Post by shymaid on Nov 21, 2017 8:26:15 GMT
In this reread several interesting points and questions have been brought up about Luwin and his possible motivations and actions. I've been wanting to summarize these for some time now and finally got to collecting the quotes I wanted, and thought I'd do it here so we all could make use of it!
Please feel free to add what you want, including other maesters, to make a fuller picture! All quotes are in the order they are posted in the threads. There will be some overlap here with the same points made several times, but I'll include them non the less.
From 1.6 Catelyn:
I think Cat did fear any Stark offspring that are not her own, and she could have easily planted the idea that Benjen wanted to join the Night's Watch. And he might have been interested in some way, like Jon was interested it it. But I think that the idea might have been planted in Jon's head by Luwin, just like the idea that bastards grow up faster than other children was planted in Jon's head by Luwin. Maybe Luwin planted the interest in Benjen's head too? But we do get a hint that Benjen might have already been interested in the Watch as far back as Harrenhal, so that might be stretching things to much! 
Cat has every reason for wanting Jon, and Benjen, gone from Winterfell, and in a way that eliminates them, or any children of their bodies, from the succession.
I can't decide if I think that Luwin was in on the plan to further Catelyn's wishes, or if he might have had ulterior motives. I have wondered if Luwin might not have suspected that Jon might not be safe at Winterfell with Ned gone and the castle under Catelyn's control, and that the wall might have been a safe place for Jon. It's possible that he could have felt this way about Benjen, too. It just seems like a parallel we are being shown in this generation that could have happened in the last.
Also, Ned is making a hard choice to give up Winterfell, a place he loves as much as Jon loves it. Luwin is right, Jon's path and Ned's path are equally difficult. They are both leaving a place they love, a place that haunts them both in their dreams.
Also, it's interesting that Luwin wants to be a part of Ned telling Jon about the wall, but Ned seems to wish to deliver the message himself. Does Luwin want to be involved to help Ned and Jon at this surely difficult time, or does he wish to control the narrative of what is said?
It's crazy talk, but it could be information that she has gleaned from Maester Luwin over the years, and that is why she is concerned. There is no doubt in Dance that The Flint and The Norrey are sizing Jon up as more than just the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, they are sizing up the Ned's son. Certainly his eldest son, since Robb's murder, but maybe always Ned's eldest son. They know, the north knows! I just wonder if it's one of those purposeful omissions in the text, we don't know the information but everyone in-world knows, and therefore it is not mentioned. I would think that the custom of the eldest son to inherit, whether he was legitimate or not, has fallen by the way side since the north is now part of the Seven Kingdoms, but it might be something that Cat worries about. She has deep senses about things, and if she is concerned, I am beginning to think it's for a reason. I think Cat has a bit of the sight, and so does Sansa, at least. Maybe baby Rickon, too!
Of course, Jon's Night's Watch vows are problematic, but Robb felt like they could be gotten around, and maybe others in the north agree.
I didn't really notice Luwin's remark in this way, just that Ned wanted to shoulder this himself. Just like Ned to want that! So interesting thought there!
Did Luwin want to prevent any talk of Jon's mother? Maybe he (and/or Cat suspect this would come up as a counterpoint for Jon joining?) Or hear what might be said of this?
Maybe we should make a blood sacrifice to Martin so he writes this and holds on to it until his death, so it would be released after his death if he doesn't finish the books?
I'd also love to see those! Or mayhaps the scene with Ned and Jon in the show with the imfamous "We'll talk the next time we see eachother" was Martin's work to give us a hint of the last one.
And speaking of interuptions! We have some interesting ones in this chapter!
From Catelyn:
From Luwin:
It's possible that Luwin worried what Ned might reveal to Jon or what Jon might ask of Ned. And we really don't know if Luwin was there, after all. We only know that he wanted to be but Ned declined, but when it came to the moment, who knows what went down.
I never thought about all the interupptions here, but wow. Who the heck is the Lord of Winterfell? Poor Ned, he was foiled by Cat and Luwin at every turn.
