1.13 Tyrion

Nyx
Theon Greyjoy

Fighting ALL the battles, in my mind. Always! Of course.

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1.13 Tyrion Nov 29, 2017 3:45:28 GMT Wraith, arrysfleas, and 2 more like this

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Post by Nyx on Nov 29, 2017 3:45:28 GMT

Or: "Comprehensive nihilistic view of the world in 4 words: #ThereAreNoDragons" by Tyrion Lannister.

I found the description of Tyrion fascination with dragons, the conversation between Jon and Tyrion as to why he loves reading and what it means to him and its conclusion "there are no dragons" a perfectly rounded nutshell development from childhood to what the Imp is at the moment we are reading this. I can't stress enough how well I find his chapters written. It makes sense these are the ones Martin likes to write the most.

Ironically, Tyrion reads Jon's features as a "Stark by way of the father". I think Martin has perfected the art of misleading and gave every other character a chance to weigh in how much Jon resembles his dad, Ned. At one point it just looks suspicious.

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”

arrysfleas
Grey Wind

Posts: 1,094

1.13 Tyrion Nov 29, 2017 4:10:47 GMT Wraith, Nyx, and 2 more like this

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Post by arrysfleas on Nov 29, 2017 4:10:47 GMT

Nov 29, 2017 3:38:39 GMT Nyx said:

Ironically, Tyrion reads Jon's features as a "Stark by way of the father". I think Martin has perfected the art of misleading and gave every other character a chance to weigh in how much Jon resembles his dad, Ned. At one point it just looks suspicious.

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

interesting passage. It nearly feels like the author is telling us that we need not agonise over Jon's mother. The only thing that matters is that Jon is a Stark, after all.

"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."

Nyx
Theon Greyjoy

Fighting ALL the battles, in my mind. Always! Of course.

Posts: 424

1.13 Tyrion Nov 30, 2017 2:16:20 GMT via Tapatalk arrysfleas likes this

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Post by Nyx on Nov 30, 2017 2:16:20 GMT

Nov 29, 2017 4:10:47 GMT arrysfleas said:

interesting passage. It nearly feels like the author is telling us that we need not agonise over Jon's mother. The only thing that matters is that Jon is a Stark, after all.

I am a fan of Jon’s parentage never being revealed. If Tyrion’s opinion turns out to be the only one that truly matters it would not be the end of the world as far as I’m concerned. But I also think if the Jon/Dany OTP ship sails in the books as well, it will be hard not to matter if the mom is Lyanna and Rhaegar his dad.

“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”

shymaid
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1.13 Tyrion Jan 5, 2018 14:48:11 GMT arrysfleas, danl, and 1 more like this

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Post by shymaid on Jan 5, 2018 14:48:11 GMT

Ok, finally got to this chapter as well! My toughts are a bit scattered and it will show in this post, but here are the things I really noticed.

West of the road were flint hills, grey and rugged, with tall watchtowers on their stony summits. To the east the land was lower, the ground flattening to a rolling plain that stretched away as far as the eye could see. Stone bridges spanned swift, narrow rivers, while small farms spread in rings around holdfasts walled in wood and stone. The road was well trafficked, and at night for their comfort there were rude inns to be found.

This made me think of the borderlands between Dorne and the Reach/Stormlands, almost like the map has been turned 90 degrees. Not really sure what to make of it, but there it is.

Tyrion noticed Jon Snow watching Yoren and his sullen companions, with an odd cast to his face that looked uncomfortably like dismay. Yoren had a twisted shoulder and a sour smell, his hair and beard were matted and greasy and full of lice, his clothing old, patched, and seldom washed. His two young recruits smelled even worse, and seemed as stupid as they were cruel.
No doubt the boy had made the mistake of thinking that the Night's Watch was made up of men like his uncle. If so, Yoren and his companions were a rude awakening. Tyrion felt sorry for the boy. He had chosen a hard life … or perhaps he should say that a hard life had been chosen for him.

An interesting observation of Tyrion here! I can't recall off the top of my head if we get any other POVs of Jon choosing the Wall or having it chosen for him, but here is one that caught on to the fact that he was sent there. Yes, he expressed interest, but if not for Catelyn and Luwin he'd probably make the choice at a later stage.

In other threads the question of Ned's conversation with Jon about going to the Wall has been raised, and we don't get an answer to this here. But we do get an incling with this passage:

"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow. "Well, no doubt the Starks have been terribly good to you. I'm certain Lady Stark treats you as if you were one of her own. And your brother Robb, he's always been kind, and why not? He gets Winterfell and you get the Wall. And your father … he must have good reasons for packing you off to the Night's Watch …"
"Stop it," Jon Snow said, his face dark with anger. "The Night's Watch is a noble calling!"
Tyrion laughed. "You're too smart to believe that. The Night's Watch is a midden heap for all the misfits of the realm. I've seen you looking at Yoren and his boys. Those are your new brothers, Jon Snow, how do you like them? Sullen peasants, debtors, poachers, rapers, thieves, and bastards like you all wind up on the Wall, watching for grumkins and snarks and all the other monsters your wet nurse warned you about. The good part is there are no grumkins or snarks, so it's scarcely dangerous work. The bad part is you freeze your balls off, but since you're not allowed to breed anyway, I don't suppose that matters."
"Stop it!" the boy screamed. He took a step forward, his hands coiling into fists, close to tears.

