1.11 Daenerys II

I really like this idea! I had not ever considered it before, but if the eggs were in the manse with her that night, possibly this is what awakened her dragon dreams! And then I don't have to think about Dany being violated by Viserys or Illyrio! But for how many days or weeks had Dany and Viserys already been living in Drogo's manse? Did Illyrio have just one of the eggs brought to the manse that night, or were they all there. If it was the proximity of the eggs that started this for Dany, then the eggs could only have been there that night, otherwise her dreams should have started before. This idea of the eggs starting Dany's dragon journey is very tempting!

I can't really find anything on quick text search right now that indicates to me that Illyrio moves more gracefully than he should, but I will keep looking. Or I just made it up in my head!

Yes, it's a title like Prince or Princess of Wales. And what is interesting, is in british history, after what England viewed as the defeat of Wales, they took that title from the Welsh as their own. Edward the first gave this title Prince of Wales to his son Edward, the heir apparent, both as a right of conquest but also as a sign that Wales was now joined with England, it was a unification of two countries. But not all heir's to the throne are granted this title, which is interesting. Most are, however. I would think, that Robert would be happy to grab on to this title, and hang it on his son and heir Joffrey. After all, Robert is sitting on the throne that the Targaryen's built and living in the castle that the Targaryen's built and is king of the country that the Targaryen's unified, so I don't understand why this title was not invested to Robert's heir. This might have helped unify Robert's realm, between rebel and loyalist families.

Then I would think that he would create some new title for his heir, the Prince of Storms, or Prince of Storm's End, or something related to Robert's family name. It just seems a bit odd to me.

I don't think I can, honestly. Just brainstorming with the text and trying to make connections. The only marriage we know that Robert had for certain is a marriage to Cersei. Now, I can't even begin to imagine that Dany could be a child of this marriage, but we do know according to Cersei's confession to Ned, that Robert did get her pregnant once, but she ended that pregnancy.

So, if we are interpreting Maggy the Frog's prophecy correctly, then Cersei will have only three children. This could also be interpreted (I admit I am reaching here) as only having three bastards, compared to Robert's sixteen. So, could that mean that Cersei could have one trueborn child that isn't involved in Maggy's count? She tells us that she was "cleansed" and that Jaime helped her find a person to do this, but we are not told how pregnant she might have been. It would seem like not very, if Robert didn't know or notice, but I don't think he is terrible observant. And dresses could hide an advanced pregnancy. Still, the odds that a child could have survived from a late term abortion are hard to imagine, but it does happen in our world, and could happen in this world that GRRM has built.

This is so cracked pot, I am almost embarrassed, but I tend to compare Ned and Jaime a lot. We know that Ned doesn't believe in killing children, and he goes out of his way to defend children. One of the first things we know of Jaime is that he pushed Bran from that tower, in an attempt to kill him. But Ned himself questions what he would do if it was to save one of his own children, which is what Jaime was arguably doing when he pushed Bran, and Ned never gives us an answer. Ned might be just as capable as Jaime of this deed in the heat of the moment.

So, in reverse of this, maybe Jaime, faced with a decision with Cersei and Robert's aborted child, gave it a chance to live? The child would have to be closer to term than not, but in the hands of the right person, that child could survive and flourish. Could Jaime's nature have allowed a child of Cersei and Robert to live?

Another option, depending on how advanced this pregnancy was, was for Varys, the Master of Whisper's to get his hand on this child, and eventually get her to the hands of Illyiro.

People have speculated on who the younger, more beautiful queen that will surplant Cersei is, and there are several candidates, like Dany, Sansa, Margaery who have been considered, and even Myrcella has been an option. How would Cersei react if the queen that takes her position is her own daughter. What if that daughter is Dany! 

One thing that has always struck me in the description of both Tyrion and Tommen, is that they have almost white-blond hair, and their hair doesn't curl like Jaime or Cersei or Joffrey or Myrcella. It's different, subtle but different. Now, this could be a Targaryen connection if Tyrion or Cersei/Jaime turn out to be Aerys's bastards. And even if they are not of Targaryen blood, this could simply be a different shade and texture of Lannister blond, but that could be a link to Dany's hair color.

Or Robert could have another marriage that we don't know about. to the extreme!!! I am going to stop for now, but it's like giving up coffee!

