1.15 Sansa I

This made me think of "To be, or not to be, that is the question." for some reason.

Anyway, a thought just hit me. As I'm not in the rlj camp, one problem that pops up is taking the letter to GRRM's editor in consideration if Jon is infact the son of Ned. As the letter outlines their (or one of them) relief of not being brother and sister after falling in love, how can Jon be a son of Ned's? Unless he really was planning a double-incest but fooled his publisher, that is. But suddenly I remembered something that was discussed in Jon I (I think) of Benjen having at least one bastard, and if so he had girls. What if Arya really is Ben's daugther, that Ned is raising for some reason, and managed to a) fool Cat somehow or b) threatened her to take her?
I admit I find it a bit hard to believe, but there are hints in the text of this possibly being the case. So is Sansa wrong? I have no idea! But it is fun to play with!


That is definitely possible! It's a question I have asked myself several times.


This is certainly one way of her questioning this. Another is if Cat accidentally let something slip, that Sansa overheard, one time. One thing that Cat does throughout her arc (minus the first chapters) is telling herself that she speaks too harsh etc. We mostly see her telling things the worst way, but when walking an emotional tightrope it's easy to say something that she wasn't supposed to. And if Sansa picked this up by hearing something that she wasn't supposed to, it it similar to Aryanne reading the letter she (supposedly) wasn't meant to see, and plans based on this follows some years later.

I thought about going back through all the previous chapter posts and quick quoting every comment I have made about grumkin's and Arya, but I decided that was just too time consuming. Besides, I don't know if we need all that, all over again. Although, shymaid , is correct when she says I hold this tinfoil dear to my heart!

The text has already told us, in Arya's first POV, in Cat's, and now in Sansa's, how different that Arya and Sansa are. And not just in looks, although that is illustrated to us several times.

First of all, I would like to point out, between Ned and Septa Mordane, no one is keeping a close watch on these girls. Arya is off who knows where and Sansa is just off galavanting all day with Joffrey!!! And while Ned is off on a hunt with the king, it seems like Septa Mordane is responsible for the wellbeing of Arya and Sansa, and she doesn't even know where Arya is, and is asking her eleven year old sister about it. Septa Mordane needs to maybe get her ass out of bed a bit earlier and push away the honey comb and do her job! Had Septa Mordane been paying attention, the whole incident with Arya, Sansa and Joff and the Trident would never have occurred. Plot, I guess!


Let's get to the passage that ignites my tinfoil like a sparkler on the 4th of July.


So, here we have a huge drop of information. Sansa and Arya's age difference as well as their nearly polar opposite behavior and looks. Sansa does compare Arya and Jon in looks, and notes that this is the look of the Stark's while not looking like the Tully's, in either feature or coloring. Now, why Sansa thinks it would be easier if Arya was a bastard just like Jon is perlexing to me. Easier how? Maybe just so Sansa can ignore Arya, or not have to spend this time with her, because it seems certain that if Arya was a known bastard, Ned would not be taking her to Kings Landing.

In this chapter, Sansa describes Arya as "scrawny" and "with a horsey grin" and "long horsey face" she wishes Ned would scold Arya "to behave herself and act like the highborn lady she was supposed to be". This is maybe our first hint that Sansa is questioning Arya's highborn birth. We also get "long face" and "brown hair" as descriptors of "the Stark look". Later in the story, we are told that Sansa as Alayne is both tall and fair, so unlike scrawny Arya, and as shymaid , commented in previous threads, the horse face, long face and horsey grin are also idea's that Sansa attributes to Arya. Now, whether these are insults or clues, I am not sure, but perhaps both. According to Sansa, Arya has the look of the Stark's, as does Jon. Is it possible that some of Sansa's less than kind behavior is because she herself doesn't carry any Stark like looks, and maybe that is upsetting to her?