Now, just before this Tyrion brings up hurting familymembers who wrong you, and implies that Jon has dreamed of doing this as well; he then precedes to goad Jon with pointing out his outsider status in the family. But he also makes the point that it was Ned's decision to send Jon to the Wall. So did Ned frame it through Jon's own wish to go, or more close to the truth with Catelyn refusing to have him under her roof? Honestly, I think it's hard to say.
In Jon's second chapter he seems more at ease with going to the Wall, and that makes me think it was framed through his own wish, but here we see that he might have had a nagging feeling that he was no longer wanted at Winterfell. No suprise when it comes to his loving step-mother, but that Ned would pack him off might not have occured to him or he might not have let himself think this.
And again, the fact that no one bothered to tell him the truth about the Watch is a bit odd. But at the same time I find it odd that he had this idealized picture in the first place. Surely he'd seen more black brothers at Winterfell over the years? I guess this is a point we'll never get an answer to, and all in all it's not that important.

He had rather less sympathy for the uncle. Benjen Stark seemed to share his brother's distaste for Lannisters, and he had not been pleased when Tyrion had told him of his intentions. "I warn you, Lannister, you'll find no inns at the Wall," he had said, looking down on him.

Ned's dislike for the Lannisters aren't that big of a secret, but that Benjen shares it even after all these years at the Wall is to me a sign that it probably stems from something they did during RR, and that it's more than "just" killing Rhaegar's children and Jamie placing his buttocks at the Iron Throne. It makes me think they had something to do with what happened to Lyanna, in one way or another. Ben might share Ned's distaste for the murder of children and Jamie breaking his vow, but I'd still say something more has to lie behind these feelings.

He took a small revenge in the matter of his riding fur, a tattered bearskin, old and musty-smelling. Stark had offered it to him in an excess of Night's Watch gallantry, no doubt expecting him to graciously decline. Tyrion had accepted with a smile. He had brought his warmest clothing with him when they rode out of Winterfell, and soon discovered that it was nowhere near warm enough. It was cold up here, and growing colder. The nights were well below freezing now, and when the wind blew it was like a knife cutting right through his warmest woolens. By now Stark was no doubt regretting his chivalrous impulse. Perhaps he had learned a lesson. The Lannisters never declined, graciously or otherwise. The Lannisters took what was offered.

Alas, Tyrion, I doubt your revenge is big as you think - even if you think it small. Considering Ned's affinity towards the cold, seen with him standing naked before the open window in Cat II, I'd think Ben has the same thing going. And with him being a ranger who frequent the world beyond the Wall often, he knows cold more than Tyrion might realize at this moment.

Farms and holdfasts grew scarcer and smaller as they pressed northward, ever deeper into the darkness of the wolfswood, until finally there were no more roofs to shelter under, and they were thrown back on their own resources.

Interesting choice of words...

On to Tyrion and the dragonskulls:

He had expected to find them impressive, perhaps even frightening. He had not thought to find them beautiful. Yet they were. As black as onyx, polished smooth, so the bone seemed to shimmer in the light of his torch. They liked the fire, he sensed. He'd thrust the torch into the mouth of one of the larger skulls and made the shadows leap and dance on the wall behind him. The teeth were long, curving knives of black diamond. The flame of the torch was nothing to them; they had bathed in the heat of far greater fires. When he had moved away, Tyrion could have sworn that the beast's empty eye sockets had watched him go.

For some reason this makes me think of the blades of the Others in the prologue. Also, black diamond is an interesting choice of words, as it's seldom mentioned in the books. But I need to let that simmer for a bit.

There were nineteen skulls. The oldest was more than three thousand years old; the youngest a mere century and a half. The most recent were also the smallest; a matched pair no bigger than mastiff's skulls, and oddly misshapen, all that remained of the last two hatchlings born on Dragonstone. They were the last of the Targaryen dragons, perhaps the last dragons anywhere, and they had not lived very long.
From there the skulls ranged upward in size to the three great monsters of song and story, the dragons that Aegon Targaryen and his sisters had unleashed on the Seven Kingdoms of old. The singers had given them the names of gods: Balerion, Meraxes, Vhaghar. Tyrion had stood between their gaping jaws, wordless and awed. You could have ridden a horse down Vhaghar's gullet, although you would not have ridden it out again. Meraxes was even bigger. And the greatest of them, Balerion, the Black Dread, could have swallowed an aurochs whole, or even one of the hairy mammoths said to roam the cold wastes beyond the Port of Ibben.

Ok, I've briefly searched for the age of the oldest Targaryen dragons in another thread, and the oldest one was Balerion. But we never get his age. We know he was hatched in Valyria before the doom, and when he died. Nothing more. So the first bolded part really stood out to me on this read!
Is that skull Balerion's skull? Or did they bring the skull of an earlier dragon with them? We never hear about it if they did, as far as I know. But Balerion reaching an age of three thousand years... While dragons live for a long time, thousands of years seems a bit too long imo. So that made me think of stdaga 's speculations about the Targaryens first dragon, and the posibility that this was a red dragon that was later pictured in their sigil. Could that be the skull Tyrion is thinking of here?
Has anyone else noticed this before? Any thoughts? It really made my head spin for a moment!

"Why do you read so much?"
Tyrion looked up at the sound of the voice. Jon Snow was standing a few feet away, regarding him curiously. He closed the book on a finger and said, "Look at me and tell me what you see."
The boy looked at him suspiciously. "Is this some kind of trick? I see you. Tyrion Lannister."
Tyrion sighed. "You are remarkably polite for a bastard, Snow. What you see is a dwarf. You are what, twelve?"