From Jon I:
Well, Ned certainly seems to want to establish a large family, and I would think he would welcome children of Benjen's too. Probably, Benjen wished to join the Nights Watch, but something about the way Cat manipulated Ned into sending Jon to the wall makes me think that she (and Luwin) could have manipulated Ned about Benjen too. There is no doubt that Cat would have worried about any children of Benjen's possibly challenging her own childrens inheritance of Winterfell, just as she does with Jon. I think there are subtle mirrors all over in the text, and I think this is one we see now that can tell us about something that probably happened in the past. I don't think this is the first time Cat and Luwin worked Ned to send someone to the wall.
Oooh, didn't make that connection! It could very much be a repeating scenario, with Benjen wanting to go, Ned not so sure, and Cat & Luwin making their strike! Oh, why did you take her into your huse, Ned?
I can't shake the idea that Luwin and Cat pulled the same thing on Benjen as they did for Jon. From the first time I read the book, it seemed odd to me. We get Benjen giving Catelyn a look at the head table when discussing it was her will that separated Jon from a table with his brothers, and in the next chapter we get "the manipulation of Ned" by Cat and Luwin. That is tinfoil I can't, and don't want to, shake!
It's really not tinfoily at all! I never got the impression that Ben and Cat were very friendly, even if we have very little information. Still, it would be odd for Ben to go to Luwin with Jon's request if this were the case!
So, is the question if he did at all? Or could Luwin have gotten that information from someone else?
Luwin could definitely have spies about Winterfell, they could be watching Jon or Benjen, they could have been sitting at that very table at the feast with Jon and Benjen. It's an interesting thought. For some reason I think that Benjen might have told Luwin, but in a way that Benjen hoped that Luwin would dissuade Jon from wanting to go to the Wall, at least not for a couple more years. It's all a gut feeling, but I think that Benjen didn't trust Catelyn but he might have trusted Luwin.
Or he overheard them talking later on? I guess if Ben didn't know Luwins potential part in himself getting to the Wall and he himself wanted it at the time, he would go to Luwin. And make it clear that Jon was far from mature enough at this time. Luwin of course is more loyal to Catelyn than to the Starks... That's how I see him anyway.
He is an interesting character, that is for sure. I see him as more loyal to the Citadel than any one person, but it seems like he does come to Winterfell with Catelyn (based on him delivering all of her children), and we see him working with Catelyn in the manipulation of Ned about sending Jon to the wall.
However, I am reminded a bit of how Kevan Lannister worried about what Cersei was capable of when she was crossed or worried about something, and I wonder if Luwin has some insight about Cat (and maybe Lysa) that told him that it might be safer for Jon to be removed from Winterfell. If Ned was all that was keeping Jon safe from Cat's wrath, then Ned leaving Jon at Winterfell with Catelyn might not be safe, and maybe Luwin knew that. Maybe Luwin was very subtly trying to tell Ned this (Jon away from Catelyn) was the best way to keep Jon safe? I just can't decide about him, we don't know a lot, and he is as grey as any other character in this story. As a matter of fact, in description, everything about him is grey, his hair, his robes, his eyes. I think he rode the middle ground in Winterfell and tried to keep the peace. I think he loved those children that were raised there, even Theon!
Good point! I'm sure he knew much and more of Catelyn's nature. I've been more or less certain for quite some time that without Ned and Ice, Jon would be anything but safe in Catelyn's presence. Harsh maybe, but still my view. It's just that the Wall being the solution that rankles me a bit, as he could easily been sent to another house in the north. Umbers for example if distance was of importance.
As you say, 'til hard to pin down that grey man! With the exeption of the love he shows at least the five trueborn children and Theon. Making myself some wigglingroom as we have no interaction with him and Jon, but not counting out the possibility of him also caring about Jon in the same way. Just as Cressen loved the Baratheon kids! Mayhaps that is a rather common byeffect of not having children of your own, but being surrounded by the kids to the lords they serve.