As to the "scrawny" idea, I have wondered if it is possible for the blood of the CoF to sneak back into the Stark blood line through genetics of a thousand of years, or if it needs to be re-injected. Arya seems to be rather small, and often described as skinny. Bran will later think that Leaf reminds him of Arya. Is it possible that the grumkin that is involved actually didn't leave Arya in a cradle while sneaking the trueborn daughter of Winterfell away, but stuck into Ned and Cat's marriage bed, possible skinchanging one or the other, and leaving a little bit of themselves behind. That is probably the most wild thing I could imagine, and not what I favor, but I suppose it's possible.

As discussed up thread, there is the idea that maybe Arya is Benjen's child, either by an anonymous woman, or by Cat herself. I am not inclined to blame Benjen for this, as I don't think he and Ned would be on okay terms if this was the case. Besides, there is really no reason that Benjen's bastard could not be raised just fine not snuck into Ned's household, so I am inclined to think that Benjen isn't responsible for Arya. Actually, I don't think Benjen ever comes up in Arya's thought process. I did a quick search and the only time that Arya ever thinks of Benjen is when Yoren comes to visit Ned in Kings Landing. Not one other time in the story does she think of Benjen, and it seems like he is almost a non-entity in her story.

Okay, if Arya is not Ned and Cat's trueborn child there are three options that I can see. One is that she is Ned's bastard, one is that she is Catelyn's bastard, and one is that she is neither of their child.

If, she is Ned's bastard, he either snuck her into Catelyn's nursery, with Cat unaware, or he placed her in Catelyn's nursery, and Cat is very aware and there is nothing she can do about it.

If she is Cat's bastard, Ned is either aware or he is not aware.

If she is neither of their child, just whose child is she and how did she get into a Winterfell nursery?

The most interesting idea is the "grumkin" idea, which has already come up in conversation with Jon and Tyrion, and in that conversation, grumkin's and snarks are something that is attributed to being north of the wall, and to Tyrion himself. Now, I don't think Tyrion has anything to do with Arya's parentage, but what if Arya has some blood from north of the wall?

So, could a grumkin, not Tyrion, but a person north of the wall, have placed Arya in a Winterfell nursery. It's possible that Arya as an infant coincides with Lord Commander Qorgyle and Mance Rayder's visit to Winterfell when Robb and Jon were "babes in arm's". Was that winter or a late summer snow that helped Robb and Jon with their snow ball war? I am unsure, but if it was winter, then I am more inclined to think that it is Sansa who was the grumkin baby, and if it was summer after that winter, then I am inclined to think it was Arya. Sansa's thoughts that she and Arya are not sister's is intersting, and she could be correct while she is incorrect. Correct that they are not sister's, but incorrect about which one of them was replaced by a grumkin. Now, this could indicate either a baby snuck into Winterfell, or a seed snuck into Catelyn's bed, making Sansa the bastard and now Arya. This might be hinted at later in our story when Sansa is demoted to bastard status in the vale. Just thinking out loud, but I like the idea that Sansa is the bastard.

Mance is an idea that pops up for Jon's father, and I suppose he could be a candidate for Arya's as well, whether he placed his own child in Wintefell's nursery, or planted the seed in Cat! But I don't favor this idea.

And while I think it's possible that Cat could have cheated on Ned after their marriage, I do not find it very likely at all. Unless Cat isn't aware a grumkin snuck into her bed. I do think that Catelyn's response to Sansa's question is a bit odd.

"Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true."

Catelyn doesn't laugh often in the text, I don't think there is much laughter in her. As a matter of face, the only two times in the text I can find her laughting are 1) after the Catspaw attack and Cat is laughing hysterically, and 2) during the Red Wedding, and Cat is laughing hysterically. These are both times of intense stress. Now, I am not saying that Cat was laughing in a hysterical manner to Sansa's question, but why laugh at all? It could be Cat's reaction to covering up a lie! Sometimes people have a tell when it comes to lying, and maybe Cat't tell is laughter? Now, maybe those were happier times and Cat laughed often and well, but that is not the Catelyn Tully Stark I see in the books. She is not a woman for easy smiles or easy laughter. Or maybe she once was, but life in the north took that spark away from her?