I'm leaving out Tyrion's long answer here, as that didn't come into focus so much for me.
One conclution we can draw from this, and is strengthened in later chapters, is that Jon is not a bookish lad. So if he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, she didn't swallow some books and a candle while pregnant! On the contrary, Jon's interest, and talent, lies with the sword. We know that Rhaegar was good with a sword - he did manage to wound Robert at the Trident, but unlike Jon he didn't like it. And I will say Jon likes that dance. Other possible baby-daddies do, with Arthur as the foremost of these. (And Mance, if you want to include him as well)
The second thing I notice is Jon's tendency to take people as they are, and not make a big deal about it. Tyrion expects everyone to always think of him as a dwarf first, but here Jon doesn't do that. Also that Tyrion seem to think all bastards wear their grievances on their sleves, like he does.
The third thing, is the consideration in Tyrion's ability to guess peoples ages, which has come up before. This passage seems to show that his guesses are off, but rereading it this time I'm not so sure. Does Jon look that much younger than Robb? Does Robb look twelve? He just thought of seeing the dragonskulls, so is the timeline so far off from his mind? To me it seems like this was more of a sarcastic remark than anything serious, but that's not to say Tyrion is great at guessing ages. Or is right in all of his estimations.

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

And back to this passage. As arrysfleas mentions, Jon's mother might not be something to agonise over. What is clear is that Jon is a Stark by blood, which is true.
Still, I like the thought that Jon's Starkness comes from both parents, and the larger part of the fandom refusing to see it.

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son. "What are you reading about?" he asked.
"Dragons," Tyrion told him.
"What good is that? There are no more dragons," the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.
"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."
"You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

Firstly, what kind of dragondreams does Tyrion have? Is it the run-of-the-mill dragondreams I'm sure many a child in the Seven Kingdom has had? Is it daydreams? Or is it the Targaryen kind, that we see in several Targaryens? Or lastly, [spoilertag due to spoiling from sample chapters, for those who doesn't want to know anything from them. I'm feeling very kind today, you see.]

SPOILER: Click to show

is it the kind we see in the sample chapter from Winds, where it seems more like a greendream?

Secondly, to me it seems like Jon doesn't have dragondreams, though his suspicion as Tyrion noticed could be discussed in this direction. Any significant dreams that Jon has seems to focus on the Wall and Winterfell, so if having dragondreams is a clue to Targaryen blood, this is a point against this.

The argument that follows has already been mentioned, I'll just note the oddity that Tyrion manages to fall on his back AND get a mouth full of dirt and rotting leaves. Quite an accomplishment, I'd say!

"Come, we had better return to camp before your uncle calls the banners."

Just making a short note of this. Viserys wants to call his banners, Ned will make preparations to call his banners if needed a bit later in the book; another possible uncle is Stannis and Renly who both call their banners in a little while. The only possible uncle we don't hear calling his banners in the story is Arthur's older brother, who might still be alive at this time.

Almost at the end here; so I'll pick up that bear fur again, and lie that beside the following:

Benjen Stark emerged from the shelter he shared with his nephew. "There you are. Jon, damn it, don't go off like that by yourself. I thought the Others had gotten you."
"It was the grumkins," Tyrion told him, laughing. Jon Snow smiled. Stark shot a baffled look at Yoren. The old man grunted, shrugged, and went back to his bloody work.

So, could this be a clue to what happened to Ben? As a forshadowing it seems obvious, as many wonderes if Ben has been taken by the Others. But what is "being taken by the Others"? Is it merely wightification? If so, does this apply to the Starks as well, or does something else happen to them if meeting an Other?
But if it is a clue, does the grumkins come into play? Or the snarks? I'm actually being serious here! If this is the case, who or what is a grumkin and a snark?

Tyrion was the last to retire, as always. As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and looked back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames.
Tyrion Lannister smiled sadly and went to bed.

Here Jon reminds me of Stannis actually, and reminicent of the Rhollor practice of looking into the flames. So did he see anything?
And Tyrion brings Arthur to mind with his sad smile. But then, all sad smiles in the text makes me think of that man.

Last Edit: Jan 5, 2018 14:49:26 GMT by shymaid

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arrysfleas
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1.13 Tyrion Jan 5, 2018 22:17:37 GMT stdaga and shymaid like this

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Post by arrysfleas on Jan 5, 2018 22:17:37 GMT

Jan 5, 2018 20:40:08 GMT shymaid said:

I've seen you looking at Yoren and his boys. Those are your new brothers, Jon Snow, how do you like them? Sullen peasants, debtors, poachers, rapers, thieves, and bastards like you all wind up on the Wall,

Jan 5, 2018 20:40:08 GMT shymaid said:

And again, the fact that no one bothered to tell him the truth about the Watch is a bit odd. But at the same time I find it odd that he had this idealized picture in the first place. Surely he'd seen more black brothers at Winterfell over the years?

I think Tyrion's view of the Watch is somewhat one-sided. Jon does meet good people too at the Wall, people who become his friends, ie Pip, Grenn, Sam, Satin, Ed etc. And Yoren, although flee ridden, does take good care of Arya when her future looks bleak.
The author lures us into thinking that the world is black and white. But we get to know it is not so.

Jan 5, 2018 20:40:08 GMT shymaid said:

ever deeper into the darkness of the wolfswood,

the author is always keen to remind us that forests are 'dark' places. When we get to the Haunted Forest, we are repeatedly told that is it dark, to the point one wonders how anyone can see their way through it. Our author likes the dark, and this is reflected in Bran's chapters later on (and 20 years later in his refusal to tell us what is going on...).

Jan 5, 2018 22:00:57 GMT shymaid said:

And I will say Jon likes that dance. Other possible baby-daddies do, with Arthur as the foremost of these.

indeed! Jon the Warrior.

