Post by stdaga on Nov 6, 2017 21:23:36 GMT
I would say that this chapter has some clues to the reader about Cersei and Robert's royal children, who we will find out are actually children that were sired in an incestuous relationship by her twin brother Jaime. It's subtle at this point in the story, but looking back, it should have been obvious how much those children look like the Lannister family and nothing at all like the Baratheon's they are supposed to be.
I personally find the incest aspect important to what might be the outcome of some other parentage mysteries in the story. And Dany has already told us in her first pov that she is the daughter of a married brother and sister couple, a child of incest.
Also, there might be some clues to the parentage of Jaime and Cersei, as well as Tyrion, sprinkled throughout the chapter.
So we know that Cersei and Jaime are beautiful, have the same blond tumbling curls, the same deep green eyes. And even though they are twins, but since they are female and male, then cannot be identical, so for fraternal twins, they look remarkably alike. We will later hear that Cersei used to dress as Jaime and fool many people at Casterly Rock. We already got a description in looks of the children, from Jon's pov. With Myrcella and Joffrey having golden girls, while Tommen's hair is white-blond. I think the white blond hair is very interesting, because that hints at possible Targaryen blood in these Lannisters, but that might be me overthinking things. From Jon's pov, Cersei and Jamie had golden curls and emerald or flashing green eyes, while Tyrion has the lank blond hair that appears almost white. I wonder if Aerys might not be the father of all these Lannisters, or the white-blond hair that is noted in Tyrion and Tommen is a clue about something else. I see it as a distinction between the golden curls of Cersei, Jaime, Joffrey and Myrcella.
Just something I think is interesting, is Tyrion's thoughts about being a twin. I don't think he does have a hidden twin somewhere, but the twin gene does lie in the Lannister blood it seems. (Maybe Targaryen blood, if a person believes that Aerys could have fathered these children on Joanna) It seems possible to be that Tyrion might have been a twin, with two fertilized eggs melding to form one child with a combination of dna. It's very odd but it could explain Tyrion's mismatched eyes. A chimera, while being a genetic termis a single organism composed of cells from different zygotes, in mythology it is a monstrous fire-breathing hybrid of several creatures, like a lion, a snake, a goat and having a tail. Seeing a chimera was usually disastrous.
As to the behavior of Joff, Myrcella and Tommen,
Just from this passage we get the impression that Joff is a bit of a shit, not very nice, and prone to being mean. We later will find out about his cure and sadistic streak. This seems encouraged by Cersei and tolerated by the Hound. Tyrion does neither, which does make he and Joff eventual enemies. I wonder how Joff could have improved as a person, if he had less of his mothers influence, and more from Jaime, Tyrion and even Tywin. Anyway, we have been given enough in a few looks at Joffrey to find him not very likable. This is now from Tyrion's pov, but also Jon and Arya's.
So, Tommen is a sweet boy. Not like his brother.
This line "not like his brother" can be read two ways. As in, as Tommen's brother, who is Joff. It also could be read as "not like his (Tyrion's) brother" Jaime. Sometimes I think this is the very first clue to us the reader, that Tyrion quite suspects the truth of his sisters children.
Since we already question the type of person Cersei is, from Jon and Tyrion's pov, this should be encouraging to note that Myrcella does not have the nature of her mother even if she shares her beauty.
These lines should be a clue to the read down the road, when Cersei and Jaime's "abomination" children are revealed, that the fact of their birth doesn't create their nature. Myrcella and Tommen both seem to be quite decent and kind young children. Joffrey is not decent, nor kind. But his behavior is not blamed on the incest. I think people tend to forget that, when they condemn Jaime and Cersei's incest, or blame some of Joffrey's behavior on his incest birth, that incest did not cause Myrcella and Tommen to be awful people.
**One tinfoil thought on Rhaegar.
An interesting phrasing. A boy prince, and not this boy prince or the boy prince. A boy prince. Besides Joffrey and Tommen, the other boy prince I think of in this story is Rhaegar. And much later, Aegon, but he is not officially a prince of anything. And while we never see Rhaegar as a boy, except for one report of him being very studious, this line makes me wonder if he too, was petulant as a child? I guess Viserys was 8 when he fled Kings Landing, and that is enough time to form a poor impression of oneself. Now, Tyrion would not have known Rhaegar, but Tyrion has lived at the Red Keep, and perhaps people talk.