The other think I think is odd, and this was raised up thread was the idea why Catelyn would lie about this, and the word in that sentence that I have focused on is "want". Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true. Maybe Catelyn didn't want to lie, but had too? To cover her infidelity, or to cover Ned's? Either is possible.

I have origonaly thought that Arya's conception or birth year should fall in line with the Greyjoy rebellion. That was nine years ago and Arya is nine at the start of our story. I understand a nine-month gestation is a long period of time, but GRRM is vague about the timeline as far as early in the year versus late in the year, and we get neither bit of information about the Greyjoy rebellion. My pet theory is that Ned had a child with the same woman who is Jon's mother, and this time, when he brought that child home, he made sure that she would not face the stigma of a bastard name. Now, Ned's word is law in the north, especially at Winterfell, and perhaps he has forced Cat into agreeing to this farce. Still, this doesn't seem very like Ned.

I am more inclined to think that perhaps Catelyn had a child that was sickly and died (her mother had a history of this) and without Cat's knowledge, Ned and Luwin stuck another infant into the nursery, a baby Arya. If Ned got this child on an ironborn woman, that could fit Arya's bloodthirsty nature. She also fits the concept of a wildling pretty well, and the text even comments on her dirty leathers, and wearing the same clothing days in a row, which, we do see wildlings as well as peasants, do. Arya reminds me a bit of Asha Greyjoy, in behavior.

Or, as my Lyanna-died-much-later-than-people-assume tinfoil hat, that Arya is Ned and Lyanna's second child. But this is really crazy talk and I am aware of that. Feel free to think I am nuts!

Still, I think it's very possible that Ned or Luwin was the grumkin that snuck Arya into the family, but Catelyn doesn't know. Luwin is likened to a rat once and also a squirrel, hiding things up his sleeves. Maybe he pulled a babe out of his sleeve once? But on some level, she might suspect, and that is the cause for her possible uncomfortable laughter when Sansa questions her.

Another part of that statement that I feel is rather odd is "Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood". Blood of their blood, huh? So, "blood of my blood" is used pretty frequently in the text, and always when speaking of the Dothraki. Now, Catelyn's wording to Sansa is a bit different, with a "their" instead of "my", but the feeling is similar. Now, I am not thinking that Arya is half Dothraki, but she is certainly a good rider, and that is something that is attributed to Lyanna, as well as Brandon Stark. The Dothraki are considered excellent riders, likened to centaurs. It also brings to mind House Ryswell, whom we are never told that the members are good riders, but they have a horse on their sigil and seem to breed fine horses, if what Barbrey tells us is true.

For a long time, I have been perplexed by Barbrey Dustin, and the strong feelings she expresses about Ned. It's possible true, and if that is the case, what is the reason that she could hate him so much. Is it really over her husband's bones not being brought back to the north? I find that very doubtful. So what? Sometimes the ones we love the most are the easiest to hate if they cross us. Did Ned cross Barbrey in some way? In Jon's story, he takes Gilly's child from her and gives her Mance's son to raise. Jon knows its for the best but he also understands that Gilly will never forgive him, or will always hate him (I can't find the quote so I am possibly twisting the words, but not the meaning). Could Ned have taken a child from Barbrey Dustin, and this is why she will never forgive him. It's either Jon, and that leads me to think that Jon is Brandon's, or it's possible that Ned and Barbrey maybe had an affair, and she is either Jon or Arya's mother. I don't think it's Jon that Barbrey is associated with though, with either Brandon or Ned as the father, because GRRM has implied that the clues to Jon's parentage are in the first book, and Barbrey is never mentioned. But could she be Ned's lover and mother of Arya? It's crazy talk, but could he have convinced her that Arya was better raised as his trueborn child than her bastard. Ned probably could not have claimed Arya as his bastard by Barbrey as he might have feared how far he could push Cat with Jon's safety? Barbrey Dustin is pretty interested in fake Arya(Jeyne) and she might not be sure at first if Arya was an imposter or not. I think she must have figured it out, like many in the north, or she would not have let her daughter fall into Ramsay's hands. Ramsay is a sadist and Barbrey isn't stupid!