We don't have Luwin's POV like we had with Cressen, but still, Jon thinks of what Luwin taught him on a couple occasions, and Jon never seems to feel in his head that Luwin treated him any different than he treated the other Stark children. I do think Luwin might have planted idea's in Jon's head about the Night's Watch, and opportunity for a bastard, just as Luwin told Jon that bastards grow up faster than other children. Honestly, maybe Luwin felt like the best chance Jon had to succeed in life was at the Wall. Maybe Luwin is of bastard birth, himself? I mean, Luwin has also joined a lifelong order (unless we consider Qyburn getting his Maester's chain taken from him), and probably at a young age, that doesn't allow him to marry or have children, and he might have felt like there were worse fates for Jon than the Wall, or any other lifelong order, such as the kingsguard. Death, for instance!
I still think that Luwin might have connived with Cat for Benjen to go to the wall, and that is why it all worked so smoothly when Cat and Luwin convinced Ned that was the best option for Jon. That doesn't mean he didn't care for Benjen as a person, and it doesn't mean that he doesn't care for Jon. I don't think that Waymar Royce's family didn't care for him and that is why he went to the wall. People and their deeds are very complicated in this story. It's one of the reason I am so enamored with the story!
From Bran II:
Indeed, methinks Cat and Luwin were in cahoots in the notion of getting Ned to KL and Jon to the Wall.
Luwin the rat! On one side he seems sweet enough, but he has some really shady sides as well!
I have always thought so to, for the most part. And I have really wondered if Luwin and Cat didn't perform this action before, by getting Benjen out of Winterfell and to the wall was another way Cat was trying to make sure there were no Stark heir's but her own.
It's a weird thing. I am likely to believe that Ned was manipulated by people he trusted. But if this scene with Cat happens the same night as the feast at Winterfell, then did Benjen have much time to talk to Luwin about it? And Benjen act's very weird. He first encourages Jon that the wall needs people like Jon, then when Jon seems interested, Benjen does a little jig backwards and tries to convince Jon he is too young and needs a few bastards first. It's really odd!
It's Luwin that is the invader in this situation between Ned and Cat. Each time he tries to leave, they ask him to stay, but is that a ploy on his part? It's Luwin that brings up Jon and the wall. Cat almost seems as surprised as Ned does, but she hadn't given Jon a thought before this. Maybe Luwin is the major manipulator here, and he is playing both Cat and Ned. As Barbrey tells us about the Maesters, we really don't know where they come from and what agenda they might have. Luwin has grey eyes! Who is his family? How long was he a maester before he came to Winterfell and was he a maester at some other castle first. He is an older man with grey hair, but his chain is tight around his neck, so not terribly long. We are never told how many links he forged, or what all of them are for. It seems like he delivered Robb and that must have been at Riverrun, but how did he get an appointment from Riverrun and then to Winterfell? He claims the CotF are gone, that Old Nan's tales are just stories, but at the time of his death, he chooses to pull his dying body to the weirwood in the godswood. It is his idea, I think, more than Osha's, for her to kill him. He was determined to die in front of that tree, she just hurried the process. Luwin is a great mystery.
From Salty trout, non-repetitive point:
I consider it a possibility. Luwin napping would be a great parallel Stannis's maester napping the the first chapter of book 2. There are certain hints but really no smoking gun.
Please feel free to add what you want, including other maesters, to make a fuller picture! All quotes are in the order they are posted in the threads. There will be some overlap here with the same points made several times, but I'll include them non the less.
From 1.6 Catelyn:
Cat has every reason for wanting Jon, and Benjen, gone from Winterfell, and in a way that eliminates them, or any children of their bodies, from the succession.
I can't decide if I think that Luwin was in on the plan to further Catelyn's wishes, or if he might have had ulterior motives. I have wondered if Luwin might not have suspected that Jon might not be safe at Winterfell with Ned gone and the castle under Catelyn's control, and that the wall might have been a safe place for Jon. It's possible that he could have felt this way about Benjen, too. It just seems like a parallel we are being shown in this generation that could have happened in the last.