This line might be only in regards to Joffrey, who a petulant boy prince, but was he the only one that the kingdom has known? Tommen certainly does not strike me as petulant.
I know there is not a lot in this chapter that is a mystery, but I think there are some important clues that we can pick out for parentage mysteries yet to be revealed, like Jon or Dany's, and possibly Cersei, Jaime and/or Tyrion's truth.
I personally find the incest aspect important to what might be the outcome of some other parentage mysteries in the story. And Dany has already told us in her first pov that she is the daughter of a married brother and sister couple, a child of incest.
Also, there might be some clues to the parentage of Jaime and Cersei, as well as Tyrion, sprinkled throughout the chapter.
Tyrion turned back to his siblings. Twins, male and female. They looked very much the part this morning. Both had chosen a deep green that matched their eyes. Their blond curls were all a fashionable tumble, and gold ornaments shone at wrists and fingers and throats.
Tyrion wondered what it would be like to have a twin, and decided that he would rather not know. Bad enough to face himself in a looking glass every day. Another him was a thought too dreadful to contemplate. AGOT-Tyrion I
Tyrion wondered what it would be like to have a twin, and decided that he would rather not know. Bad enough to face himself in a looking glass every day. Another him was a thought too dreadful to contemplate. AGOT-Tyrion I
Just something I think is interesting, is Tyrion's thoughts about being a twin. I don't think he does have a hidden twin somewhere, but the twin gene does lie in the Lannister blood it seems. (Maybe Targaryen blood, if a person believes that Aerys could have fathered these children on Joanna) It seems possible to be that Tyrion might have been a twin, with two fertilized eggs melding to form one child with a combination of dna. It's very odd but it could explain Tyrion's mismatched eyes. A chimera, while being a genetic termis a single organism composed of cells from different zygotes, in mythology it is a monstrous fire-breathing hybrid of several creatures, like a lion, a snake, a goat and having a tail. Seeing a chimera was usually disastrous.
As to the behavior of Joff, Myrcella and Tommen,
The rising sun had not yet cleared the walls of Winterfell, but the men were already hard at it in the yard below. Sandor Clegane's rasping voice drifted up to him. "The boy is a long time dying. I wish he would be quicker about it."
Tyrion glanced down and saw the Hound standing with young Joffrey as squires swarmed around them. "At least he dies quietly," the prince replied. "It's the wolf that makes the noise. I could scarce sleep last night."
Clegane cast a long shadow across the hard-packed earth as his squire lowered the black helm over his head. "I could silence the creature, if it please you," he said through his open visor. His boy placed a longsword in his hand. He tested the weight of it, slicing at the cold morning air. Behind him, the yard rang to the clangor of steel on steel.
The notion seemed to delight the prince. "Send a dog to kill a dog!" he exclaimed. "Winterfell is so infested with wolves, the Starks would never miss one."
Tyrion hopped off the last step onto the yard. "I beg to differ, nephew," he said. "The Starks can count past six. Unlike some princes I might name."
Joffrey had the grace at least to blush.
"A voice from nowhere," Sandor said. He peered through his helm, looking this way and that. "Spirits of the air!"
The prince laughed, as he always laughed when his bodyguard did this mummer's farce. Tyrion was used to it. "Down here."
The tall man peered down at the ground, and pretended to notice him. "The little lord Tyrion," he said. "My pardons. I did not see you standing there."
"I am in no mood for your insolence today." Tyrion turned to his nephew. "Joffrey, it is past time you called on Lord Eddard and his lady, to offer them your comfort."
Joffrey looked as petulant as only a boy prince can look. "What good will my comfort do them?"
"None," Tyrion said. "Yet it is expected of you. Your absence has been noted."
"The Stark boy is nothing to me," Joffrey said. "I cannot abide the wailing of women."
Tyrion Lannister reached up and slapped his nephew hard across the face. The boy's cheek began to redden.
"One word," Tyrion said, "and I will hit you again."
"I'm going to tell Mother!" Joffrey exclaimed.
Tyrion hit him again. Now both cheeks flamed.