Jan 5, 2018 22:00:57 GMT shymaid said:

I thought the Others had gotten you."
"It was the grumkins," Tyrion told him, laughing. Jon Snow smiled. Stark shot a baffled look at Yoren. The old man grunted, shrugged, and went back to his bloody work.

So, could this be a clue to what happened to Ben? As a foreshadowing it seems obvious, as many wonderes if Ben has been taken by the Others. But what is "being taken by the Others"? Is it merely wightification? If so, does this apply to the Starks as well, or does something else happen to them if meeting an Other?

'the Others take you' is a common Westerosi curse, no doubt perpetuated by the singers and Old-Nans of this world.
But here, Ben may have just said it more than in jest. We already know that the Others (supposedly) took Waymar and Will. Benjen is well aware of the resurgence of the Others, so this is a show of Ben's edgy state of mind about this situation and perhaps also about taking Jon north with him.

Last Edit: Jan 5, 2018 22:20:34 GMT by arrysfleas

"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."

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1.13 Tyrion Jan 5, 2018 23:08:53 GMT arrysfleas likes this

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Post by shymaid on Jan 5, 2018 23:08:53 GMT

Jan 5, 2018 22:08:21 GMT arrysfleas said:

I think Tyrion's view of the Watch is somewhat one-sided. Jon does meet good people too at the Wall, people who become his friends, ie Pip, Grenn, Sam, Satin, Ed etc. And Yoren, although flee ridden, does take good care of Arya when her future looks bleak.
The author lures us into thinking that the world is black and white. But we get to know it is not so.

Well, we see both ends of this spectrum through Jon and Tyrion. Jon's all about the noble calling of the Watch, while Tyrion has grown up with rapists, murderers and other criminals being sent to the Wall. I find it easier to see Tyrion's perspective here, as the Wall is more like a prison colony now. It's Jon's view I find puzzeling. And I think both get a reality check when they get to Castle Black, even if Tyrion only stayed there for a little while (and forgot most of it when he was in King's Landing).

I will say that this chapter is a good insight into Tyrion's dark look on the world and the people in it, his chip on his shoulder comes out in several places.

Jan 5, 2018 22:08:21 GMT arrysfleas said:

the author is always keen to remind us that forests are 'dark' places. When we get to the Haunted Forest, we are repeatedly told that is it dark, to the point one wonders how anyone can see their way through it. Our author likes the dark, and this is reflected in Bran's chapters later on (and 20 years later in his refusal to tell us what is going on...).

Haha, just like the police in the closest city to where I live. A few years ago there were some armed robbers on the loose and they were suspected to hide in our area, which was natural to the police as we have lots of woods. And everybody knows the woods are a dangerous place! Never mind that city with criminals with axes and guns, and machete fights in the streets and the likes, the woods are far more dangerous! :lmao

Sorry for the derailment, I just can't help but laugh at those dangerous woods!

Back on point: yes, one does wonder how anyone can get through them without a vast number of torches on hand before one enters them! Not sure where he gets the woods=dark places from, but that's just me... Martin does seem to contemplate the consept of transformations taking place in the dark, with sensory deprevations being part of that. Both Bran and Ned is a clear nod in this direction! (And 20 years later he really has overestimated the usefullness of darkness in the long run...)

Jan 5, 2018 22:08:21 GMT arrysfleas said:

'the Others take you' is a common Westerosi curse, no doubt perpetuated by the singers and Old-Nans of this world.
But here, Ben may have just said it more than in jest. We already know that the Others (supposedly) took Waymar and Will. Benjen is well aware of the resurgence of the Others, so this is a show of Ben's edgy state of mind about this situation and perhaps also about taking Jon north with him.

Yes, I was thinking outside the usual meaning of the phrase/curse here. Mainly as that bear fur stood out to me.
Ben could be a bit nervous about taking Jon north as you say. Being part of a brotherhood or not, Ned would probably hold him responsible if anything happened to Jon while he's still so young and Ben knows it. And of course his own affection to his nephew!
And another thing I found a bit odd here, was that Tyrion thinks Jon was screaming at him at one point. One would think the others (no, not Others, just the others) would hear him in that quiet wood. So the most probable explanation is either Tyrion was exaggerating Jon's reaction, and is another pointer to his fallable POV, or Ben heard and basically told Jon to stay closer to camp in the future.

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1.13 Tyrion Jan 6, 2018 23:05:37 GMT shymaid likes this

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Post by stdaga on Jan 6, 2018 23:05:37 GMT

I am not sure why I haven't got around to posting on this thread, but it's well past time. Let's start with a few observations from previous posts.

Jan 6, 2018 17:15:02 GMT Nyx said:

I found the description of Tyrion fascination with dragons, the conversation between Jon and Tyrion as to why he loves reading and what it means to him and its conclusion "there are no dragons" a perfectly rounded nutshell development from childhood to what the Imp is at the moment we are reading this. I can't stress enough how well I find his chapters written. It makes sense these are the ones Martin likes to write the most.

I think we see an innocent, unjaded Tyrion in his memories, with all the hopes and dreams of childhood, and then the more cynical and mean person that he is capable of being all written in a few paragraphs. I see this as hints of how Tyrion tries, and succeeds, at projecting his own thoughts and emotions onto other people and influencing how they think and feel.

Jan 5, 2018 22:08:21 GMT arrysfleas said:

interesting passage. It nearly feels like the author is telling us that we need not agonise over Jon's mother. The only thing that matters is that Jon is a Stark, after all.