I can come up with many wild idea's, but the one's I find most plausible is that Arya is Ned's bastard, and he placed her into Cat's nursery and Cat is unaware, whether that mother is Lyanna (whom most people think is already dead), Barbrey, some ironborn woman, a wildling or camp follower.

The safest bet is that Arya is the trueborn daughter of Ned and Catelyn. And so is Sansa, but it would be very ironic if she had it almost right when she speculated that grumkin's had stolen  a trueborn sister of Winterfell, except it was she herself who is the grumkin, not Arya!

I apologize for all of my rambling. Perhaps I should have just quick quoted all my previous tinfoil!


On to a few other possible clues in the text:


A direwolf used for a wet nurse. It seem a pretty innocent comment at first, just droll humor at Sansa's expense. But ... we are given the name of a wet nurse in this story that is associated to Jon and that is Wylla. Wylla is also the name that Ned gives to Robert as Jon's mother, although Ned acts incredibly uncomfortable and most readers think he is lying. But I don't think he is lying, I just think he is telling Robert only part of the truth about Jon's mother. But in the case of this usage in Sansa's chapter, the wet nurse (Wylla) is considered a direwolf, which feeds my tinfoil that Wylla is a pseudonym for Lyanna, (the she-wolf, the wolf maid), the wet nurse is actually the mother! Of Jon, most likely. And possibly of Arya, if Lyanna lived longer than is commonly thought. I really think that GRRM layers stuff amazingly well into his story, and we do get a mention of Jon earlier in the chapter, along with Arya and grumpkin's.

A few observations on Renly and Joffrey:


This is our first interaction between Renly and Joffrey, but Sansa can sense the anger in Joff, and Joff seems to take quick exception to Renly's glib remarks. Then later ...


Pure loathing! This is such strong wording. I am curious to Joff and Renly's previous interactions. There is no love between the two of them, but I wonder on some level if Joff is aware when he looks at Renly, what a Baratheon man should look like and now like Robert that Renly is, while Joff has none of the Baratheon traits. I would like to think that this could imply that Renly suspected about Joff's parentage, but after having just reread Renly and Catelyn's reaction to Stannis letter about Joffrey's bastard birth, I don't think Renly had a clue. But I do think Joffrey might have suspected. And that might be why he doesn't hid his loathing for his uncle, his very Baratheon uncle!

Another Joffrey insight in this chapter, is this:


Of course, later we get confirmation of Joff's parentage, the Lannister blood, of Cersei and Jaime's incestuous love, but these hints in the above paragraph scream fire and blood to me. The Targaryen words! And Joff's behavior mirror's the character of Aerys! And I think that here, in this little blip, we are getting a hint of the truth of Jaime and Cersei's Targaryen blood via Aerys! Pure speculation, but eyes on fire, and the temperamental and irrational and cruel behavior is really what we are lead to believe about Aerys. It's almost like a madness in Joff. Joffrey seems like he could be Aerys' mini-me! And a bit like Viserys act's at times!

There is probably more of my rambling about hints than actual hints in this chapter. I actually think there are a few more things, but I am going to pass on them for now, as I have drug this on long enough!

I can buy Ben as Arya's father, but I am convinced that Cat is her mother, likely with Ned unaware. It does beg the question, how would we ever find out? Only if Ben knew and still lives.

We never get any hints of that, I don't think. And much of Sansa's less than kind behavior is Arya's spin on behavior that is not so outrageous and sometimes not even unkind. Even the incident at the Trident was a test of divided loyalty, where she chose to defend the honor of her betrothed.

I hadn't really taken not of this little bit of information. Fun!

I happen to be someone who tends to laugh under stress. This tends to drive my card partners crazy, but it isn't much of a tell since I want to laugh if I have a great hand, a terrible hand, am bluffing, or am bidding on a strong hand.
But for the subject at hand, I hadn't noticed the pattern (does 2 events make a pattern?), but it could point to Cat's knowledge that Arya's heritage is not what she represents

I am curious why you are so certain that Catelyn is Arya's birth mother? As Sansa tells us, Arya has "nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring". I am not discounting that Catelyn probably is Arya's mother, as I think it would be very hard to sneak a baby into the Winterfell nursery, but it could be possible, if not likely. I actually much rather like the idea of Sansa being the child left by a grumkin, just because she never suspects that it could be her who is not the trueborn child of her parents marriage. Irony is a weapon GRRM is not afraid of!

