1.14 Catelyn III

I think questioning the coloring as the major descriptor is very fair. We do often hear of the Tully's based on their auburn hair and blue eyes, and I believe they are noted to be tall, but that is about it. Does wild little Rickon actually have Ned's face with Cat's coloring? It's very vague, as our author is so very good at doing.

I suppose if she would have said "his father Eddard Stark in his face" it would have taken all of our fun away. Does Robb have some Stark features we are not told of? It seem's unlikey, and in this case, I am inclined to think the part of Ned she see's in Robb is in a sternness or quirk of Ned's, but I can't imagine if Robb is Ned's son (or even if he is Brandon's son) that Robb would not have some Stark-like physical features. I even think that Cat thinks Robb looks like her brother Edmure, but that could just be the coloring, too.

And with the physical descriptions being so vague, I am inclined more to look at behavior's in Robb, to help determine parentage. Robb seem's hot-headed and that is a trait we are told about related to Brandon. However, I would say that Rickon might also be considered hot-headed and I find it very unlikely that Brandon is Rickon's father since he's been dead for many years. Although Rickon is only three at this point in the story, and most three-year old children have some impulse issues.

The firstborn doesn't stand out to me so much, but the "my son" is a bit more odd. Still, I think at times Catelyn refer's to Bran and Rickon as "her son's" and Arya and Sansa as "her daughter's", so it's not completely without precedent in the story. As you stated, she is a bit possessive about her children.

However, if she is using the term "her firstborn" as a way to differentiate between "Ned's firstborn" as a son of Winterfell, if she indeed suspects that Jon might be older, then this could be Catelyn's way to put her son ahead of another son of Winterfell, even if it's in her head.

This does make some sense, if one thinks that Catelyn is more concerned with Brandon's heirs, than her own, but later she tells us that she feared Jon would have heirs that would challenge her own children's right to Winterfell.

She includes her grandchildren (which could come from any of her children, not just Robb) in this thought, and so she seems more concerned with her "own blood" inheriting Winterfell than either Brandon or Ned's Stark blood. Her blood is in any of her five children born of her marriage to Ned, no matter who the sperm donor is (expect for Arya, who is probably a grumkin!!!)

It's possible that she is thinking of Brandon the eldest and Robb the eldest, and how different things might have been in all of their lives if Brandon had not rushed off to the capital and died. And she doesn't put up much of a fight over Sansa or Arya going to Kings Landing, but she does argue for Bran, so possibly it is a male/female distinction she see's. She want's the male heirs to stay in Winterfell, close to their seat of power, perhaps.


Is this the quote you are talking about?

I think this quote is used to argue that Cat and Ned wed on some prearranged wedding date, a date she was supposed to marry Brandon on, but since he was dead, she married Ned on the same day. Since we know the timeline means that Brandon rode of to KL, Rickard rode down to KL from the north (or at least after raising 200 soldiers) and both died, Aerys asked for Ned and Robert's heads, Jon Arryn raised his banners, Ned traveled to the north to call his banners, marched south and fought in the battle of the bells before wedding Catelyn, people argue that Ned must have married cat on the same "date" as she was supposed to marry Brandon, only it had to be a year later, because there was no time for all of that to happen and Ned still marries Cat on the "date" in the same year as Bradon was to wed her.

I don't interpret the quote like that. I see the idea of "the day" as more vague, as in "the wedding day" as opposed to "the wedding date", like June 11th, this year or next year, or something. But the line is vague, as much of GRRM's writing, and open to debate.

I think it really stretches the time line as well. It was probably months (at least six at a average guess) between Brandon's leaving Cat and the earliest Cat and Ned could have married. She would have been noticeably pregnant at that time, although I suppose depending on her dresses, such an advanced pregnancy could be hidden from most people, but not Ned, who shared her bed on their wedding night. So, if she was pregnant with Brandon's child, then Ned knew about it. And if Hoster was trying to bargain off this very pregnant daughter to Ned, then Ned would have the majority of the bargaining power, and maybe could have gotten Hoster's army without both he and Jon Arryn having to wed. Besides, I am sure the Battle of the Bells was before Cat and Ned's wedding, so Hoster had already agreed to fight with the rebels, but if Cat was pregnant with Brandon's child, I can't see Hoster marching off the battle without taking care of Cat's situation before Ned continued to battle. It's dumb all around if she had a baby already on board.