It's definitely drawing a connection to Jon as a Stark, and I agree that in the end, that is the most important thing for Jon. And it's the think that Jon still hasn't learned to embrace. Jon doesn't see himself as a Stark, no matter who is father is supposed to be. Jon is caught up in his last name and ignores his blood. People like Jeor Mormont and Qhorin Halfhand can see the blood is what is important, but Jon is blind to it. It is Jon that struggles the most with this idea, and we are along with the ride.

But this passage does draw the reader's attention to Jon's mother, as if almost taunting us with the knowledge that she is important too. And of course, if we look at the opposite of what we are told, which I think GRRM implies that we do, then we are left to think that Jon must have Stark blood from his mother and not his father at all. It's very tricky!

Jan 6, 2018 17:15:02 GMT Nyx said:

I am a fan of Jon’s parentage never being revealed.

I would be okay with this, and actually think that GRRM should do this. Then the entire fan base can continue to think that their idea is correct and there is no confirmation that their preferred parentage theory is wrong. The mystery has grown to be huge in the fandome, so huge that GRRM might feel he has written himself into a mess and is being crushed by tons of speculation, and it would be easiest to not reveal the truth, whatever that might end up being, as to not anger or disappoint some portion of his fan base. But he has previously said we would have an answer, so I expect that he will stick to that statement.

Jan 6, 2018 11:03:41 GMT shymaid said:

An interesting observation of Tyrion here! I can't recall off the top of my head if we get any other POVs of Jon choosing the Wall or having it chosen for him, but here is one that caught on to the fact that he was sent there. Yes, he expressed interest, but if not for Catelyn and Luwin he'd probably make the choice at a later stage.

It's hard to say how this conversation with Jon and Ned went, but Jon tells us in his first POV that he has been thinking about the Night's Watch for a while. How long he has been thinking about it is the hard part to guess. Has it been weeks or a year or more. Now, it's possible that is because Luwin has planted the idea in his head over the course of time, Jon has been thinking about it for years.

It's also possible that Jon admires Benjen, know's that Benjen is coming for this visit, and that is what has started Jon's thought process. This could have all transpired in Jon's head in less than a month.

I would imagine that most people in Winterfell assumed that Robert was coming north to ask Ned to be his Hand, therefore, Jon would be aware that things would be changing at Winterfell. If Ned is gone, Jon might realize his position at Winterfell was not secure, and this knowledge that Robert was coming and probably taking Ned south, which is exactly what happened, is what encouraged Jon to think seriously about taking the black.

Jan 6, 2018 11:03:41 GMT shymaid said:

In other threads the question of Ned's conversation with Jon about going to the Wall has been raised, and we don't get an answer to this here. But we do get an incling with this passage:

"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow. "Well, no doubt the Starks have been terribly good to you. I'm certain Lady Stark treats you as if you were one of her own. And your brother Robb, he's always been kind, and why not? He gets Winterfell and you get the Wall. And your father … he must have good reasons for packing you off to the Night's Watch …"
"Stop it," Jon Snow said, his face dark with anger. "The Night's Watch is a noble calling!"
Tyrion laughed. "You're too smart to believe that. The Night's Watch is a midden heap for all the misfits of the realm. I've seen you looking at Yoren and his boys. Those are your new brothers, Jon Snow, how do you like them? Sullen peasants, debtors, poachers, rapers, thieves, and bastards like you all wind up on the Wall, watching for grumkins and snarks and all the other monsters your wet nurse warned you about. The good part is there are no grumkins or snarks, so it's scarcely dangerous work. The bad part is you freeze your balls off, but since you're not allowed to breed anyway, I don't suppose that matters."
"Stop it!" the boy screamed. He took a step forward, his hands coiling into fists, close to tears.

Now, just before this Tyrion brings up hurting familymembers who wrong you, and implies that Jon has dreamed of doing this as well; he then precedes to goad Jon with pointing out his outsider status in the family. But he also makes the point that it was Ned's decision to send Jon to the Wall. So did Ned frame it through Jon's own wish to go, or more close to the truth with Catelyn refusing to have him under her roof? Honestly, I think it's hard to say.

Tyrion is a bit of an asshole, honestly. He know's exactly how to push people's buttons to get a reaction out of them. He either wants to anger them or make them laugh or sometimes mislead them, but he always has a plan. I don't see Tyrion as very genuine. Most of his interactions have some sort of manipulation in progress. We just haven't seen it much as this stage of the story. The only people we have seen Tyrion antagonize up until this point are Joffrey, the Hound, and Cersei. Now, Tyrion is turning this on Jon.

I speculate that Tyrion is fairly miserable with his traveling situation, and some people just like to make other people miserable to make themselves feel better or powerful. I think that is what Tyrion is doing with Jon. And at this stage, Jon is easily antagonized and manipulated.

Tyrion is partially correct about the wall, but he is not entirely correct. Tyrion is making the wall seem as bad as possible to anger and hurt Jon. Tyrion seems to think he is doing this for Jon's best interest, as if he is helping open the boys eyes. But the wall also has many people who are not rapists, who are not dirty and carrying lice, people who have joined the Night's Watch because they feel it is a sacred duty, or because the don't have other options but are still decent people. Tyrion doesn't give two shit's about those people, and honestly it's not even entirely his fault. Tyrion has not met the Jeor Mormont's of the world, or the Pyp and Grenn's. He hasn't met Ed Tollett or Maester Aemon. He has only his own preconceived notions to go by. And he is trying to poison Jon's thoughts. And he succeeds. And it is only Jon's anger and Ghost's reaction to Tyrion antagonizing Jon that elicits any type of guilt or sorrow in Tyrion for having acted this way. Tyrion is a bully! I wonder how much of Jon's initial actions toward his fellow trainee's at the wall is a cause and effect of this interaction with Tyrion? Some people are bullied, and then react by bullying others. Tyrion bullies Jon and tears him down, and then Jon bullies his fellow recruits, tearing them down, until they fight back, just as Jon (and Ghost) fights back to Tyrion in this scene.