It is unkind to call your sister Horseface and to make fun of her with your friends, and that Sansa does this in her own thoughts by calling Arya's smile horsey, and thinking she will always embarrass her is also rather unkind.

I don't blame Sansa for the mess at the Trident, as it all happened rather fast and she wanted both Arya and Joff to stop. Joffrey is the most to blame, as his actions toward Micah are completely out of line. And even when Sansa is called before the king, she might have been persuaded to tell the truth if Arya had not physically attacked her, so Arya is to blame for that behavior. At the same time, Arya hasn't eaten for four days and had to force Nymeria away from her, so she is probably not thinking clearly. Still, Sansa is asked to tell the truth, and she chooses to pretend she doesn't remember, when Ned himself claims she has already told him what has transpired, so she is somewhat responsible for how that confrontation in front of Robert went. But her unkindness to her sister is what I note. Sansa is not always unkind toward Arya, but enough so that it has left an impression.

I laugh at stressful times, also, mostly to release tension, I suppose. I just don't see Catelyn as a very jolly person, and her laughter is rare in the text. It would be interesting if Cat did have a different father for Arya than Ned, as she would have every reason to need to hide that information. And I think that Benjen would be the only Stark left to plant that seed, because Rickard and Brandon are certainly dead by Arya's conception. I do wonder for how long Ned and Cat's marriage has been loving? Is it possible she could have cuckholded him, and with his own brother. Arya has to have Stark blood, so it would have to come from Ned or Benjen. Unless Luwin and his grey eyes is a hidden Stark? It would be ironic in the extreme if Ned discovered that Robert had been cuckholded and that none of his children were of his own seed, while being completely blind to the nearly exact situation in his own marriage and family. Would GRRM do that to poor dead beheaded Ned? Maybe!

But still, as I just posted up thread, Catelyn seems thinks of Arya as trueborn, and she thinks of her children with Ned as Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon. However, of those 6 direwolf pups, two are very different than the others. Jon get's the white pup, and Rickon get's the black, although Shaggydog was a grey pup to start with. Does that tell us something about Rickon's parentage, or just his temperment? But Sansa doesn't think Rickon was left by grumkin's, only Arya. It's fun to speculate about however, during the long wait until we get another novel, if we get another novel! 

Thanks for the link! This is interesting. The story has flairs of possibly Ned/Cat/Ashara in the north (and possibly baby Jon) but also in the south, as the daughter of this marriage Jeanne/Joan was not allowed to inherit the throne (even though she was declared legitimate) because she was a woman, which has flashes of Rhaenyra. Certainly GRRM borrows from history, and then mixes it up in different ways. 

As to the language idea, English is my first and only, and sometimes I can't spit out a sentence that makes sense to save my soul!

It's most likely that the 5 children stated to have been born of Ned and Cat's marriage are truly their biologic children. That is what I like the best, but this story isn't about me liking stuff. I would like Ned to not be dead, but that isn't the case. Still, I wonder that GRRM planted those little niggling thoughts in the text. After all, Sansa says this so matter of factly, but that is just how she stated to Ned that Joff was nothing like Robert that typed Ned off to the truth. So, while Sansa didn't understand what she was feeling, she still recognized it. In Joff, and maybe in Arya. But the idea she has about Arya might not lead to the same conclusion as it did about Joffrey. Or it's telling us that Ned was blind to what was going on in his own household. That is part of GRRM being so damn tricky. He might have put that grumkin hint into the text, to distract us (which it's doing) or to make us look at Arya or Sansa or to make us look at either Tyrion, whom is responsiple for the first grumkin comment we have, or to Jon, who is also part of that conversation with Tyrion, but also is likened to Arya in that thought by Sansa.