It is that obvious. That is why I am inclined to think it has to be a red herring! And maybe the marriage that messed things up in Westeros didn't belong to either Rhaegar or Lyanna, let alone to each other. That still leaves us with plenty of candidates. Ned, Brandon, Robert, Ashara, Arthur to name a few who played a roll in the rebellion.

Maybe the wings are the key. I think the reader assumes that this could involve dragon-like wings, because the dragon imagery is so huge in this story, but maybe the winged wolf does have feathered wings. That would be overlooked, I would think. And I come back to Sansa, then, who has a connection to the vale, and the falcon is a symbol of the Arryn's, and I think imagery in the vale before the Arryn's became the greatest house in the vale.

I am probably crazy, but I always felt like this was a poor idea. Fire and Ice don't combine well, and I think you would be left with some scorched and muddy earth. Not promising. I always felt like that fact that this union of Wolf and Dragon, Ice and Fire, was a very bad thing. Can't explain why, it just feels wrong.

I don't know if the Starks are really wiped out. I have been wondering for a while about the Stark's and the practice they might have had for children and marriage. We hear of female Stark's being married off, but not much about the males. I have been wondering if it was normal practice in the Stark line for only the heir to marry and produce children, at least legitimate children. We hear of tons of Lannister cousins, Baratheon cousins, the Frey's are coming out of the wood work like termites, but very few Stark relations. And I think that is on purpose. There can be no challenge for Winterfell if there are not a million cousins running around. It was something that Catelyn feared, but maybe her fears were unfounded.

Ned talks to Bran about holding a castle for Robb some day, but there is no talk of him being a father or having children of his own. Maybe those second sons never are mean to have children of their own, so as not to create a dynastic struggle for the north. We hear of a few Stark son's at one time or another of holding the Wolf's Den, and we know the Karstark's are an offshoot of the Stark line, but this almost seems unusual. There was also the Greystark's, but they are extinguished now, thanks to them siding with the Bolton's in a war. I wonder that Bran or Rickon was ever expected to marry.

I think this applies to Ned and Benjen as well. Both Brandon and Lyanna were betrothed at pretty young ages, long before they were to be wed, but nothing for Ned or Benjen. If Rickard was truly trying to set up powerful alliances by marriage, then why not have Ned at least betrothed by the time he was 18, and Benjen could have been betrothed as early as 12 to 14, also. I just question that the Stark's ever practiced much marriage in son's who were not heirs. One exception I have noted is in Artos Stark, who was never lord, but did marry and have twins. Was this right to marry granted because it was he who avenged his brother's death at Long Lake. There were a couple other Stark marriages, uncles to neices, but I think that might have been related to a case of Stark dynastic struggle. The family tree could just be very incomplete, but it's very odd that there are not a bunch of Stark cousins coming out of the woodwork like many of the other great houses.

I will have to respond to your other post a bit later. But hopefully by tonight.

To the first: fire and ice! It’s red and silver, no?

To the second: interesting about those Trag /Blackfyre sigils. Red on Black was the original so black on red taken by the Blackfyre faction was a sign of rebellion and opposition. I wish I could remember anything about the Targ sigil but right now I got a lapse the size of the Valyrian religion. All I know is the names of the gods. Kind of like the colors of the seal...

It is interesting. Robert and Rhaegar were the son's of first cousins, I believe. That is a pretty close connection. Maybe no one wanted to hang that title on the man who just waged a war to win a crown, but the connection is pretty obvious. Rickard Karstark called Robb a kinslayer for planning to have him executed, and that connection must be much further back, many centuries, I would think. I see a few Stark/Karstark marriages in the Stark lineage, but none of them directly link to Rickard's line.

For the Baratheon line, I am thinking both of Robert's grandmother being the sister of Jaehaerys II, as well as Aegon the Conqueror's half-brother Orys Baratheon. As far as millenia ago, I have no idea as far as the Baratheon connection goes. And who knows who Orys Baratheon's mother was? She is not named anywhere, but she might have belonged to a great family. This connection of Orys being Aerion Targaryen's bastard is a well known rumor, but there is no confirmation that I can find. Orys was said to be the best friend of Aegon the Conqueror. Maybe Orys never had any Targaryen blood, but Robert's grandmother was still a Targaryen princess and no one seems to dispute that connection.