Jan 6, 2018 11:03:41 GMT shymaid said:

Ned's dislike for the Lannisters aren't that big of a secret, but that Benjen shares it even after all these years at the Wall is to me a sign that it probably stems from something they did during RR, and that it's more than "just" killing Rhaegar's children and Jamie placing his buttocks at the Iron Throne. It makes me think they had something to do with what happened to Lyanna, in one way or another. Ben might share Ned's distaste for the murder of children and Jamie breaking his vow, but I'd still say something more has to lie behind these feelings.

I agree that there is something in Ned and Benjen's behavior, but some of this idea might stem from Tyrion knowing on some level that his family is guilty of some great wrong to the Starks. And some of what he perceives as Ned and Benjen showing distaste for the Lannisters might just being the solemness and stoicism that we come to realize is how the Stark's interact with people. They are serious by nature. Robert recognizes this behavior for what it is, and can laugh it off, but Tyrion takes it as a slight and an insult. After all, Tyrion is very like Tywin in this, and Jaime and Cersei too. The pride of the lions is to be noted!

Jan 6, 2018 11:03:41 GMT shymaid said:

Alas, Tyrion, I doubt your revenge is big as you think - even if you think it small. Considering Ned's affinity towards the cold, seen with him standing naked before the open window in Cat II, I'd think Ben has the same thing going. And with him being a ranger who frequent the world beyond the Wall often, he knows cold more than Tyrion might realize at this moment.

Looking back on this passage over the years, I have come to see it as an example of how petty Tyrion can be. And I would agree that Benjen probably managed just fine without the bearskin cloak, and ultimately, it is Benjen whom looks chivalrous, while Tyrion looks spiteful.

Jan 6, 2018 11:03:41 GMT shymaid said:

The teeth were long, curving knives of black diamond

Jan 6, 2018 11:03:41 GMT shymaid said:

For some reason this makes me think of the blades of the Others in the prologue. Also, black diamond is an interesting choice of words, as it's seldom mentioned in the books. But I need to let that simmer for a bit.

I could not let it simmer. I had to look into the "black diamond" that Tyrion associates with dragon teeth, and "black diamond" is only used 10 times in the five published novels. The dragon teeth is the first usage, then it is associated with Joffrey's crown, Cersei's veil, Renly's sword belt, Shae's eyes, the crown Theon has made for himself at Winterfell, a chain that Jaime wears at a feast, Taena Merrywheather's nipples from Cersei's POV, Illyrio's rings, and Xaro Xon Daxos jewels.

So, of a substance that is associated with dragon teeth, we never hear of it in association to the people that many people speculate have dragon blood, like Dany, Jon or Tyrion himself. I love the connection to Jaime, Cersei and Joffrey, as a possible hint to them being Targ bastards. It makes me think that Illyrio does have Targaryen blood, probably through the Blackfyre line. Makes me curious about Shae, who is just a big damn mystery, but once claimed that she ran away from home to stop her father from having sex with her, Taena Merryweather who comes from Myr and about Xaro Xon Doxos (and why he so wanted to marry Dany). Renly has dragonblood through his grandmother, same as Robert and Stannis.

Last of all, he donned his crown, a band of cold iron slim as a finger, set with heavy chunks of black diamond and nuggets of gold. It was misshapen and ugly, but there was no help for that. Mikken lay buried in the lichyard, and the new smith was capable of little more than nails and horseshoes. Theon consoled himself with the reminder that it was only a prince's crown. He would have something much finer when he was crowned king. ACOK-Theon V

Theon is maybe the most curious one for me. How did Theon get the black diamonds? I would bet that he did not find them harrying the Stoney Shore, nor did he bring them from Pyke, so it makes me think it was something he found at Winterfell, something he stole when he captured the castle. But what are gold and black diamonds doing at Winterfell. And are they truly black diamonds or is that dragon teeth in his crown? Certainly the Stark's are probably wealthy, but they are almost always noted for silver in their pins and brooches, and never being ostentatious in their jewelry choices. Is this a hint about Theon or a hint about the Stark's in general? Why are there black diamonds, which Tyrion associates with dragon teeth, at Winterfell?

**Also, a note on Theon dreaming of a fancy and fine crown (more fine that gold and black diamonds?) as King of the Iron Islands. He is so lost to what the Ironborn are that he does not realize that the King of the Iron Islands would wear a simple driftwood crown. Theon is a sad, tragically misguided young man!

Jan 6, 2018 11:03:41 GMT shymaid said:

Is that skull Balerion's skull? Or did they bring the skull of an earlier dragon with them? We never hear about it if they did, as far as I know. But Balerion reaching an age of three thousand years... While dragons live for a long time, thousands of years seems a bit too long imo. So that made me think of stdaga 's speculations about the Targaryens first dragon, and the posibility that this was a red dragon that was later pictured in their sigil. Could that be the skull Tyrion is thinking of here?

I wondered this when I looked over this chapter the other day. We are led to believe that Balerion, Meraxes and Vhagar are the largest of the skulls, so does that tie into the eldest as well? Could a different dragon be 3000 years old, but not be as large as Balerion? I would suppose this could vary depending on diet and freedom to roam. Did Balerion, Meraxes and Vhagar grow so large because they were able to roam around Dragonstone and that area of Westeros with all the food and freedom and space they wanted?