Still, the other argument is that Ned was forced to marry Cat to give his brothers's bastard a name, and that does seem like a Ned thing to do. But as I mentioned above, then it all should have been done before the Battle of the Bells, not after it. Ned could have died and Hoster would be stuck. Also, I don't see how Ned gives up a wife to do it, so if he was involved with Ashara before this, I don't think they were wed, but they might have been thinking about wedding. Still, if Cat knew that, would she be so stupid to ask Ned (in bed after sex) if Jon was Ashara's when she would know that Ned gave up his love to give her and Brandon's bastard a name. It just defies logic for Cat to be so stupid, unless she didn't realize Ned gave up a fiance for her. So many possibilities but I can't think any of them have me convinced. I feel a bit disorganized, so I hope that made some sense.

It is interesting, and I enjoy word connections like that. And maybe it makes some sense out of Quentyn's bizarre story line, if indeed it is trying to tie in to the Stark inheritance as a clue.

I agree that Rickon is hard to judge by, because of his youth, and because of the probably influence of Shaggydog.

As for personality being the key, the direct interpretation would be that Robb acts like Brandon, therefore he is Brandon's son, while Jon act's like Ned, therefore he is Ned's son. But the opposite could be true, were as Robb acts like his uncle Brandon while Jon acts like his uncle Ned.
And all of those children could be Ned's seed, but each of them acts differently, because that is how life works; some like Ned, some like Cat, and some like other mysterious parents yet to be named, some acting like uncles and aunts or grandparents.

Personally, I tend to see a fair amount of Robert Baratheon's behavior (the temper, the laughter, the charisma, the leadership, the warrior) in Robb, and while I have speculated in a tinfoily way that maybe Robert is Robb's father, it's VERY unlikely. However, Robb is probably named for Robert, which could be a mere sign of respect, or it could be a huge hint. I am open to lot's of possibilities. I do think that Robert Baratheon and Brandon Stark were very alike, and similar "types" of men, so that might be why those traits in Robb stand out.


No matter what is going on in her head, the north knows Robb to be Ned's eldest trueborn son. Even if he is Brandon's seed, legally he is still Ned's son, so I don't think Robb can be placed in a different category than Bran or Rickon, no matter the truth of his father. It's really no different than Jon, if he is not Ned's son. Who ever planted the seed, Ned claimed them both as "sons", only one is trueborn and one is bastard born. And that only applies if they are not Ned's actual bio-son's.


It could be a parallel. But then does that imply that Lyanna knew something that she shouldn't, therefore she became a target that needed to be taken care of? Is that what Rhaegar and his buddies were doing when they rode out from Kings Landing all those years ago, but something went wrong? But Bran's fall/push was the result of a spontaneous impulse in Jaime, so I think any initial injury to Lyanna would have been impulsive, as well. The catspaw was not impulsive, but I don't know that the Lannister's are involved. Something about that whole situation seems to relate back to the Bolton's to me.

Also, Brandon rode to Kings Landing, and Robb never did, but they both still ended up dead. Their ultimate fate was not any different, but still tore the country apart with their actions.

I don't favor that theory. I think Ned and Cat got married on some random day that had nothing to do with any specific date, or any previous day that lined up with Brandon or Cat. But I have seen the "the day" of the wedding argument being that it must have been a year later specifically. I was just trying to help you out with a quote, if indeed that was the one you were looking for.

I would agree with this, but there is a tempting vagueness in the text, and that is what most tinfoil is built on, mine and other peoples. So, Robb as Brandon's son remains a possibility.