Twins are certainly a possibility, and have been vastly speculated on since Alfie Allen made a comment on how GRRM's story mirrored Star Wars. That was interpreted to mean twins. I don't know if there was much twin talk in the fandom before that, but we have an obvious set of twins in Jaime and Cersei, and I don't see why that would not be echoed is this next generation.

This sounds very interesting. I will have to try to find this theory and check it out. I am more convinced all the time that the Bloodraven/Bittersteel feud goes back much further than even the Blackwood/Bracken feud. Maybe it does go back to the Pact!

No, if this was the case, I don't see why it would ever be confirmed.

Robert did have more bell imagery than I had thought too. I was really surprised at how many people remember the bells ringing in Kings Landing for Robert's death. It just seemed to connect to me with Dany and the care she showed Drogo in death and to all of his bells that she placed back in his braid, and how she remembers Drogo's bells.

I love to speculate on them. I think some of those bastards of Robert are going to be very important to the end game. The Maggy the Frog prophecy gives us the number 16 in relation to "the kings" children, and I wonder if they are all bastards or if there could have been a true born child. And what do those 16 children mean? We are given that number for a reason, I think. It's not just to prove to us that Robert is promiscuous. I have a lot of tinfoil about those bastards, and some people that play important roles who I think could be some of Robert's seed.

Well, we all interpret things differently, and one of those things is color. Is turquoise blue or green? Is fuschia purple or red or pink? Is amber yellow or orange? Is indigo blue or purple? What Dany interprets as indigo might be interpreted as purple by JonCon and blue by someone else. It could very well be the very same eye color but described differently in the eye of the beholder!

Well, a family that has star written all over their name is Stark. They might be the most overlooked connection to Star's in this story!

I think the egg given to each child is for bonding purposes. I think it takes something else, or someone else, to hatch a dragon egg. Dany seems to have the key to hatching eggs, but is she bonded to all three of her dragons? Is it possible to bond to more than one dragon? Her connection seems to be to Drogon, and I have heard speculation that the black and red egg might have been Rhaegar's cradle egg, but I don't know that we will ever know that for sure.

Well, Dany has a strong bond with those eggs (maybe just the black egg) so I am inclined to think if it was the egg that woke her dragon dreams, then that night was the first night she was around that egg.

The rape possibility is still there, but there are reports of Targeryen children having dragon dreams or feeling connected to their eggs long before they are sexually active.

Still, as discussed previously about Mel and Stannis and his seeming weakened condition and dwindling "fire" after she grew some shadowbabies, it isn't Drogo we see whom seems weaker after Dany is pregnant, it is Viserys, so maybe that could be a hint that he was the father of her unborn child!

It makes sense that Robert was very conflicted about his Targaryen background. He hated Rhaegar for what he did (perceived or real) to Lyanna, and from his conversation with Ned about Aerys, he was willing to kill Aerys if he needed to. Maybe he was thankful that Jaime took that possible burden away from him. Killing Rhaegar pushed his luck, but to kill another family member might have been more kinslaying than the realm would forgive.

Well, one of the things that Robert seemed to enjoy about being king was the pageantry of the position, and so having great titles for yourself or your heir would seem to fit the idea of the image of being a king. Dany sure has a list of titles and there is some pageantry to her reign.

Well, actually, I think Dany's age as given fits okay with this idea. Dany is thirteen at the beginning of our story. If she is older or younger, it's not more that 6 months from her actual birth date, much like Jon's situation. He isn't 16 while Robb is 14 and Dany isn't 15 when she is supposed to be 13. At least I don't think so.

So, Robert and Cersei are married somewhere in the 14 year range. After the rebellion ended, which is roughly 14 years ago, but could be closer to 15, depending on the time line. Joffrey is 12 years old at the beginning of the story, and I don't think he turns 13 until the beginning of Clash. Dany would be 14 at this time, going on 15. She reports her age as 14 in her first Clash chapter and 15 in her second Clash chapter. Maybe this is a mistake or maybe she had a name day while wandering around. Any way, that would give plenty of time for Cersei to have carried one child, birthed it, and became pregnant again. If Robert and Cersei conceived the child she reports was "cleansed" from her early in their marriage, with is around 14 years ago, I think she could be the mother of a child who was 13 at the beginning of the story. It almost fits too well, as I think about it.