I liked your connection to the possibility of this 3000 year old skull possibly belonging to a red dragon, which I speculate might have been very important to the Targaryen's in the past. It's a red dragon on their sigil, and that stands out to me!

It also made me think of Meraxes, whom was supposed to have been killed when shot down at Hellholt in Dorne. For some reason I thought that neither Rhaenys nor Meraxes was returned to Aegon and Visenya. Any one have a better grasp on this than I do? Because if Meraxes wasn't returned from Dorne, then her skull can't be at the Red Keep in Kings Landing, making this an example of Tyrion being mistaken.

Jan 6, 2018 11:03:41 GMT shymaid said:

One conclution we can draw from this, and is strengthened in later chapters, is that Jon is not a bookish lad. So if he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, she didn't swallow some books and a candle while pregnant! On the contrary, Jon's interest, and talent, lies with the sword. We know that Rhaegar was good with a sword - he did manage to wound Robert at the Trident, but unlike Jon he didn't like it. And I will say Jon likes that dance. Other possible baby-daddies do, with Arthur as the foremost of these. (And Mance, if you want to include him as well)

I agree, Jon is no scholar. That is Tyrion and Sam! Tyrion isn't Rhaegar's kid, but could Sam be? Jon has no interest in books, or so it seems to me. We will see him looking over texts in Dance, but he is doing that out of duty, not enjoyment. It reminds me of Ned going through the lineage book that he got from Pycelle, reading about black of hair and gold of hair. A duty!

Jan 6, 2018 11:03:41 GMT shymaid said:

The second thing I notice is Jon's tendency to take people as they are, and not make a big deal about it. Tyrion expects everyone to always think of him as a dwarf first, but here Jon doesn't do that. Also that Tyrion seem to think all bastards wear their grievances on their sleves, like he does.

Tyrion projects a lot of himself onto the people around him, and I think we are in error to believe Tyrion as much as we tend to. He talks with authority, which makes him seem believable, but that doesn't necessarily make him correct.

Jan 6, 2018 11:03:41 GMT shymaid said:

The third thing, is the consideration in Tyrion's ability to guess peoples ages, which has come up before. This passage seems to show that his guesses are off, but rereading it this time I'm not so sure. Does Jon look that much younger than Robb? Does Robb look twelve? He just thought of seeing the dragonskulls, so is the timeline so far off from his mind? To me it seems like this was more of a sarcastic remark than anything serious, but that's not to say Tyrion is great at guessing ages. Or is right in all of his estimations.

It could be sarcasm. I have never thought of it in that way before. Or it is a way to push Jon's buttons and she what happens.

But my initial thought are that this is a prime example of Tyrion being mistaken. Jon is actually almost 15 here, give or take a month. And Tyrion thinks he is 12. Is Jon that small? Does he look that young? Is this our clue that we should be very careful about how much we believe of what Tyrion tells us in his POV?

Jan 6, 2018 11:03:41 GMT shymaid said:

Firstly, what kind of dragondreams does Tyrion have? Is it the run-of-the-mill dragondreams I'm sure many a child in the Seven Kingdom has had? Is it daydreams? Or is it the Targaryen kind, that we see in several Targaryens?

Does he have dreams like Shireen does. Her dreams involve dragons eating her, I believe. They seem legitimate, but might have less to do with blood than they do with her living on Dragonstone.

As for Tyrion, of course, this is an area of great debate. Many people think this a sign that both Tyrion and Jon have to be Targaryen. Tyrion because of the dreams, and Jon because for some reason, Tyrion seems to think that Jon must dream of dragons too and also wants to light his family on fire, even though Jon never once indicates that he agree's with Tyrion. I think this could be GRRM misleading the audience about both Jon and Tyrion. I have been inclined for a while to think that if any of the Lannister's have Targaryen blood, it is Jaime and Cersei and not Tyrion. I am almost certain that Jon has no Targaryen blood, but partly I want that to be so, so I might see what I want to see!

Jan 6, 2018 11:03:41 GMT shymaid said:

Secondly, to me it seems like Jon doesn't have dragondreams, though his suspicion as Tyrion noticed could be discussed in this direction.

The dreams that we see of Jon's are all about Winterfell or the crypts, nothing like a dragon dream. The one dream in Dance, when Jon thinks "Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame", is more of a image, and might be based on the fact that Melisandre is always spouting about waking dragons from stone. Although, Jon does think of ice dragons quite often in Dance.

Jan 6, 2018 11:03:41 GMT shymaid said:

I'll just note the oddity that Tyrion manages to fall on his back AND get a mouth full of dirt and rotting leaves. Quite an accomplishment, I'd say!

Well, Tyrion got what he deserved. He get's so angry at this, claiming he was humiliated, by Jon and Ghost, I guess, but he brought this all on himself. He was a total ass to Jon, and then when Jon and Ghost fought back, Tyrion sings a "poor me" song. I have really come to question a lot about how Tyrion remembers that he has been treated in the past. He feels very bad for himself, but besides Cersei, I don't really see anyone treating him in a terrible way. Okay, Lysa, perhaps, but she is crazy, and also stuck in a mess of her own making when she claimed to Cat that her husband was killed by the Lannisters, Lysa is now stuck in that lie, and must keep lying so Catelyn doesn't figure it out, and therefore makes outlandish statements toward Tyrion to attempt to distract people from the logic of his words. A tangled web of lies!