As a Labor and Delivery Nurse, I find those people who claim they don't know they are pregnant until they are in labor to be completely lying or completely not in tune with their bodies. As for how people carry, it's true that some people don't look as pregnant as others, based on height or weight, or torso length or ips, but Catelyn is said to be slender, and the more slender you are, the easier it is to notice an advanced pregnancy.

For the sake of argument, it is possible that Hoster didn't know about a possibly pregnancy of Cat's until after they returned to Riverrun after the Battle of the Bells. And if he had already had Lysa abort a pregnancy (which seems to haunt him) then he would probably not repeat that action with Cat, and would try to find another solution. Marrying her to the brother of the man who's baby it was does have a certain symmetry to it, as at least Cat's child would be of Stark seed, no matter who planted it. This is a possibly scenario, for sure.

The idea that Ned was raising Brandon's bastard as his trueborn heir, while he has to raise his own son as a bastard, would be very ironic. Still, I have a hard time thinking Jon could be trueborn to complete the inverse, as I don't see how Ned would put aside a wife, even if he didn't know she was pregnant. I have OotGH Ned/Ashara in mind right now and some of it's a stretch for me. But I guess this could be some of the "broken promises" that haunt Ned.

Hahaha! Poor Robert just wanted to celebrate his brother's wedding and Stannis has been grinding his teeth about it ever sense!

I have really never compared Bran and Lyanna's possible connections, but Bran's "accident" is the catalyst for a lot of the War of the Five Kings, and it seems that we are lead to believe, while not directly being responsible, it is hinted that Lyanna's "kidnapping and rape" is a catalyst for the War of the Usurper, while not being the direct action that started the war! GRRM does like echo's and parallel's and inverses, if only we know which one he is aiming for in this case.

Since we just reread that chapter, Cat III, there are some interesting similarities between the man who attacked Cat while trying to attack Bran, and the description we get of Theon as Reek. No missing fingers or anything so obvious, but the Catspaw smells terrible, and it is Theon comments on it (which would be ironic in the extreme if the Catspaw and Theon are both something that has been created by Ramsay's cruelty, and everyone comments on how bad Theon/Reek smells).

Theon as Reek has almost white hair (Theon's hair was black before), he is skinny because he can't hardly eat as he has so many damaged teeth, he is nearly skeletal and looks like he is an old man. Could the Catspaw be a young man who fell into Ramsay's clutches and is a version of Reek? The man says "s'posed" and that could indicate he is uneducated, but it might also be how a person talks if they have a lisp, or have a mouthful of missing or broken teeth. It certainly didn't take long for Theon to become Reek, less than a year, I would say. So, Ramsay could have done this to someone else in not much time. There is also the aspect of the dog's barking, maybe because of this man, and Ramsay's dogs certainly bark around Theon. And the fire to the library tower, when we know that Ramsay will later set fire to Winterfell, and we even see Roose burning books at Harrenhal.

And while it's all tempting speculation, I cannot see how the Catspaw got his hands on that valyrian steel and dragonbone dagger, unless Littlefinger or Varys was involved with the Bolton's long before Ned went south, which would make Roose's plot of a very long and calculated nature. That is hard to imagine. Or an even more crazy thought is that Robert was involved with the Bolton's, as it was his dagger. I suppose it's possible that the dagger was just stolen, but it has to have a purpose or connection as a clue to someone that we don't suspect.

And, of course, all of that has NOTHING to do with parentage of anyone, so I will move on from my derailment now!

Sometimes, when we have some down time at work, we have watched some of these programs and debate how any of it could be possible. Sometimes we watch terrible video's of wounds and surgeries, or look at the worst possible xray's we can find. Kind of a sick bunch of people, actually! 

It's a possibility that Hoster never knew, but it's also likely if he knew, he found out after the Battle of the Bells. It's one of the only things that even slightly makes sense for Hoster. If he knew of a Brandon/Cat pregnancy before he and Ned marched to Stoney Sept, then Hoster is taking a huge risk that Ned or himself don't die before the situation is settled. And I don't think Hoster Tully was either stupid or a risk-taker.