I have also seen speculation that Robert and Cersei were lovers before they were married. Possibly, this was used to manipulate Robert and eventually make it almost impossible for him not to marry her. I have no horse in this race, but it very much fit's Cersei's known behaviors of using sex for manipulation. And I think Robert could easily be manipulated with sex.

And Dany has some lion imagery in her story arch. It is mostly the pelt of her white lion that Drogo gave to her, but she wears it often, seems to drawn strength from it and sometimes shields herself with it.

Actually, I think Winterfell itself has dragon imagery, just by the First Keep having gargoyles on it. And Winterfell is a place of the Starks, built by Brandon "the Builder" Stark. If he started the building process, he might have built the First Keep with those gargoyles on it. I think the Stark's might have dragon blood from millenia ago, long before they adapted to being wargs, which was probably after intermarriage with the Warg King's daughters.

The gargoyles are something we see in only one other place, and that is on Dragonstone. The castle has multiple gargoyles and Cressen has come to think of them as his friends, and then in the port of Dragonstone, there is a gargoyle outside of an inn that Davos touches the head of for good luck. I think that hints at a possible dragon connection for Davos, as well.

I think it's very, very odd that there is not one living person with the name of Stark in this story that doesn't seem to come from Rickard's line. I think the Stark's added to their lineage very carefully. I had just recently read a book about how in Venice in the 17th century, there were very strict restrictions placed on families on who they could chose to be their heir, who could marry, and have children. This privilege was granted by the city-state/government, and if you were not selected to marry, it was illegal to marry and produce legitimate children. It was to help keep the number of dependents managable, so as not to be a drain on family money and resources. It got me thinking about the Starks, and also other houses in the north. When Lord Hornwood and his heir die, there is no vast trove of cousins to chose from. We see this with the Stark family. Roose Bolton has no other family, although everything about his case is weird. We have some Umber's, but only the Greatjon is married, and his uncles are not, almost like the Greatjon's father was the son who was allowed to marry and produce children.  Jeor Mormont was married and had Jorah, but he never had an heir, leaving Bear Island to a woman, who is not married, who has several daughters, who also seem not to be married. I think there is some pattern that we haven't been told about yet. Even when I think of Robb's honor guard, most of them are son's of lords, not cousins twice removed.

Maybe this is a tradition of the north, to allow only the heir to marry and produce children. It would certainly give rise to many bastards, because one would think all those other men might still be having children out of wedlock, but at the Wall, the castle Queensgate, used to be known as Snowgate. There is a lot of speculation about the reason for the name, but it certainly seems like a place bastards of the north might have been sent to at one point. Oh, Alysanne, you came along and changed a lot for the north, you and your proclamations and your dragon Silverwing.

In the Stark lineage, there are a few Stark son's that were not Lord's who did marry and produce children, but it really isn't very many at all. I think it is more purposeful than accidental, but I could be very off base. Maybe something has been limiting the Stark's breeding capability. Maybe they have spent to much time marrying outside the family! 

No description except for the initial one. I think she is described as thin while they are wandering around the red waste, but I don't think there is a color description.

Yes, to the idea of a Targaryen archtype dragon. I don't believe that the Targaryen family was particularly important or wealthy in Valyria, and at one point, they might have had only one dragon to their name. I would guess it was a red dragon, just based on their sigil, but that might not be how imagery worked in Valyria. But if this dragon's blood is a part of the blood of all the Targareyn dragons that have come after, then maybe that connection is still alive in both the dragons and the people of dragon blood, the dragon binders, the dragon riders. Blood of the dragon as well as blood of the family would be very important. Which again explains why inbreeding was so important to the Targaryen family. It was not only how they controlled dragons, but maybe how they communicated with THE DRAGON, the very first which all other dragons in their family came from.

While I think the idea of getting the Dothraki from Essos to Westeros would be a huge coups for Illyrio, I don't see the benefit to Varys. Unless Varys is planning to leave Westeros. And I can't imagine that every person of Dothraki culture would go to Westeros following Drogo, so it would still leave some in Essos. But certainly not the huge numbers that we see at the beginning of the story. It's an interesting theory, but if it happening, they Illyrio is playing a long and slow game!