Also, this mouthful of dirt and blood and rotting leaves might be a hint to us that we should think of the things that come out of Tyrion's mouth are dirt and blood and rotting, and later, when he get's a mouthful of the Rhoyne, I think it might foreshadow his ultimate fate of either loosing his tongue or having the greyscale paralyze him from the inside out.

Jan 6, 2018 11:03:41 GMT shymaid said:

Just making a short note of this. Viserys wants to call his banners, Ned will make preparations to call his banners if needed a bit later in the book; another possible uncle is Stannis and Renly who both call their banners in a little while. The only possible uncle we don't hear calling his banners in the story is Arthur's older brother, who might still be alive at this time.

I have never given this line to indicate anything but Benjen, but it could very well indicate other men. Ned, if he truly is Jon's uncle, and either Baratheon brother if Robert is Jon's father. I don't connect is as much with the Daynes, but maybe because we never hear of any bannerman of the Daynes. I am sure people must pledge to them, but even in Dorne, there is no mention of the Dayne sigil or her men marching with anyone, I don't think. Just Ned Dayne, who is squiring for Beric.

Jan 6, 2018 11:03:41 GMT shymaid said:

But if it is a clue, does the grumkins come into play? Or the snarks? I'm actually being serious here! If this is the case, who or what is a grumkin and a snark?

Well, I am inclined to wonder about grumkins, but of course, I think they might have stolen Catelyn's real daughter from her cradle and left Arya in her place, so I might not be the best person to ask this question of! :leaving

Jan 6, 2018 11:03:41 GMT shymaid said:

Tyrion was the last to retire, as always. As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and looked back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames.
Tyrion Lannister smiled sadly and went to bed.

Here Jon reminds me of Stannis actually, and reminicent of the Rhollor practice of looking into the flames. So did he see anything?

Tyrion tells us that Jon is looking "hard" into the flames, but is he really staring that deeply? And yes, Stannis does stare into the flames, but so does Ned.

When Tomard had left him, Lord Eddard Stark sat staring at the flame of the candle that burned beside him on the table. For a moment his grief overwhelmed him. He wanted nothing so much as to seek out the godswood, to kneel before the heart tree and pray for the life of Robert Baratheon, who had been more than a brother to him. AGOT-Eddard XIII

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

stdaga
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1.13 Tyrion Jan 6, 2018 23:29:45 GMT arrysfleas likes this

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Post by stdaga on Jan 6, 2018 23:29:45 GMT

Jan 6, 2018 20:42:04 GMT arrysfleas said:

the author is always keen to remind us that forests are 'dark' places. When we get to the Haunted Forest, we are repeatedly told that is it dark, to the point one wonders how anyone can see their way through it.

Melisandre fears the dark. If the forests are considered dark, is that one of the reasons she seems to want to burn tree's, in some misguided effort to take away the dark places of the world, one of which is the forest?

Jan 6, 2018 20:42:04 GMT arrysfleas said:

'the Others take you' is a common Westerosi curse, no doubt perpetuated by the singers and Old-Nans of this world.
But here, Ben may have just said it more than in jest. We already know that the Others (supposedly) took Waymar and Will. Benjen is well aware of the resurgence of the Others, so this is a show of Ben's edgy state of mind about this situation and perhaps also about taking Jon north with him.

This is a nice connection! Does Benjen worry that a supernatural force might have taken Jon? And if so, does Benjen think that the Others could be south of the wall? I had read an idea not long ago that Waymar, Gared and Will were actually ranging south of the wall when they came across the Other's, but in the text, Will thinks they are in the haunted forest and that they have been traveling north for days, into the lands of the wildling raiders, so they have to be north of the wall, but I do like the idea of the text misleading us to think they are north of the wall when they are actually south of the wall, probably in the new gift. There is so much misdirection in the text, and the prologues are full of important information, if only we can decipher it.

Jan 6, 2018 22:54:50 GMT shymaid said:

And I think both get a reality check when they get to Castle Black, even if Tyrion only stayed there for a little while (and forgot most of it when he was in King's Landing).

Just a few days back, I reread that chapter where Alliser Thorne forces his way into court to see Tyrion. Tyrion has ignored the man for days or weeks, and then finally Thorne forces his way in front of Tyrion and tells his tale of the dead rising, Tyrion's own instinct is to remember the feeling he had when he was standing on the wall and listen to Thornes words, he instead uses humor to make fun of Allister, to belittle the man, which in turn causes no one to listen to the words that Alliser Thorne is stating, which are dark and dire and full of the truth! That was a time where Tyrion really messed up! All for his pride!

Jan 6, 2018 22:54:50 GMT shymaid said:

And another thing I found a bit odd here, was that Tyrion thinks Jon was screaming at him at one point. One would think the others (no, not Others, just the others) would hear him in that quiet wood. So the most probable explanation is either Tyrion was exaggerating Jon's reaction, and is another pointer to his fallable POV, or Ben heard and basically told Jon to stay closer to camp in the future.

Does Jon seem like a screamer? I think this is a clue that we should be careful about the unreliable narrator and also, I think it is a clue for us to pay attention to Tyrion. It took me several rereads before I really started to doubt Tyrion's perspective. What I have learned is that Tyrion is never wrong, that if something fails, then it is someone elses fault, and the whole world is shitting on him like a monsoon and he must use trickery as an umbrella to protect himself. It comes back to the idea of his mouth full of dirt and blood and rotting leaves! That is what he is spouting most of the time!

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

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1.13 Tyrion Jan 7, 2018 8:45:13 GMT stdaga likes this

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