Post by shymaid on Jan 8, 2018 8:10:02 GMT
We will get there eventually. We are certainly moving at a slow and steady pace, and while we start with parentage in each chapter, the discussion quickly springs to all sorts of things not even closely related to parentage. However, I have been enjoying the organic nature of the discussions, so I don't mind the pace or the meandering path we are taking.
Haha, starting a new chapter-thread at the start of the year had me thinking about when we started. That was mid september with the idea of taking two chapters a week, and by the start of january chapter 14 is opened! So it will probably take a couple of months to get to chapter 19!
It's not that I mind the way our discussions are going, it's interesting and organic and fun! Just chuckling a bit.
I swear I once read that Viserion had three horns while the others only had two, but I can't find that anywhere, and so I wonder if I had some colorful dreams that confused me! The dragons are different, however, and not just in color.
LOL! While I can't remember reading that, there are things I've swore I read at one time but can't find later!
Even the different colors speak against being replicas of the earlier dragons. They probably differ as much as animals differ within their group in our world, so I don't understand people who think they all have a standard size all achieve.
Your count is fine and I didn't mean to imply that it was incorrect. I have no idea. I would think that Tyrion knows how many skulls he found in the basement of the Red Keep, but maybe they were not all put in the same place. Is it possible that one, or more, might have been shipped back to Dragonstone? I have no idea, I am just wildly speculating! Or even sent to the citadel for research.
Haha, I wasn't sure if my count was correct when I posted, but thought it was close enough to put it out there. As I don't have the Rogue Prince or tPatQ I could easily miss some that wasn't mentioned in the WB.
And I agree with the rest, even if there were 19 in the cellar it doesn't mean there aren't more in other places.
Not blindly glorified, howerver. Jon knows the story of Danny Flint, and there is no glory in her story for the members of the Night's Watch, I don't think. Jon also witnessed the execution of a deserter in our first Bran chapter, so he is not blind to reality of the wall. And Ned tells us that Gared was not the first deserter this year, so I would assume that Jon witnessed those other executions as well. If Jon heard all of the same stories that Old Nan told the others, then he knows of the Seventy-nine Sentinel's, and members who have tried to become King at the Wall, or pass the rule of the wall down to their children. Still, I would agree he has some thought that the wall might have more Uncle Benjen's types and less felons and rapists, when we know that Benjen is but one person, and does not represent each man at the wall.
Jon might be a bit Sansaesque at times, but I don't think he had the fullblown Sansa-view:
She had always imagined the Night's Watch to be men like Uncle Benjen. In the songs, they were called the black knights of the Wall.
If we can use Bran as a guide for the songs and stories the children learned, both Sansa and Jon heard what he did. Sansa still made them out to be shining black knights, and I do think Jon had a bit more neuanced look. As you say, he was privy to more current information through Ned. At the same time, it seems most high positions are taken by men of better families, and those would probably be the names he heard most. And he did meet Royce on his way to the Wall. So his view were probably a bit off.
I think Tyrion was more blunt and brutal in his word choice than he needed to be, but that is just my opinion. It bothers me that Tyrion feels like the victim in this situation, when he instigated the tension. It irritates me that he pushes Jon to the point that Jon (and Ghost) react, and then Tyrion's immediate response is "he felt anger coiling inside him", and it's not "the first time he had been humiliated". Is it humiliating to have fallen over after you have provoked a response out of someone (or thing)? Humiliating that the person you have provoked is asking for some politeness before helping you up? Is it Ghost that has humiliated and angered Tyrion, or is it Jon? Or is it life? I think that Tyrion feels like life has dealt him a raw deal, and therefore it is okay that he uses his sharp tongue and wit's to anger and belittle people. It is actually a little reminiscent of Joffrey's behavior toward people whom he see's as less worthy than himself.
Jon's behavior here isn't ideal by any means. He could have just helped Tyrion up and been done with it. But with each action comes a reaction. If you chose to push, someone might chose to shove back. That is what is happening with Tyrion and Jon. And it happens with all of these characters, over and over again.
Tyrion most certainly passed the line with what he said, and was the one driving the situation. I'm not saying he was right or fair.
I do question Bran's opinion here just a bit. Bran is seven, and so he is not well nuanced in the many ways people express unease. He thinks Jon must be angry with him, as well as everyone, but he gives us no hint at Jon's behavior. I think Jon is perhaps having a hard time knowing he is leaving Winterfell. Of all those kids, it seems like Jon has the strongest attachment to Winterfell. Could Jon be quiet and brooding and mourning that he is leaving his home? Yes. But maybe Jon is angry, too. Angry that he has to leave and angry at Ned. It's very possible, although I wonder at the level of Bran's perception at this age. We are never given any idea that Jon might have yelled at Bran, or said words in anger. I think Jon was withdrawn, and Bran interprets that as anger. I could be wrong.
Well, anger is easy to differenciate from other emotions even for a child, I most certainly did at that age. The reason behind the anger is more difficult to grasp. It is possible Jon was sad to leave Winterfell and acted out in anger, but I don't think Bran was wrong in his assesment in anger being present. Again, we get into personal interpretations.
Hahaha! I am not sure anything would help. And reading all the signatures might just slow him down even more.
That is true...
It might not be laziness, but it is certainly elitism. That might be Lannister elitism. Tyrion might feel like a poor relative, but he is still incredibly arrogant about his family. Jon can help set up camp, and I bet in this small amount of men, Robb probably would help, too.
And yes, Tyrion might have had previous poor experiences with such a situation, but when you are the only person not helping set up a camp, you stick out, and not for a good reason. Reading and drinking wine are leisurely behaviors, and I am sure that is noted by the rest of the party. Benjen and Jon might not even mind that Tyrion doesn't help set up camp, but it would irritate me, and so this is an example of me projecting my feelings onto the characters and possibly misreading the whole situation.
It is hard to say when we don't have the other POVs. The others might very well see his physical problems, being stiff and all after a long day in the saddle, and concluding it's better he just stayed out of everybodys way.
Exactly! On all points! It becomes incredibly tricky and complicated.
Indeed!