Of course, Jon's Night's Watch vows are problematic, but Robb felt like they could be gotten around, and maybe others in the north agree.
Did Luwin want to prevent any talk of Jon's mother? Maybe he (and/or Cat suspect this would come up as a counterpoint for Jon joining?) Or hear what might be said of this?
Maybe we should make a blood sacrifice to Martin so he writes this and holds on to it until his death, so it would be released after his death if he doesn't finish the books?
I'd also love to see those! Or mayhaps the scene with Ned and Jon in the show with the imfamous "We'll talk the next time we see eachother" was Martin's work to give us a hint of the last one. From Catelyn:
"Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven," Ned said. "And Joffrey … Joffrey is …"
She finished for him. "… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon."
She finished for him. "… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon."
"Maester Luwin—" Ned began.
"Maester Luwin has delivered all my children," Catelyn said. "This is no time for false modesty." She slid the paper in among the kindling and placed the heavier logs on top of it.
"Maester Luwin has delivered all my children," Catelyn said. "This is no time for false modesty." She slid the paper in among the kindling and placed the heavier logs on top of it.
"He and Robb are close," Ned said. "I had hoped …"
"He cannot stay here," Catelyn said, cutting him off. "He is your son, not mine. I will not have him." It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.
"He cannot stay here," Catelyn said, cutting him off. "He is your son, not mine. I will not have him." It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.
From Luwin:
"And none of them has ever been seen at court!" Ned blazed. "The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—"
His fury was on him. He might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in. "Another solution presents itself," he said, his voice quiet. "Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black."
His fury was on him. He might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in. "Another solution presents itself," he said, his voice quiet. "Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black."
"And even a bastard may rise high in the Night's Watch," Ned reflected. Still, his voice was troubled. "Jon is so young. If he asked this when he was a man grown, that would be one thing, but a boy of fourteen …"
"A hard sacrifice," Maester Luwin agreed. "Yet these are hard times, my lord. His road is no crueler than yours or your lady's."
"A hard sacrifice," Maester Luwin agreed. "Yet these are hard times, my lord. His road is no crueler than yours or your lady's."
From Jon I:
So, is the question if he did at all? Or could Luwin have gotten that information from someone else?
However, I am reminded a bit of how Kevan Lannister worried about what Cersei was capable of when she was crossed or worried about something, and I wonder if Luwin has some insight about Cat (and maybe Lysa) that told him that it might be safer for Jon to be removed from Winterfell. If Ned was all that was keeping Jon safe from Cat's wrath, then Ned leaving Jon at Winterfell with Catelyn might not be safe, and maybe Luwin knew that. Maybe Luwin was very subtly trying to tell Ned this (Jon away from Catelyn) was the best way to keep Jon safe? I just can't decide about him, we don't know a lot, and he is as grey as any other character in this story. As a matter of fact, in description, everything about him is grey, his hair, his robes, his eyes. I think he rode the middle ground in Winterfell and tried to keep the peace. I think he loved those children that were raised there, even Theon!
As you say, 'til hard to pin down that grey man! With the exeption of the love he shows at least the five trueborn children and Theon. Making myself some wigglingroom as we have no interaction with him and Jon, but not counting out the possibility of him also caring about Jon in the same way. Just as Cressen loved the Baratheon kids! Mayhaps that is a rather common byeffect of not having children of your own, but being surrounded by the kids to the lords they serve.
I still think that Luwin might have connived with Cat for Benjen to go to the wall, and that is why it all worked so smoothly when Cat and Luwin convinced Ned that was the best option for Jon. That doesn't mean he didn't care for Benjen as a person, and it doesn't mean that he doesn't care for Jon. I don't think that Waymar Royce's family didn't care for him and that is why he went to the wall. People and their deeds are very complicated in this story. It's one of the reason I am so enamored with the story!
From Bran II:
From Salty trout, non-repetitive point:
Finally got around to it! It's been nagging me for weeks!