I agree on how much we need to "stretch" things to make it work, and it doesn't feel right to me, but I think we need to be open to the possibilities of Robb being Brandon's son. Ned certainly does have a martyr like aspect to himself, however. Marrying his brother's fiance, whether she was with child or not, is asking a lot. And then Ned's confession of treason on the steps of the Sept of Baelor to save his daughter, even knowing she was the one who betrayed his plans to Cersei! Screams martyr to me!

Oh, never underestimate Stannis' ability to grind teeth!


The similarities are there, the question is how much and in which way. It is interesting that this chapter is followed by Sansa I, as that can tell us much of what happened with Lyanna in the early stages. We only have to break the code!


Well, there are some similarities imagery wise, but I don't see enough for the catspaw to be a Ramsay-creature. Seems more like forshadowing to me, but I could be off on that.

Agree on the dagger, but I'm not sure it would point to any cooperation between the Boltons and someone south. It's possible, but also it could just be the Boltons wanting to stir the north-south pot to gain a better foothold in the north (if they were behind this attempt). I'll have to look for more clues as we reread! And I'll stop continuing this derailment as well...


Ummm, I won't comment on this...





While I doubt B+C=R, I keep the possibility open. As with rlj, I'll note it when I see it even if I'm not on the train.

Well, Ned's whole arc screams of martyr imo...

I can't not see the Stark/Bolton power struggle when I look at the north anymore. I think it's possible that as soon as the strength at Winterfell went south, and by that I mean The Ned, then Roose might have started to chip away and cause dissent. He is cool and calculated and subtle, and I think he has used Ramsay has his weapon since he brought him back to the Dreadfort, how ever long ago that was, or maybe even before, if he encouraged Ramsay to kill Domeric. Since it's vague how old Ramsay is, or how old Domeric was, or when Domeric died, it's all hazy. Just something about Ramsay setting fire to Winterfell in Theon's last chapter in Clash, and the fact that Roose has been noted to be burning books, makes me tie the library fire the night of the catspaw incident as well as Bran's murder attempt together. It's an interesting choice of blade that the catspaw uses, Valyrian steel and dragonbone. Of course, we think it's a clue on who sent the catspaw, but it seems more obviously a misdirection or an attempt to cast blame elsewhere, but I have become more curious about what the catspaw's blade was made of? We know that Ned was killed with Valyrian steel, and Valyrian steel was sent to kill Bran. Is the type of metal important? Was there something special about the type of sword that Robb was stabbed with?

I just have a feeling that Stark's might not be as easy to kill as a regular person. After all, Robb had taken three arrows, a non-fatal one in the leg, but also one under the shoulder and one in the chest, and he was still alive and talking. Bran fell a long distance and should have died, but did not. We don't know what happened to Benjen but I doubt he is dead. And Jon, how many blades did he take from his black brothers and I truly doubt he is dead. If Stark's do share the blood of the Other's ( ) and if the Other's can be killed only with Valyrian steel (), which is perhaps what dragonsteel means, and obsidian, then perhaps it is VERY important that the catspaw was using Valyrian steel to attempt to end Bran's life.

I cant seem to stop the derailment I am on!


Absolutely. All of the above, or it might mean nothing, and GRRM just needed a reason for Robb to go to the window, not that he was seeking the night air, but that he needed to see that the Library Tower was on fire. Plot! I might be ridiculously over analyzing the plot when it's really all about momentum and pacing and hitting key points.

However, I have been trying to note Stark "tell's" in the text, and I like to think this is one of them. Doesn't help us determine if Brandon or Ned is Robb's father, but it cools my tinfoil on Bobby B the King Bastard-maker of the story!

I just read through this a couple weeks ago and that didn't stick at all. I guess it is pretty good information, as all the other things that Lady Hornwood tells us (and the people at Winterfell) are accurate. There just seems to be something very off about the Roose/Domeric/Ramsay dynamic, and the story that we are told, and I can't ignore the statement about Domeric being able to outrace Lyanna. 