Preston Jacobs has a video series about the genetics of dragon riding and dragon hatching. It's pretty interesting. I have no idea if he is correct, but he certainly put a lot of thought into the concept. And it has made me think a lot more on just what was going on with Dany when she hatched those dragons, as it seems she was responsible. I just think it would be beautifully ironic if it was never Dany, and always Mirri, who was the mother of dragons!

How does this work with the wild dragons. No one is tucking those eggs into satin sheets with a Targaryen baby. Maybe it's the place. Maybe the Targaryen's would have done better to stay in Dragonstone if they wanted their dragon's to flourish.

You'll find the part about horses here. It's not a very detailed part of his take on the Winterfell situation at the end of Dance, but what he speculates is interesting!

The rest, I'll have to tackle tomorrow!

Thanks for the link. After checking it out, I recognized the Winterfell Hois Clos and realized I had read some of these. But not all of them. There is a whole lot of theory and thought process going on in those links. As you say, very detailed!

Kinslayer, unless you are killing a sibling, is something that is applied when you want an accusation. Genealogies are sufficiently complicated that most lords are probably kin to most other lords. And most subjects (at least through a bastard line) are kin to their lord. An objective person would argue that Robert can't have it both ways, claiming descent from the Targs but denying being a kinslayer, but there is no such thing as an objective person

I don't think it was a private conversation. If it was, I'm not very good at private conversation since i disappear for days at a time. Your input is always appreciated

Looked at this way, the horses are negatives of each other. Not sure what that means, but interesting



If an aborted child who survived doesn't count, that echoes Shakespeare's Macbeth. According to prophecy, no many born of a woman could kill Macbeth, who was ultimately killed by a man who 'was from his mother's womb untimely ripped.' I always thought Shakespeare cheated on this prophecy, but there it is
OTOH, it is not that unusual to speak of the children of a married couple as her 3, his 16, and their 1. I really don't think Dany is Cersei's or Robert's, although there would be rich irony if she was Robert's

It could be an unstable and volatile alliance, but such alliances are probably better than no alliance at all





The absence of Starks from any other line than Rickard has bothered me, but I haven't come up with an explanation that I like. I like this. In a climate with limited resources, it may be best to limit the number of hungry mouths. But, you do have the problem that, in a dangerous environment, putting all eggs in one basket could lead to the extinction of the line.
Your theory could lead to strong Stark support for the NW. Sending sons to join the Others is also a possibility.

At the end of his life, his condition is not natural. Obviously that is the work of MMD, but may be the end of a long process. If it is a parallel to Mel's work (and I think it is), it is probably not precisely the same
While not exactly a fantasy trope, it is worth considering the ancient belief that sex drains a man's energy. There is definitely a whif of misogyny there


Dany is the Mother of Dragons because she was there for their birth and she survived the fire. Titles like that are given meaning because they are believed. I think Dany was somehow a catalyst. But I suspect that MMD really did not hard work and died birthing them.
And Dany seems to believe that it is all her: she dreams things and they happen; she makes decisions and does things; she has a mystical knowledge. She lacks any insight that she is being manipulated. She thinks she is the powerful one. She may just be a tool

Star Wars mirrored Joseph Campbell's 'Hero's Journey'. Most (or all) of the stages of the Hero's Journey are fantasy tropes. So both are drawing from the same material, one to exploit it, the other to subvert it. Twins are a possibility, but I don't think looking to Star Wars for our model is very helpful


Her dreams may be connected with sex because the puppetmaster need her to have sex or to reproduce or to bond with particular people

Another way that she is an opposite of Jon


I'm not sure this ties dragons to gargoyles, unless there is a Winterfell dragon. But it does seem to tie Starks with Targs.

This type of sigil seems to be a Westerosi thing, so was probably adopted after the migration. It is very interesting to think that it may evoke fire and ice itself. Those Dragonstone gargoyles are old, and certainly would pre-date the Stark-Targ alliance associated with the king who knelt
Any way you look at it, Winterfell has fire in it as early as the first Kat chapter. Maybe there is some ice in the Targs as well