"You tell your mother," Tyrion told him. "But first you get yourself to Lord and Lady Stark, and you fall to your knees in front of them, and you tell them how very sorry you are, and that you are at their service if there is the slightest thing you can do for them or theirs in this desperate hour, and that all your prayers go with them. Do you understand? Do you?"
The boy looked as though he was going to cry. Instead, he managed a weak nod. Then he turned and fled headlong from the yard, holding his cheek. Tyrion watched him run. AGOT-Tyrion I
Tyrion glanced down and saw the Hound standing with young Joffrey as squires swarmed around them. "At least he dies quietly," the prince replied. "It's the wolf that makes the noise. I could scarce sleep last night."
Clegane cast a long shadow across the hard-packed earth as his squire lowered the black helm over his head. "I could silence the creature, if it please you," he said through his open visor. His boy placed a longsword in his hand. He tested the weight of it, slicing at the cold morning air. Behind him, the yard rang to the clangor of steel on steel.
The notion seemed to delight the prince. "Send a dog to kill a dog!" he exclaimed. "Winterfell is so infested with wolves, the Starks would never miss one."
Tyrion hopped off the last step onto the yard. "I beg to differ, nephew," he said. "The Starks can count past six. Unlike some princes I might name."
Joffrey had the grace at least to blush.
"A voice from nowhere," Sandor said. He peered through his helm, looking this way and that. "Spirits of the air!"
The prince laughed, as he always laughed when his bodyguard did this mummer's farce. Tyrion was used to it. "Down here."
The tall man peered down at the ground, and pretended to notice him. "The little lord Tyrion," he said. "My pardons. I did not see you standing there."
"I am in no mood for your insolence today." Tyrion turned to his nephew. "Joffrey, it is past time you called on Lord Eddard and his lady, to offer them your comfort."
Joffrey looked as petulant as only a boy prince can look. "What good will my comfort do them?"
"None," Tyrion said. "Yet it is expected of you. Your absence has been noted."
"The Stark boy is nothing to me," Joffrey said. "I cannot abide the wailing of women."
Tyrion Lannister reached up and slapped his nephew hard across the face. The boy's cheek began to redden.
"One word," Tyrion said, "and I will hit you again."
"I'm going to tell Mother!" Joffrey exclaimed.
Tyrion hit him again. Now both cheeks flamed.
"You tell your mother," Tyrion told him. "But first you get yourself to Lord and Lady Stark, and you fall to your knees in front of them, and you tell them how very sorry you are, and that you are at their service if there is the slightest thing you can do for them or theirs in this desperate hour, and that all your prayers go with them. Do you understand? Do you?"
The boy looked as though he was going to cry. Instead, he managed a weak nod. Then he turned and fled headlong from the yard, holding his cheek. Tyrion watched him run. AGOT-Tyrion I
"I don't want Brandon to die," Tommen said timorously. He was a sweet boy. Not like his brother, but then Jaime and Tyrion were somewhat less than peas in a pod themselves. AGOT-Tyrion I
This line "not like his brother" can be read two ways. As in, as Tommen's brother, who is Joff. It also could be read as "not like his (Tyrion's) brother" Jaime. Sometimes I think this is the very first clue to us the reader, that Tyrion quite suspects the truth of his sisters children.
"Will Bran get better, Uncle?" little Myrcella asked. She had all of her mother's beauty, and none of her nature. AGOT-Tyrion I
These lines should be a clue to the read down the road, when Cersei and Jaime's "abomination" children are revealed, that the fact of their birth doesn't create their nature. Myrcella and Tommen both seem to be quite decent and kind young children. Joffrey is not decent, nor kind. But his behavior is not blamed on the incest. I think people tend to forget that, when they condemn Jaime and Cersei's incest, or blame some of Joffrey's behavior on his incest birth, that incest did not cause Myrcella and Tommen to be awful people.
**One tinfoil thought on Rhaegar.
Joffrey looked as petulant as only a boy prince can look. AGOT-Tyrion I
This line might be only in regards to Joffrey, who a petulant boy prince, but was he the only one that the kingdom has known? Tommen certainly does not strike me as petulant.
I know there is not a lot in this chapter that is a mystery, but I think there are some important clues that we can pick out for parentage mysteries yet to be revealed, like Jon or Dany's, and possibly Cersei, Jaime and/or Tyrion's truth.