Or, could Roose have been talking about Rickard Karstark? Except that doesn't make sense for a couple reasons, 1) as he talks about Lord Rickard's daughter in the past tense, as if she was dead, and  Alys Karstark is very alive, unless that person at the wall is an imposter, and2) we are told that Alys Karstark was to marry Daryn Hornwood before his death. However, it's possible that Alys Karstark was a friend to Domeric and not a marriage candidate. The only other Lord Rickard we have in the north is Rickard Stark, and his only daughter that we know of is Lyanna, unless Rickard Stark has another daughter, a bastard girl somewhere in the north. Highly unlikely, however! 

Maybe it's my mistake to read this as an actual race or episode of riding between Domeric and Lyanna, and perhaps it is Roose's estimation of a race between the two, but it's worded as if it happened. And if the timeline you present for Domeric being only 17-18 when he died and that was two years ago, and we know that Lyanna died approx 15 years before, and the age of 15, this all just makes no sense. And if it's just an estimation, why not compare Domeric to Brandon, another male, as opposed to a female. Odd, I tell you! But, I will over focus on this detail, and maybe someday it will all click into place for me. Or not! 


I did a quick search last night at work, and it's not just Ned and Robb. Arya, Sansa and Jon all seek the cold/cool night air, and I have not looked into Bran yet and who knows when it comes to Rickon. Dany also does, which is interesting. When I have a bit more time I will have to post some of the quotes. I guess it doesn't need to be a Stark thing, as I suppose it could be a GRRM thing!

I think Domeric's age is very vague, and that is on purpose.

We don't know the ages of any of the Redfort son's that Domeric was supposed to be friends with but we know this about Lord Hornton Redwood, their father.


The grey beard is debatable as far as age goes, however, Lord Redfort is considered elderly. He is called old by Littlefinger, and even if we dismiss Sansa/Alayne speaking naively in her youth, the man is still old enough that he didn't climb up to the Eyrie, but was winched up in a basket, when a man like Bronze Yohn Royce (probably around 40), who is no doubt older than Ned was, as the youngest of his son's, Waymer, was older than any of Ned's children at Winterfell, climbed. Horton Redfort has four sons, and we are told by Mya that the youngest is Mychel.


Mya is probably about 18 years old, and I would think Mychel is her age or a bit older. But he is the youngest of Horton Redfort's sons, and his brothers could all be quite older than he is. Horton is said to have married three times, and Mychel could be from his last marriage, but the others could be much older and from the first or second marriage. These older brothers could probably range anywhere between 20 and 40, I would guess. We have nothing to go on.

Still, to argue a bit about Horton Redfort being "old" or "elderly" these seem to be terms associated with Anya Waynwood, and she has a son, Donnell, who is 20, according to Catelyn. Could be a late child or she could be younger than Littlefinger and Sansa let on, but I am betting on a late child, as her eldest son Morton has a son named Roland, who is elder than Harold Harding.

Some of the ages come from Winds, so I will use a spoiler tag.



So Anya Waynwood has a grandson that is older than her youngest son. A boy of 25 would have a father who is probably 43 years old at the least, if he was 18 when his son was born. This could have happened in the Redfort family to, and these elder children could closer to Domeric's age than Mychel.

Domeric could have been as young as Mychel, who is probably 18, or as old as the theoretically eldest brother from a first marriage who could be as old as 40's, like Roland Waynwood's father. I am probably just arguing to argue, but I don't think Domeric's age is as clear as many make it seem, including the wiki age calculator.

I think the line "He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort", is interpreted as a straight line that leads from the Dreadfort at a certain age, to Barrowtown, to Redfort (which oddly enough rhymes with Dreadfort) and back to the Dreadfort, but Domeric could have spent time elsewhere in between, or he could have stayed in the Vale much longer than people think after his training is done, since he might not want to go home to dear old creepy Dad. Domeric might never have become a knight because that is not the way's of the old gods, but he could have been much older than we think.

And, I recognize we are not going to agree on this, which is fine. The debate has been interesting, however, as I hadn't delved into the ages of several people in the vale, and now I have.