Maybe we are meant to look at Jon as the child left by a grumkin. After all, Sansa does mention Jon's parentage in that same passage, so mayhaps that was meant to be a clue to the reader that something more is up with Jon, but by pointing a crooked finger toward Arya, who is so like Jon. Maybe Jonno will have a "midichlorian's" type of father, although I think that is one of my lest favorite concepts from Star Wars, and I doubt GRRM would use it. But maybe ...

As far as Arya not resembling the Tully's, I don't think Sweetrobin favors the Tully's in looks, either. I wonder what baby Tully/Frey will look like? It's so interesting to me that Arya doubts her mothers love (after Arya killed someone, is filthy and ragged) and I wonder what led up to that belief? There has to be something besides just being a scared kid. As was mentioned early, sometimes Catelyn can speak bluntly and harshly. I don't think Sansa ever doubts Catelyn's love for her. Bran doesn't. We don't get in Robb or Rickon's heads to know about them. Just Arya.

Really, GRRM gave us almost nothing to go on with interactions between Cat and her children. She directly only interacts with Bran, but while he is in a coma, and Robb. We get a bit more with Ned. I think he has personal interactions with all of the children but Rickon, but they still don't give us much insight to a relationship. Except I think it's far to say that Ned loved them all. I think Cat did too, but her choices are very odd at times when it comes to them. She let's go of the girls in her heart, then she smother's Bran with herself, and then drops him like a hot potato. Rickon she has no interaction with at all. Still, when she free's Jaime, it is with the idea of freeing Sansa and Arya. Cat never gave up hope that Arya was alive, and I think that does tell us that she cares, and that she does think that Arya is hers. I think Cat has strong instincts like Sansa, and I think Cat "feels" like Arya is alive, which does indicate a connection between the two.

Hopefully if we get another book, I will be distracted by new tinfoil and will stop focusing on this!


It's probably nothing more than me focusing, and over thinking, on a weird phrase from the text. And it's always best to go with your gut instinct, so if you don't feel this, then maybe there is nothing to it.

Your mention of the Waif is interesting, however. Isn't she supposed to be in her 30's? I don't know why I think that though. Either way, her stated age is older than Arya, but possible it's around the same age as Sansa. It seems like she must belong to an important house, and that her story line interacts with Arya's is probably important to who she really is. I have wondered if she might be related to Brienne in some way, but I can't connect the dots. The ages probably don't match up, anyway. And it makes more sense for the Waif to be from the north, just because of Braavos' proximity to the north.


No, Sansa isn't a monster, but she is very different than Arya. People do tend to appreciate tomboy's, and Arya certainly has that vibe. What is interesting about Sansa, is GRRM writes her in rather an unlikable way even from her own perspective as well. Not maliciously mean, but naive to the point of blindness, and that does grate a bit. The showdown at the trident not withstanding, it comes down to Sansa telling the truth or not telling the truth that sets people initially against her. We are told to tell the truth in life, even if it might not be the safest course. Then, the naive conniving with Cersei behind Ned's back, cost's not just Ned, Sansa, and Arya, but the whole of the Winterfell household at court. And yes, Sansa was played by Cersei, but some of it is her own fault, and I don't think she ever really realizes it. Her head is still in the clouds or in the songs, however you look at it. Sansa probably has the strongest possible redemption arc of the Stark children, because I think she has erred the most, even if it wasn't malicious. Time will tell if she is able to overcome that.

Interestingly, one thing that both Arya and Sansa have in common is a selfish streak! Arya does what she wants and what makes her happy, in spite of her her mother, her sister and her septa feel about it, or anyone else, either. Sansa does the same, but her choices at least fit the idea of a southron lady, of which Catelyn is and raised Sansa to be. And Sansa hides it behind the idea of "proper behavior" but it's still what she wants to do. If we are to learn something of Lyanna's story in both Sansa and Arya's arc's, I wonder how that selfish steak played out in Lyanna?


This sounds interesting. I would agree that Cat is much more about duty than passion. You should share! You know I don't shy away from tinfoil and cracked pot's, and I think exploring those ideas is how we stumble onto truths that are woven into the text.