not, the fact that he is Eddards eldest son is important in the north. Later Ned will also think of Jon as bastard born. I don't think he is lying about that. So Catelyn's concerns seem unfounded, unless, the ways of the Starks and the First Men and the north are her concern, and because Jon is elder than Robb, all things should be Jon's.

If Cat worries that Jon is Brandon's son, and the oldest son of the oldest son inherits, based on the ways of the north, that might also give her a reason to worry about Jon inheriting over Robb.

It's crazy talk, but it could be information that she has gleaned from Maester Luwin over the years, and that is why she is concerned. There is no doubt in Dance that The Flint and The Norrey are sizing Jon up as more than just the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, they are sizing up the Ned's son. Certainly his eldest son, since Robb's murder, but maybe always Ned's eldest son. They know, the north knows! I just wonder if it's one of those purposeful omissions in the text, we don't know the information but everyone in-world knows, and therefore it is not mentioned. I would think that the custom of the eldest son to inherit, whether he was legitimate or not, has fallen by the way side since the north is now part of the Seven Kingdoms, but it might be something that Cat worries about. She has deep senses about things, and if she is concerned, I am beginning to think it's for a reason. I think Cat has a bit of the sight, and so does Sansa, at least. Maybe baby Rickon, too!

Of course, Jon's Night's Watch vows are problematic, but Robb felt like they could be gotten around, and maybe others in the north agree.

The derailment portion of this chapter because I am incapable of sticking to XYZ:


I am including this because it contains one of my favorite phrases in the story, "a thousand times before". I think that has some huge significance to the story, but I will talk about that when we get to the second time it's mentioned.

Here, I would like to focus on Ned after sex with Cat. It seems it is a habit or custom for Ned to finish, then throw open a window and stand naked in the cold air. Does Ned see this as a cleansing, a washing away and baptism of the outside, the cold, the north? A thousand times before, he climbed from Cat's bed and embraced the north? What or who is he thinking of when he stands by that open window, gazing into the night?


So, Ned obviously has some type of feeling about Joffrey's character. I don't think it's just his Lannisterness that Ned is concerned with. But Catelyn is not concerned with that at all. All she see's is Joff's title and power, and then, weirdly enough, she compares Joffrey to Brandon. Now, I have questioned if Brandon was a bit of a lothario, but I have never felt like he was a bad person. But Cat telling us all she see's is a title to marry and discounting character, while talking about Joff but switching her thoughts to Brandon makes me wonder if Brandon Stark was more like Joffrey than we think. Could Brandon have been mean, petty, cruel? Things that Catelyn ignored because she had her eyes on the prize of Winterfell? I never thought of him that way before now, but ...

Sorry I blathered on so long. I certainly didn't mean to, it's just such a compelling chapter and again it has a TON of information to sift through.

I look at Ned's feelings about Aerys and Rhaegar (which are essentially positive) and wonder if Ned thinks Aerys needed to kill them as he did. Why? What could they have been planning? I have no idea. But I think Lyanna was mixed up in it somehow. And Jon the mystery baby is likely implicated, and Ned may understand it
So when a direwolf shows up, maybe Ned has some idea what is happening. Not only is it constructed of tinfoil, I really haven't put together a real theory

I can go either way here. Maybe he knows the direwolves are important and intends to let them live. Maybe he is hoping he can avoid fate by killing them. Either way, I suspect that he knows more than he is saying. (That said, I have a hard time reconciling that theory with his thoughts about the wolves after he kills Lady)

LmL does that to me. I usually start out interested and at some point am lost in the detail. And that style of theorizing often frustrates me. Occasionally I really enjoy him though

My top three reasons why Ned wouldn't tell Jon: 1) Starkcest. But then I would expect him to lie, unless he promised to tell him who his mother is, and intends to do so, sometime. 2) Jon is a royal baby and Ned wants to shield him from the violence and pain that would cause. 3) Jon is a prophecy baby and Ned wants to protect him from his fate. If 2 and 3, maybe Ned intends that Jon eventually learn the truth so he doesn't tell him a comforting lie

Agreed. Neither the deaths outside of the tent or outside of the tower seems to be part of the ritual The parallel may be strictly literary, or it may be shaped by power flowing from the ritual.

OK. That's interesting. Now I'm going to have to go back and re-read those tower passages again, probably today. Although I have wondered whether "tower long fallen" is from the perspective of the events of the story or from the perspective of the memory.

If a prince of summer crowned a winter maiden queen, maybe winter was ascendant. I have long suspected that the crowning of Lyanna was a signal that was misunderstood. Rhaegar was trying to signal to the Starks that he is with them. The Stark brothers misunderstood it as an insult. Maybe Lyanna understood it and pursued Rhaegar or maybe she misunderstood it (but differently) and pursued Rhaegar. Maybe the Winter Queen took the Summer Prince into her dark halls and winter returned.